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Team control throwin. Foul purposes only
Can someone please post the interp/Poe where NFHS made clear TC is only for foul purposes. A cite will do. Thx much
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Team Control Foul ...
Basketball Points of Emphasis - 2017-18
Team control, throw-in. The relevance of team control during a throw-in only applies when a member of the throw- in team fouls. Such fouls shall be ruled team control fouls. Team control during a throw-in is NOT intended to be the same as player control/team control inbounds. Team control inbounds is established when a player from either team who has inbound status gains control of the ball. During the throw-in, 10-seconds, 3-seconds, frontcourt status, backcourt status, closely guarded, etc., are NOT factors as there has yet to be player control/team control obtained inbounds. |
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Contact Above The Shoulders ...
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Stupid NFHS. |
Annual Interpretations ...
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SITUATION 3: Team A is making a throw-in near the division line in the team’s frontcourt. A1’s throw-in is deflected by B1 who is applying direct pressure on A1. A2 jumps from the team’s frontcourt, catches the ball in the air and lands in the backcourt. RULING: Backcourt violation on Team A. The throw-in ends when it is legally touched by B1. When A2 gains possession/control in the air, he/she has frontcourt status. A backcourt violation has occurred when A2 lands in the backcourt. (9-9-1, 9-9-3) SITUATION 4: Team A is making a throw-in near the division line in the team’s backcourt (Team B’s frontcourt). A1’s throw-in is deflected by B1 who is applying direct pressure on A1. B2 jumps from his/her frontcourt, catches the ball in the air and lands in the backcourt. RULING: Backcourt violation on Team B. The throw-in ends with B1’s deflection (legal touch). When B2 gains possession/control in the air, he/she has frontcourt status. A backcourt violation has occurred when B2 lands in backcourt. (9-9-1, 9-9-3) SITUATION 5: Team A is making a throw-in near the division line in the team’s backcourt (Team B’s frontcourt). A1’s throw-in is intercepted by B1. B1 jumps from his/her frontcourt, catches the ball in the air and lands with the first foot in the frontcourt and second foot in the backcourt. RULING: No violation, legal play. It doesn’t matter if one foot lands before the other provided it is a “normal landing.” Since there was no deflection, the throw-in had not ended. (9-9-1, 9-9-3) SITUATION 6: Team A is making a throw-in near the division line in the team’s frontcourt (Team B’s backcourt). A1’s throw-in is deflected by B1 who is applying direct pressure on A1. B2 jumps from his/her backcourt and catches the ball in the air. B2 lands with the first foot in the frontcourt and second foot in the backcourt. RULING: Backcourt violation on Team B. The throw-in ends with the deflection (legal touch) by B1. B2 gains possession/control and first lands in Team B’s frontcourt and then steps in Team B’s backcourt. The provision for making a normal landing only applies to the exceptions of a throw-in and a defensive player, and is only for the player making the initial touch on the ball. (9-9-1, 9-9-3) SITUATION 7: A1, in the team’s frontcourt, passes towards A2, also in the team’s frontcourt. B1 deflects the ball toward Team A’s backcourt. The ball bounces only in Team A’s frontcourt before crossing the division line. While the ball is still in the air over Team A’s backcourt, but never having touched in Team A’s backcourt, A2 gains possession of the ball while standing in Team A’s backcourt. RULING: Backcourt violation on Team A. Team A was still in team control and caused the ball to have backcourt status. Had A2 permitted the ball to bounce in the backcourt after having been deflected by B1, there would have been no backcourt violation. (4-4-1, 4-4-3, 9-9-1) SITUATION 8: A1, while dribbling the ball in the frontcourt near the midcourt line, has the ball strike the midcourt line and as the ball comes up from the dribble, A1 touches the ball and continues to dribble. RULING: Backcourt violation. A1 may not be the first to touch the ball in the backcourt if he/she or a teammate last touched or was touched by the ball in the frontcourt, before it went to the backcourt. (9-9-1) SITUATION 9: A1 has the ball for an end-line throw-in in his/her frontcourt. The administering official reaches a four-second count when A1 passes the ball to A2, who had been standing in the free-throw lane since A1 had the ball at his/her disposal. RULING: Legal. Even though a team is now in control during a throw-in, the three-second rule specifically requires that a team be in control in its frontcourt for a violation to occur. Technically speaking, the thrower-in is out of bounds and not located in the frontcourt. (4-35-2, 9-7) SITUATION 10: A1 has the ball for an end-line throw-in in his/her backcourt. The administering official reaches a four-second count when A1 passes the ball onto the court. A1’s pass to A2, who is also in Team A’s backcourt, takes several bounces and six seconds before A2 picks up and controls the ball. RULING: Legal. Even though a team is now in control during a throw-in, the 10-second rule specifically requires that a player/team be in continuous control in its backcourt for 10 seconds for a violation to occur. Technically speaking, the thrower-in is out of bounds and not located in the backcourt. (4-35-2, 9-8) SITUATION 11: A1 has the ball for an end-line throw-in in his/her frontcourt. A1’s pass to A2, who is in the frontcourt standing near the free-throw line, is high, bounces several times and goes into Team A’s backcourt untouched. A2 is then the first to control the ball in Team A’s backcourt. RULING: Legal. There is no backcourt violation since player control and team control had not yet been established in Team A’s frontcourt before the ball went into Team A’s backcourt. The throw-in ends when A2 legally touches the ball in the backcourt and the backcourt count starts as soon as A2 gains control in his/her backcourt. (4-12-2, 9-9) SITUATION 12: A1 has the ball for an end-line throw-in in his/her frontcourt. A1’s pass to A2, who is in the frontcourt standing near the division line, is high and deflects off A2’s hand and goes into Team A’s backcourt. A2 is then the first to control the ball in Team A’s backcourt. RULING: Legal. There is no backcourt violation since player control and team control had not yet been established in Team A’s frontcourt before the ball went into Team A’s backcourt. The throw-in ends when A2 legally touches the ball, but the backcourt count does not start until A2 gains control in his/her backcourt. (4-12-2, 9-9) |
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Peace |
Casebook ...
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4.12.2 SITUATION B: During a throw-in by A-1 from the end line by Team A’s basket: (a) A2 is in the restricted lane area for four seconds of the throw-in count; or (b) the throw-in is touched by A2 before it goes across the division line where it is recovered by A3. RULING: Legal in (a) and (b), even though Team A is in team control during the throw-in. There is no three-second count in (a) since team control had not yet been established in Team A’s frontcourt. There is no backcourt violation in (b) since team control had not yet been established in team A’s frontcourt before the ball went into Team A’s backcourt. The throw-in ends when A2 legally touches the ball, but the backcourt count does not start until A3 gains control in his/her backcourt. (9-7, 8, 9) |
Pleistocene Epoch ...
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Are we supposed to depend on the oral tradition of old, grizzled, veteran officials telling stories to young'uns around blazing campfires? This is the twenty-first century, not the Pleistocene Epoch. http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/...historic_c.jpg That's Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. in the lower right of the cave painting, eating his medium-rare Woolly Mammoth. He's getting ready to tell his "Change of Status" story. |
Team Control Foul ...
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4.19.7 SITUATION D: A1 has the ball for a throw in. The throw-in pass deflects off of A2. As A2 and B2 are attempting to retrieve the loose throw-in pass, A2 illegally pushes B2 from behind and is called for a foul. Team B is in the bonus. RULING: Team A is in control during this throw in, therefore a team-control foul has been committed. B2 is awarded a throw in at a spot closest to where the foul occurred. (4-12-6) |
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Riddle Me This ...
A1 has possession out of bounds for a throwin. Before A1 releases his throwin pass, A2 sets an illegal screen against B2. Team control foul charged to A2. No free throws for B2.
A1 has possession out of bounds for a throwin. A1 releases his throw pass and A2 catches the ball inbounds, obtaining player control inbounds and thus team control. A3 then sets an illegal screen against B3. Team control foul charged to A3. No free throws for B3. A1 has possession out of bounds for a throwin. A1 releases his throw pass and A2 catches the ball inbounds, obtaining player control inbounds and thus team control. A2, after catching the ball (holding, possession) immediately fumbles the ball. During the fumble, A3 sets an illegal screen against B3. Team control foul charged to A3. No free throws for B3. A1 has possession out of bounds for a throwin. A1 releases his throw pass and A2 touches the ball inbounds but never obtains player control inbounds (no holding, no possession), and thus never obtains team control inbounds. The legal touch by A2 inbounds ends the throwin. During the loose ball, A3 sets an illegal screen against B3. Team B is in the bonus. Is a team control foul charged to A3 (thus no free throws for B3), or does B3 shoot free throws? |
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Team Control Ends ...
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4-12-3: Team control continues until: a. The ball is in flight during a try or tap for goal. b. An opponent secures control. c. The ball becomes dead. I got sidetracked by the throwin ending. |
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Your description (no holding, no possession) contradicts the rulebook definition of "fumble." If there was no holding/possession (i.e. player control) then the player could not have "fumbled" the ball. Better not to have used the word or perhaps substituted "deflected" or "muffed." |
Fumble ...
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4-21: A fumble is the accidental loss of player control when the ball unintentionally drops or slips from a player’s grasp. |
The Throwin Ended ...
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2011-12 Basketball Rules Changes Several definitions were changed to reflect that team control will now exist during a throw-in when the thrower-in has the ball at his/her disposal. The change primarily affects how foul penalties will be administered. Definitions within Rules 4-12-1, 4-12-2 and 4-12-6 were changed to reflect that team control will now exist during a throw-in once the thrower-in has the ball at his or her disposal. The new rule will no longer grant free throws to the defending team in the bonus if the throw-in team commits a foul. Team Control During A Throw-In (4-12-1, 2, 6): Several definitions were changed to reflect that team control will now exist during a throw-in when the thrower-in has the ball at his/her disposal. The change primarily affects how foul penalties will be administered. By changing the definition of player and team control to include a throw-in, greater consistency in penalty administration for a common foul is achieved. Under the previous rule, because there was no team control during a throw-in, the penalty for a common foul committed by the throw-in team after the throw-in had begun resulted in free throws if the offended team was in the bonus, which was inconsistent with the penalty for a team-control foul in non-throw-in situations. The rules change will result in greater consistency in penalty enforcement and expedite the contest by eliminating the delay inherent with administering free throws. 2014-15 Points Of Emphasis Team Control Status During Throw-in. Team Control Status Inbounds - Since a 2011-12 rules change, team control exists during a throw-in when the thrower-in has the ball at her/his disposal. The change was made only to eliminate the penalty of administering free throw(s) when a teammate of the thrower-in commits a common foul during the throw-in. The change made the penalty consistent with the penalty for other team control fouls. The penalty now is the awarding of a throw-in to the opposing team at the spot out-of-bounds nearest to where the foul occurred. In my play, the throwin ended. 4-42-5: The throw-in ends when: a. The passed ball touches or is touched by another player inbounds. b. The passed ball touches or is touched by another player out-of-bounds, except as in 7-5-7. c. The throw-in team commits a throw-in violation. I'm not saying that Camron Rust is incorrect, but would like further discussion. I know that I'm being too literal, but is this yet another example of the NFHS using inexact language? Not only does the NFHS state "during a throw-in", but it also states "when the thrower-in has the ball at her/his disposal". Also, the NFHS states "exists", not "begins". In my play the throw-in had ended, and the ball was no longer at the disposal of the thrower-in (and team control had not yet been established inbounds). 4-12-2: A team is in control of the ball: a. When a player of the team is in control. b. While a live ball is being passed among teammates. c. During an interrupted dribble. d. When a player of the team has disposal of the ball for a throw-in. https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.j...=0&w=300&h=300 |
Passed Among Teammates ...
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4-12-2: A team is in control of the ball: a. When a player of the team is in control. b. While a live ball is being passed among teammates. c. During an interrupted dribble. d. When a player of the team has disposal of the ball for a throw-in. 4-12-3: Team control continues until: a. The ball is in flight during a try or tap for goal. b. An opponent secures control. c. The ball becomes dead. https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.a...=0&w=239&h=180 |
The Coup De Grâce ...
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4.19.7 SITUATION D: A1 has the ball for a throw in. The throw-in pass deflects off of A2. As A2 and B2 are attempting to retrieve the loose throw-in pass, A2 illegally pushes B2 from behind and is called for a foul. Team B is in the bonus. RULING: Team A is in control during this throw in, therefore a team-control foul has been committed. B2 is awarded a throw in at a spot closest to where the foul occurred. (4-12-6) https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.f...=0&w=298&h=168 |
It's just such a poorly written rule. You are correct in pointing out that a throw-in ends when it touches anybody inbounds. And if team control exists for the purposes of the throw-in only, they have not clearly defined what the status of the ball is once it touches or deflects off an offensive player.
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Stupid NFHS ...
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I think that it's a good rule change, I get it, but the NFHS has had trouble putting in writing, with at least two Points of Emphasis, and several annual interpretations, that still don't do a great job of fully explaining the rule, and that's topped off with the cherry of not putting it permanently into the actual rule book for everyone, especially rookies, to see every year. These Points of Emphasis and annual interpretations are simply "patches" and aren't really permanent fixes. Stupid NFHS. Why not make the throwin team control legal for everything (say that the thrower has player control) with no exception for backcourt? Throwins from a frontcourt sideline or endline can only be legally passed into the frontcourt. Many ignorant fans already think that that's the actual rule. |
Billy, look at the definition of team control foul. What you seek is included there.
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In fact, we really have no need to the distinction between player control fouls and team control fouls and haven't had since they changed the penalty for team control fouls to be the same as player control fouls so many years ago. Instead, eliminate the definitions of both team control foul and player control foul and create a new foul type called "offensive" foul. You'd keep the definitions of team control and player control because they have other implications. Just change the foul definition. I propose something like this: Where the penalty for an "offensive" foul would be not shots and possession to the offended team as is currently done for both the player control and team control fouls. |
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Ball at disposal = control anyway, because once the ball is at a teams disposal, only that team may request and be granted timeout (for a live-ball timeout request to be honored, it must come from the team in control of the ball + player control, if the ball is inbounds). |
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NFHS 4-19-7: "...A team-control foul is a common foul committed by a member of the team that has team control or by a member of the throw-in team from the start of the throw-in until player control is obtained inbounds." |
Cherry On Top Of The Sundae ...
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No longer Back Court Violation
SITUATION 7: A1, in the team’s frontcourt, passes towards A2, also in the team’s frontcourt. B1 deflects the ball toward Team A’s backcourt. The ball bounces only in Team A’s frontcourt before crossing the division line. While the ball is still in the air over Team A’s backcourt, but never having touched in Team A’s backcourt, A2 gains possession of the ball while standing in Team A’s backcourt. RULING: Backcourt violation on Team A. Team A was still in team control and caused the ball to have backcourt status. Had A2 permitted the ball to bounce in the backcourt after having been deflected by B1, there would have been no backcourt violation. (4-4-1, 4-4-3, 9-9-1)
Please remember that this interp has been changed (2 years ago?). It is no longer a Back Court violation |
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Is Team A in control of the ball? What would have the ruling been before 2011?:rolleyes: |
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Team Control Continues ...
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4-12-2: A team is in control of the ball: a. When a player of the team is in control. b. While a live ball is being passed among teammates. c. During an interrupted dribble. d. When a player of the team has disposal of the ball for a throw-in. 4-12-3: Team control continues until: a. The ball is in flight during a try or tap for goal. b. An opponent secures control. c. The ball becomes dead. |
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It sounds like we are jumbling up multiple things into this conversation. Isn't this about how to apply team control for foul purposes? The rule on that is very clear. How we adjudicate some violations with team control can be another issue all together. Maybe I just have not read everything in detail, but it sounds like there are things being discussed that have nothing to do with fouls.
Peace |
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Inadvertent Whistle ...
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2011-12 Basketball Rules Changes Several definitions were changed to reflect that team control will now exist during a throw-in when the thrower-in has the ball at his/her disposal. The change primarily affects how foul penalties will be administered. Definitions within Rules 4-12-1, 4-12-2 and 4-12-6 were changed to reflect that team control will now exist during a throw-in once the thrower-in has the ball at his or her disposal. The new rule will no longer grant free throws to the defending team in the bonus if the throw-in team commits a foul. Team Control During A Throw-In (4-12-1, 2, 6): Several definitions were changed to reflect that team control will now exist during a throw-in when the thrower-in has the ball at his/her disposal. The change primarily affects how foul penalties will be administered. By changing the definition of player and team control to include a throw-in, greater consistency in penalty administration for a common foul is achieved. Under the previous rule, because there was no team control during a throw-in, the penalty for a common foul committed by the throw-in team after the throw-in had begun resulted in free throws if the offended team was in the bonus, which was inconsistent with the penalty for a team-control foul in non-throw-in situations. The rules change will result in greater consistency in penalty enforcement and expedite the contest by eliminating the delay inherent with administering free throws. 2014-15 Points Of Emphasis Team Control Status During Throw-in. Team Control Status Inbounds - Since a 2011-12 rules change, team control exists during a throw-in when the thrower-in has the ball at her/his disposal. The change was made only to eliminate the penalty of administering free throw(s) when a teammate of the thrower-in commits a common foul during the throw-in. The change made the penalty consistent with the penalty for other team control fouls. The penalty now is the awarding of a throw-in to the opposing team at the spot out-of-bounds nearest to where the foul occurred. Basketball Points of Emphasis - 2017-18 Team control, throw-in. The relevance of team control during a throw-in only applies when a member of the throw- in team fouls. Such fouls shall be ruled team control fouls. Team control during a throw-in is NOT intended to be the same as player control/team control inbounds. Team control inbounds is established when a player from either team who has inbound status gains control of the ball. During the throw-in, 10-seconds, 3-seconds, frontcourt status, backcourt status, closely guarded, etc., are NOT factors as there has yet to be player control/team control obtained inbounds. But we're still stuck with these definitions. 4-12-2: A team is in control of the ball: a. When a player of the team is in control. b. While a live ball is being passed among teammates. c. During an interrupted dribble. d. When a player of the team has disposal of the ball for a throw-in. 4-12-3: Team control continues until: a. The ball is in flight during a try or tap for goal. b. An opponent secures control. c. The ball becomes dead. 4-12-4: While the ball remains live a loose ball always remains in control of the team whose player last had control, unless it is a try or tap for goal. 4-42-5: The throw-in ends when: a. The passed ball touches or is touched by another player inbounds. b. The passed ball touches or is touched by another player out-of-bounds, except as in 7-5-7. c. The throw-in team commits a throw-in violation. 4-19-7: A team-control foul is a common foul committed by a member of the team that has team control or by a member of the throw-in team from the start of the throw-in until player control is obtained inbounds. https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.o...=0&w=231&h=174 |
I seem to recall discussing this at length in another thread. The Team Control stuff during a TI only applied to fouls and had nothing to do with IW. In the IW case, once, the throw-in is touched (meaning it ended), one would go to the AP arrow for an IW. My memory could be off though.
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Stupid NFHS ...
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It just doesn't seem right that between the non-possession (muff) touch inbounds and the eventual player/team control, the official can't use team control for an inadvertent whistle, but can use team control for a team control foul. The NFHS has patched together a new rule (throwin team control), with exceptions (backcourt, etc.), along with a few Points of Emphasis (that don't make it into the rulebook), with a heavy dose of annual interpretations (that don't make it into the casebook). I like the throwin team control rule change, but it seems that the NFHS could have done a better job of writing it in the rulebook. https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.z...=0&w=213&h=163 |
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Who gets the ball and where is the throw-in? IAABO President 2016-17 David Smith, CO. and other IAABO Co-Coordinators of Interpreters, the consensus was to give the ball to Team A. Team A had Team control.:eek: He gave contradicting locations for the Throw-in. One was at the location of the ball at the time of the IW. The other was the location when the ball was last touched. |
Patchwork ...
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IAABO interpretations are not the same as NFHS interpretations, and carry no weight outside of IAABO (if that). I'm a proud IAABO member myself, and this apparent contradiction of NFHS rules by very competent IAABO co-coordinators of interpreters just demonstrates the "patchwork" quality of this ugly combination of this NFHS rule (including exceptions), NFHS Points of Emphasis, and NFHS annual interpretations. Quote:
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Nugget Of Wisdom ...
I came across this nugget of wisdom while researching Zoochy's original thread:
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