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  #31 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 21, 2020, 02:14pm
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Citations Please ...

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Originally Posted by johnny d View Post
It has also been shown that often times wearing masks actually increases the risk of becoming infected. Many people are under the false impression that wearing a mask is an extremely effective deterrent. If you are not wearing an N95 mask, then your mask is only a slightly effective deterrent. Hygiene, especially hand washing, social distancing, and not touching your face repeatedly are all much better deterrents than mask wearing. Unfortunately, because of the false sense of security people get while wearing a mask, they tend to exhibit more reckless behavior. They social distance less, they wash or sanitize their hands less often, and touch their faces much more often. Combined these increased bad behaviors often outweigh any benefit derived from wearing the mask in the first place.
Sounds quite logical, but citations please.

Outweigh by exactly how much? How much more often?

I actually touch my face far less while wearing a mask, maybe not my eyes, but definitively my nose and mouth.

Sometimes logic and science don't agree. Many believe that the period of a pendulum (the time it takes to swing) depends on the height from which the pendulum is dropped, or on the mass of the pendulum weight, but neither has absolutely no effect on the period, only the length of the pendulum string effects it's period in the real world (for non-excessive angles).

Most people logically think that a feather will be less attracted in the real world by Earth's gravity than a lead weight. Not so, the only reason the feather falls slower on an Earth with an atmosphere is due to aerodynamic drag and surface area. Back in 1971 Apollo astronaut David Scott, while on the surface of the Moon (with no atmosphere) dropped an aluminium geological hammer and a falcon feather, and they hit the ground simultaneously. Galileo did something similar in 1589, dropping cannonballs of various masses off the Leaning Tower of Pisa.

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I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Sat Aug 22, 2020 at 11:55am.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 21, 2020, 02:35pm
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The Plague Has Left The Building ...

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Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
I hate myself for dropping into your off topic valley, but I was trying to think of the name of that movie the other day after I saw his name in an article.
It's actually not as far off topic as one would think. Imagine if we could all easily identify all those with the coronavirus (meaning much easier than our current level of testing and contact tracing). The healthy would easily be able to avoid those infected. Those infected would easily be able to avoid the healthy. We could all quarantine, or wear masks, when necessary and appropriate. The "plague" would soon end.

This scene alone should have earned Rowdy Roddy Piper an Academy Award nomination.

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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36)
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 21, 2020, 02:44pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LRZ View Post
I volunteer at a hospital and I too am bombarded with information, none of which is as cavalier about the dangers of COVID-19 as you seem to be.

I'm also aware of how little was initially known about coronavirus, a plausible explanation for erroneous prognostications and medical advice and information that later changed as we learned more.

You handle medical wastes, I recall you saying in another thread. You have also referred to nurses in a way that suggests that you are neither a doctor nor a nurse. Regardless of your official job title, it's clear from your posts that you are in the "exaggerated peril" or "hoax" camp. Some of us prefer to be more cautious.
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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
There were reports that other people at that rally discovered they had the virus after that rally. So either way, it goes he got it and the fact we do not know where is a problem. So to say let us not worry about that without some level of caution is silly. My wife works in a nursing home and is in a nursing home that has patients with Covid-19 brought to their building. Not everyone is dying, but people have gotten sick. So why put us in harm's way without some better information of how you can contract this virus?

Peace
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Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
That's me, and and a lot of other people. Are we expendable? Should we be ignored? Since we're going to die sooner rather than later just toss us to the side of the road like unwanted trash, or maybe put us on an iceberg and let us float away into oblivion.

Since masks do little (maybe some, but not a lot, may not stop the virus but may decrease the devastating effects of the virus) to protect us, we count on others to wear masks to protect us. It's the patriotic and caring thing to do.

Thank you for wearing a mask, even if it does fog up your glasses.

You should ask New York and Pennsylvania's governor's that question. I point those numbers out to show who are the at risk groups.

The caring thing to do is get the healthy people back to work ASAP. N We're doing decades worth of damage to the economy. Not to mention mention what it's doing to the youth. Suicide statistics are growing more alarming .
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 21, 2020, 02:53pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB View Post
You should ask New York and Pennsylvania's governor's that question. I point those numbers out to show who are the at risk groups.



The caring thing to do is get the healthy people back to work ASAP. N We're doing decades worth of damage to the economy. Not to mention mention what it's doing to the youth. Suicide statistics are growing more alarming .
Might come as a surprise to some people, but even before this virus came along there were a lot of people in our nation's workforce who are not healthy or have comorbidities. So unless everybody takes it seriously when it comes to social distancing and wearing masks when you can't, it's going to be hard for businesses and schools to open up and stayed manned without outbreaks. And you can't put those business-killing attitudes and behaviors on the governors of Pennsylvania and New York. The cavalier approach to fighting this virus started way back in February and was constantly reinforced for another 4 months.

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Last edited by Raymond; Fri Aug 21, 2020 at 02:55pm.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 21, 2020, 03:10pm
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Normal ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB View Post
The caring thing to do is get the healthy people back to work ASAP. We're doing decades worth of damage to the economy. Not to mention mention what it's doing to the youth.
100% agree. But if we get back to "normal" work and school too soon, and in a careless manner, the house of cards will come tumbling down again. Lots of sick workers, sick consumers, sick teachers, sick students, and sick and overworked health care workers, as well as the additional dead, will not allow us to sustain a "normal" economy and education system for very long.

What is so hard about wearing a mask? Yesterday I had a young cashier at the drug store tell me that all this mask wearing may lead to a less impactful annual flu season.

I sure hope that he's right. Imagine COVID and influenza giving us a one-two punch this coming winter.

__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Sat Aug 22, 2020 at 01:22pm.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 21, 2020, 03:16pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
100% agree. But if we get back to "normal" work and school too soon, and in a careless manner, the house of cards will come tumbling down again. Lots of sick workers, sick consumers, sick teachers, sick students, and sick and overworked health care workers, as well as the additional dead, will not allow us to sustain a "normal" economy and education system for very long.

What is so hard about wearing a mask? Yesterday I had a young cashier at the drug store tell me that all this mask wearing may lead to a less impactful annual flu season.

I sure hope that he's right. Imagine COVID and influenza giving us a one-two punch this coming winter.
Respiratory viruses have not cared about masks in the past.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 21, 2020, 03:41pm
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Man, Woman, Birth, Death, Infinity ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB View Post
Respiratory viruses have not cared about masks in the past.
Tell that to Dr. Ben Casey and Dr. James Kildare.





Vince Edwards and Richard Chamberlain didn't go to medical school and only played doctor characters on television, but their characters both earned M.D. degrees, and the shows had medical consultants.

They mostly wore the masks to prevent the spread of bacteria and fungi, but masks do have some effect on viruses.

For many years, scientists weren’t sure whether wearing a mask was effective at preventing the spread of viruses. However, recent studies suggest they can help. One 2013 study looked at how masks could help people with the seasonal flu limit spreading it when they exhale droplets containing the virus. Overall, researchers found masks led to a more than threefold reduction in how much virus people sprayed into the air.

Another study, analyzing data from thousands of Japanese schoolchildren, found that “vaccination and wearing a mask reduced the likelihood of developing seasonal influenza.”

Importantly, researchers also found that flu rates were lower when masks were paired with proper hand hygiene.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Aug 21, 2020 at 04:07pm.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 21, 2020, 03:43pm
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The other thing about masks is that like vaccines, many people don't like something that only works part of the time. At best that makes it seem like a placebo and allows a false sense of security and you do things that you wouldn't do had you noybworn the masks.

If it showed 100% effectiveness, we wouldn't be having this debate. Many conservatives early on offered that if everyone wore masks and we got to keep everything running, we'd of done it. If I was really worried about the virus, I'd be looking for a gas mask or a closed system respirator but those tend to freak people out.

Last edited by SNIPERBBB; Fri Aug 21, 2020 at 03:47pm.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 21, 2020, 04:15pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB View Post
Many conservatives early on offered that if everyone wore masks and we got to keep everything running, we'd of done it.
I almost believe this. If we did this (everyone wore masks) from the initial (February, 2020) get go, the "plague" wouldn't be over, but we'd be in a much better place right now.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Aug 21, 2020 at 04:17pm.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 21, 2020, 04:59pm
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PPE Shortage ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
If we did this (everyone wore masks) from the initial (February, 2020) get go, the "plague" wouldn't be over, but we'd be in a much better place right now.
Easy for me to say.

Back in February, 2020, medical and research professionals believed that asymptomatic spread (I don't even remember hearing about presymptomatic spread back then) did not occur with the novel coronavirus. And they were worried that if everyone started wearing masks that there wouldn't be enough to go around for the health care workers that were taking care of coronavirus patients (remember back then there was a PPE shortage), and for patients that actually had the virus and its symptoms who could actively spread the virus to others.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Aug 21, 2020 at 05:01pm.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 21, 2020, 06:07pm
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If you recall, people were being told they didn't work at that time. The shows I listened to while the virus was still only in China that were already doing research was saying that n95s would be better to get in case it came here.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old Sat Aug 22, 2020, 12:19pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB View Post
If you recall, people were being told they didn't work at that time ...
What's they? Didn't work doing what? Not sure what the point is?

Yes, medical and research professionals made some early mistakes, but these mistakes weren't quite as simple as some make them out to be, these scientists were not a bunch of nincompoops (a word often used by my German grandmother).

I do recall medical and research professionals saying (incorrectly) that masks wouldn't be necessary (except for those infected and for health care workers), not that they didn't work, but because they believed that asymptomatic spread did not occur with the novel coronavirus.

I also recall medical and research professionals saying (somewhat incorrectly) that anything short of an N-95 mask (like a cloth surgical style mask) would do no good protecting one's self (didn't worry about protecting others because they didn't believe in symptomatic spread).

Scientists have known for a long time (certainly pre-COVID-19), that cloth surgical-style masks were somewhat effective at preventing the spread of viruses exhaled in respiratory droplets.

In any case, "at that time" (early 2020), they were incorrect about asymptomatic/presymptomatic spread, and they may have been somewhat incorrect that cloth surgical style masks would do absolutely no good protecting one's self (as it turns out they may somewhat reduce the devastating effects of the virus).

Other than finger pointing, why live in the past, science marches on with further research.

That's how science works. Aristotle believed in the Theory of Spontaneous Generation. Pasteur proved Aristotle wrong. Science was wrong for 2000 years, but it moves forward, it moves on, that's science.



This novel coronavirus was a brand new human disease in late 2019/early 2020. We learn new things about this novel virus all the time.

Science now tells us to socially distance, wear a mask, and to wash our hands.

It's the best scientific advice we have right now, that advice may eventually change, but until that time we should follow the most up to date advice that we get.

Socially distance (minimum six feet) when possible; when not possible to socially distance wear a mask (for those who medically can) to protect others (and possibly one's self); and wash our hands (or use 80% ethanol or 75% isopropyl alcohol hand sanitizer) often.

It's science, and it's our best bet to get through this in the short term, with as little suffering and death as possible, and to get our economy, education, and health care systems back on track, on track with all of us healthy enough so these systems don't collapse again.

It's the same science that may eventually come up with a safe effective COVID-19 vaccine, or much more effective COVID-19 treatments.

Or we can do nothing, back to work, back to school, no social distancing, no masks, no hand washing, no testing, no contact tracing, treat it like the flu, but with no vaccine. Allow Darwin's Natural Selection to take over, with active immunity building up, and the fittest surviving after a lots of suffering and death and ups and downs with our economy, education, and health care systems.

That's also science.

I chose the former.

Anybody 100% all in with the later? I'm 66, have a heart condition, and have already survived one heart attack. Should I find myself an iceberg? Anybody want to go 50/50 on buying an iceberg for two?

I would like to spend a little more time with my four grandsons before I go to the happy basketball court in the sky. Is it too much for me to ask everyone to wear a mask (I'm sorry that your glasses fog up)?

__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Aug 23, 2020 at 10:46am.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old Sun Aug 23, 2020, 07:33am
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Originally Posted by RefsNCoaches View Post
WAYGD? What are you gonna do?

Obviously things are still fluid around the country with respect to HS team sports...Football getting ready to kick off....Volleyball playing....A friend of mine who is a V football official attended his daughters V VB contest and they made spectators wear masks. In game participants and officials did not but bench people did. Okay, I guess that's good...also a limited number of tickets available to each player's family and they were required to check in and have name checked off the list before allowing entry.

So we are all curious what's going to happen with hoops...but what are YOU going to do? Do you have concerns? Have you decided you'll bypass officiating this year? Mask, no mask, mask with the gonzo nose/regular whistle, regular mask and the handheld whistle?

WAYGD?

Me...I'm still up in the air. I don't really want to wear mask officiating and refuse to use handheld whistles as I think they suck and you can't really hear them.

Where's your head at right now in August with respect to officiating basketball?

We got off topic.

I have a military restriction that is making the decision for me. We are in a category 3 (of 4) health protection condition (we call it HPCON) in my area and until that falls a notch, I cant gather in groups larger than 10 and cannot participate in any group exercise. So by logical interpretation, that precludes me from officiating. I told my assignor as much and he graciously understood. From the tenor of one of his recent emails, I get the feeling about half of our normal group of folks who work summer and fall basketball arent willing to or able to work right now, and hes not at all ashamed to tell his customer leagues that he cant help them when he cant. Were indispensable to the game and the league coordinators know it. Unless they budge from their historical $25-30 per game fees, few of us will be wooed.

If the HPCON is lowered, Ill open myself back up to being assigned and carry on. Id probably wear a mask into and out of the facility, during halftime, etc. But not while actually working. I would if the sport didnt involve a whistle, but with a whistle its just not practical. Id also probably sanitize frequently and follow other state/league guidelines that are being put out.

If I take it seriously and follow the precautions and rules, Id say my chances of acquiring the virus wouldnt be all that much higher than picking it up while going to pick up food at a restaurant or shopping at a grocery store. Thats why Id be comfortable coming back.


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  #44 (permalink)  
Old Sun Aug 23, 2020, 09:05am
LRZ LRZ is offline
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Whether or not I wear a mask while refereeing is only part of the equation. Isn't the other part of the problem that players will not be wearing masks and thus projecting droplets, to which officials will be exposed?

When I shop or pick up take-out, the employees are always masked. That is different from officiating, where players are not masked, and that would make the risk greater.

"It's the best scientific advice we have right now, that advice may eventually change, but until that time we should follow the most up to date advice that we get." BillyMac, that is the wisest thing you have ever said on this forum.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old Sun Aug 23, 2020, 10:18am
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It Eventually Had To Happen ...

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Originally Posted by LRZ View Post
"It's the best scientific advice we have right now, that advice may eventually change, but until that time we should follow the most up to date advice that we get." BillyMac, that is the wisest thing you have ever said on this forum.
Thanks. Even a guy who still wears a black belt while officiating basketball games can occasionally get lucky and come up with a good post. It was my first good post in fifteen years and over 18,000 posts. Statistics and the law of averages said that it eventually had to happen. Don't hold your breath until the next one.

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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Aug 24, 2020 at 12:35pm.
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