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Old Mon Jun 29, 2020, 03:52pm
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Guarding/Screening Equals Block/Charge Play.

I know that the Pandemic has put the kabash on our discussions and I am posting a video of a play from the 2017-18 season that I hope will start a discussion that will benefit the newer and younger officials in our Forum.

I want to thank Abe Wyse of the 5th District Basketball Officials Association for posting it on his YouTube Channel (as well as in the Facebook group: Basketball Officials Forum (https://www.facebook.com/groups/1431...=group_comment).

The game was a Toledo City League Boys' Varsity Semi-Finals in February 2018; Toledo Rogers H.S. in the White and Toledo Bowsher H.S. in the Blue; I was not at the game and do not know who was officiating the game but the TCAL Assigner is a very good veteran H.S. basketball official himself.

I have made my Ruling known in the Facebook group and I would bet dollars to donuts that the veterans in our group know what my Ruling was. I do want to keep the discussion to the Play itself and leave Officiating Mechanics of the Play for another discussion.

Here it is and lets have some fun: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfGK...QboqP-IH6Sj5so

MTD, Sr.
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Old Mon Jun 29, 2020, 04:05pm
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I got a charge. Two feet facing the opponent and then retreats legally to maintain LGP.

For the record, we cannot see the FB page link. We can see the YouTube link which I posted for your convenience.



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Old Mon Jun 29, 2020, 05:24pm
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As always, I ask myself "What did the defender do wrong?"

Wasn't there a revision to the rules recently stating that the defender's torso could be facing any part of the offensive player's body in order to establish LGP? i.e. The defender's torso doesn't have to face the ball handler's torso in order to be legal, like some officials think. This seems to be a classic example of that rule, if my memory serves me correctly.

Player control foul.
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Old Mon Jun 29, 2020, 07:00pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
As always, I ask myself "What did the defender do wrong?"

Wasn't there a revision to the rules recently stating that the defender's torso could be facing any part of the offensive player's body in order to establish LGP? i.e. The defender's torso doesn't have to face the ball handler's torso in order to be legal, like some officials think. This seems to be a classic example of that rule, if my memory serves me correctly.

Player control foul.
The NCAA Men's made that very clear that facing any direction of the torso was good enough. Not sure about the other levels, but nothing in the rule says that facing is required in a certain way or has to be "square."

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Old Mon Jun 29, 2020, 10:00pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
As always, I ask myself "What did the defender do wrong?"

Wasn't there a revision to the rules recently stating that the defender's torso could be facing any part of the offensive player's body in order to establish LGP? i.e. The defender's torso doesn't have to face the ball handler's torso in order to be legal, like some officials think. This seems to be a classic example of that rule, if my memory serves me correctly.

Player control foul.
I think I know what you're saying, but you'd always be facing the opponents torso if you're facing them at all. I think you mean to say you can face any side of the offensive player's torso, not just the front of the opponent's torso. It may have been clarified recently, but the direction the offensive player faces has never been a factor.
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Old Mon Jun 29, 2020, 10:05pm
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This was a H.S. game played under NFHS Rules. That said, despite the Secondary Defender (NFHS and NCAA Men's/Women's), RAs (NCAA Men's/Women's), and Lower Defensive Box (NCAA Women's) the Guarding and Screening Rules have not changed for over 60 years except that "Establish" was changed to "Obtain" in the NFHS Rules in the late 1990s (and that is a story for another time) and the requirement that the Defender in the Guarding Rule and the Screener in the Screening Rule must be entirely Inbounds (NFHS and NCAA Men's/Women's).

I will give a hint as to how to adjudicate this play: Think the Screening Rule and not the Guarding Rule.

MTD, Sr.
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 30, 2020, 01:12am
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As other responders have already written, the call in the video is correct. This is a player control foul. Iíll note that the proper official makes the decision given that this is a transition play and the location of the defender involved. The only possible criticism would be that the proper NFHS PC signal was not used, but some areas elect not to use NFHS signals or mechanics or to modify them. Most importantly, the correct decision on the action was made according to the HS rules and it was communicated in a reasonably clear manner.

I have no idea what MTD is talking about with regard to screening principles. This is not a screening play. It is most clearly a guarding situation and the requirements of guarding and LGP are determinative. If one thinks about screens, one could get misdirected by the stationary requirement for a screener (except for one situation) and make the wrong ruling on a defender who is moving after obtaining LGP. Also, no time or distance is required in this situation because the opponent has the ball.
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Old Tue Jun 30, 2020, 07:45am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
The NCAA Men's made that very clear that facing any direction of the torso was good enough. Not sure about the other levels, but nothing in the rule says that facing is required in a certain way or has to be "square."

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
I think I know what you're saying, but you'd always be facing the opponents torso if you're facing them at all. I think you mean to say you can face any side of the offensive player's torso, not just the front of the opponent's torso. It may have been clarified recently, but the direction the offensive player faces has never been a factor.
Ah, found it. It was NCAA-M that made the clarification/revision.

Rule 4-17-4-b: "The guardís torso shall face the opponent from any direction."

And yes Camron, you said it better than me.
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Old Tue Jun 30, 2020, 07:46am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
I will give a hint as to how to adjudicate this play: Think the Screening Rule and not the Guarding Rule.
I have no idea what you are getting at. This is not a screening play.
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Old Tue Jun 30, 2020, 11:01am
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I have a player control foul but mostly not for many of the reasons already discussed. Yes, focus is on the defender and they look to be in good position. However, what really sells it for me is the offensive player. The player gathers, looks at the defender, lowers their head/shoulder, and jumps directly into the defender. It is not even an offensive move but rather a jump into the defender move. I take issue with the L making this call as the play is clearly outside their primary area. C should have ran faster, been closer, and made the call. This is a good play/area to pre-game and perhaps they did. Just my opinion.
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Old Tue Jun 30, 2020, 11:24am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
I have a player control foul but mostly not for many of the reasons already discussed. Yes, focus is on the defender and they look to be in good position. However, what really sells it for me is the offensive player. The player gathers, looks at the defender, lowers their head/shoulder, and jumps directly into the defender. It is not even an offensive move but rather a jump into the defender move. I take issue with the L making this call as the play is clearly outside their primary area. C should have ran faster, been closer, and made the call. This is a good play/area to pre-game and perhaps they did. Just my opinion.
You need to learn to officiate according to the rules and not just by what you like or don’t like. Here’s why what you write above is a problem: the play comes down to legal guarding position. If the defender has obtained it, then this is a charging foul (which morphs into a player control foul because the opponent has the ball), if not then BY RULE this is a blocking foul on the defender despite the fact that the offensive player causes the contact by moving into his opponent as he heads towards the basket.
To give a specific example: If the defender in the video had been running back in an attempt to cut off the dribbler and merely been able to jump in front of his opponent shortly before this contact and only have one foot down on the floor, then the NFHS guarding rule coupled with the rule for a blocking foul, inform us that the correct decision is a blocking foul despite the action with which you take issue, namely the offensive player jumping into the defender. What you like or don’t isn’t relevant.

Furthermore, your opinion of which official should be making this call is mistaken. Even if the C had run faster and put himself further down the floor and closer to the play, he still would have a poor view of the crash. The offensive player is between the C and the defender blocking his line of sight. The L has full view of the defender and can track him to determine whether or not he obtains LGP prior to the contact. That is the most salient factor to ajudge in this action. The principle to officiate the defense is paramount and demonstrates which official should be making the call, namely the one who has the best view of the defender.
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Old Tue Jun 30, 2020, 11:51am
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See the whole play from start to finish: Screening vs. Guarding.

I) Let us first start by reviewing the Fundamentals of Guarding and Screening.

A) We shall assume than in any Situation, that unless noted, the Ball is Live.

B) We shall use standard notation of Team A and Team B and that when there is Team Control of the Ball it is Team A in Control of the Ball.

C) The Guarding Rule is in Effect only when there is Team Control of the Ball and applies to the Players on the Team which does not have Control of the Ball.

D) The Screening Rule is in Effect at all times whether or not there is
Team Control of the Ball and applies to all Players both Defensive (YES, Defensive Players can set Screens.) and Offensive Players when one Team does have Control of the Ball.


II) During any game an Official makes hundreds of YES (that is legal)-NO (that is not legal) Decisions. And many times the Official must process multiple Rules simultaneously to make his Decision.

A) It has been my experience that Officials (myself included as a young inexperienced Official), when officiating any situations between a Defensive Player and an Offensive Player who is in Control of the Ball, the Official's default setting is to apply the Guarding Rule. But in many cases the Screening Rule is the correct applicable Rule because the Official does not start to officiate the Play until possible contact is imminent; in otherwords the Official does not officiate the Play from Start to End.


III) Where did the Play actually start? To answer that question in our Play we need to to quote Warner Wolf: "Lets go to the videotape!" (Who is Warner Wolf: I am a bald old geezer for another time, !)

A) At approximately 0:01.9: W1, caught a Pass from W2 and gained Control of the Ball in Team W's Front Court between just inside the Division Line and the Top of the Key Extended along the Volleyball Court's Side Line and started Dribbling along a Line described by the VB Court's SL.

B) At approximately 0:02.1: B1 started running parallel to W1 along a line described as halfway between the FT Lane extended on the same side of the Court as W1 and the VB Court's SL.

C) At approximately 0:02.9: W1 changes directions and moves toward B1 who is still moving along his same path.

D) At approximately 0:03.1: W1 makes contact with B1 who has not changed his path.

E) Therefore the anwer to the question is found in III-B.


IV) Legal Position on the Court: It could be said that B1 did not set a legal Screen per NFHS R4-S40-A2c and A6 which both describe the Screener and the Opponent moving in the same Path and Direction. BUT:

A) Within NFHS R4-S23-A1 we find the sentence that is applicable to both Guarding and Screening Situations: "Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent."

B) B1 is running down the Court in a path that is parallel to the path in which W1 is Dribbling.

C) As long as both B1 and W1 continue to run on their parallel paths they are both entitled to any spot that they are instantaneously occupying on the Court.

D) Both B1 and W1 can deviate from their initial paths.

1) BUT, when either Player deviates from his initial path then the appropriate Guarding or Screening Rule apply and the Player that violates the appropriate Guarding or Screening Rule has committed a Blocking or Charging Foul.

E) From the videotape (III-C and III-D) we see that B1 never deviated from his path while W1 changed direction and moved into B1 causing Contact. B1 is has committed a Charging Foul.

1) B1 in the Play which we are discussing effected a legal moving Screen throughout the Play from the Start (III-B) of the Play until the End (III-D) of the Play.

2) At anytime between III-B and III-C if either Player deviated (which W1 did at III-C) from his Path and subsequently made contact (which W1 did at III-D) with his Opponent he would be guilty of Illegal Contact.

3) It should be noted that until III-C B1 was effecting a legal moving Screen against W1 and W1 was effecting a legal moving Screen against B1.


Because this Play had a BANG-BANG ending it is a great example of seeing the entire Play and how an Official must process multiple Rules simultaneously throughout the Play.

MTD, Sr.
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  #13 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 30, 2020, 11:53am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
As other responders have already written, the call in the video is correct. This is a player control foul. Iíll note that the proper official makes the decision given that this is a transition play and the location of the defender involved. The only possible criticism would be that the proper NFHS PC signal was not used, but some areas elect not to use NFHS signals or mechanics or to modify them. Most importantly, the correct decision on the action was made according to the HS rules and it was communicated in a reasonably clear manner.

I have no idea what MTD is talking about with regard to screening principles. This is not a screening play. It is most clearly a guarding situation and the requirements of guarding and LGP are determinative. If one thinks about screens, one could get misdirected by the stationary requirement for a screener (except for one situation) and make the wrong ruling on a defender who is moving after obtaining LGP. Also, no time or distance is required in this situation because the opponent has the ball.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
I have a player control foul but mostly not for many of the reasons already discussed. Yes, focus is on the defender and they look to be in good position. However, what really sells it for me is the offensive player. The player gathers, looks at the defender, lowers their head/shoulder, and jumps directly into the defender. It is not even an offensive move but rather a jump into the defender move. I take issue with the L making this call as the play is clearly outside their primary area. C should have ran faster, been closer, and made the call. This is a good play/area to pre-game and perhaps they did. Just my opinion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
You need to learn to officiate according to the rules and not just by what you like or donít like. Hereís why what you write above is a problem: the play comes down to legal guarding position. If the defender has obtained it, then this is a charging foul (which morphs into a player control foul because the opponent has the ball), if not then BY RULE this is a blocking foul on the defender despite the fact that the offensive player causes the contact by moving into his opponent as he heads towards the basket.
To give a specific example: If the defender in the video had been running back in an attempt to cut off the dribbler and merely been able to jump in front of his opponent shortly before this contact and only have one foot down on the floor, then the NFHS guarding rule coupled with the rule for a blocking foul, inform us that the correct decision is a blocking foul despite the action with which you take issue, namely the offensive player jumping into the defender. What you like or donít isnít relevant.

Furthermore, your opinion of which official should be making this call is mistaken. Even if the C had run faster and put himself further down the floor and closer to the play, he still would have a poor view of the crash. The offensive player is between the C and the defender blocking his line of sight. The L has full view of the defender and can track him to determine whether or not he obtains LGP prior to the contact. That is the most salient factor to ajudge in this action. The principle to officiate the defense is paramount and demonstrates which official should be making the call, namely the one who has the best view of the defender.

Please read my comments of today at 12:51pmEDT.

MTD, Sr.
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 30, 2020, 03:00pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
I) Let us first start by reviewing the Fundamentals of Guarding and Screening.

A) We shall assume than in any Situation, that unless noted, the Ball is Live.

B) We shall use standard notation of Team A and Team B and that when there is Team Control of the Ball it is Team A in Control of the Ball.

C) The Guarding Rule is in Effect only when there is Team Control of the Ball and applies to the Players on the Team which does not have Control of the Ball.

D) The Screening Rule is in Effect at all times whether or not there is
Team Control of the Ball and applies to all Players both Defensive (YES, Defensive Players can set Screens.) and Offensive Players when one Team does have Control of the Ball.


II) During any game an Official makes hundreds of YES (that is legal)-NO (that is not legal) Decisions. And many times the Official must process multiple Rules simultaneously to make his Decision.

A) It has been my experience that Officials (myself included as a young inexperienced Official), when officiating any situations between a Defensive Player and an Offensive Player who is in Control of the Ball, the Official's default setting is to apply the Guarding Rule. But in many cases the Screening Rule is the correct applicable Rule because the Official does not start to officiate the Play until possible contact is imminent; in otherwords the Official does not officiate the Play from Start to End.


III) Where did the Play actually start? To answer that question in our Play we need to to quote Warner Wolf: "Lets go to the videotape!" (Who is Warner Wolf: I am a bald old geezer for another time, !)

A) At approximately 0:01.9: W1, caught a Pass from W2 and gained Control of the Ball in Team W's Front Court between just inside the Division Line and the Top of the Key Extended along the Volleyball Court's Side Line and started Dribbling along a Line described by the VB Court's SL.

B) At approximately 0:02.1: B1 started running parallel to W1 along a line described as halfway between the FT Lane extended on the same side of the Court as W1 and the VB Court's SL.

C) At approximately 0:02.9: W1 changes directions and moves toward B1 who is still moving along his same path.

D) At approximately 0:03.1: W1 makes contact with B1 who has not changed his path.

E) Therefore the anwer to the question is found in III-B.


IV) Legal Position on the Court: It could be said that B1 did not set a legal Screen per NFHS R4-S40-A2c and A6 which both describe the Screener and the Opponent moving in the same Path and Direction. BUT:

A) Within NFHS R4-S23-A1 we find the sentence that is applicable to both Guarding and Screening Situations: "Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent."

B) B1 is running down the Court in a path that is parallel to the path in which W1 is Dribbling.

C) As long as both B1 and W1 continue to run on their parallel paths they are both entitled to any spot that they are instantaneously occupying on the Court.

D) Both B1 and W1 can deviate from their initial paths.

1) BUT, when either Player deviates from his initial path then the appropriate Guarding or Screening Rule apply and the Player that violates the appropriate Guarding or Screening Rule has committed a Blocking or Charging Foul.

E) From the videotape (III-C and III-D) we see that B1 never deviated from his path while W1 changed direction and moved into B1 causing Contact. B1 is has committed a Charging Foul.

1) B1 in the Play which we are discussing effected a legal moving Screen throughout the Play from the Start (III-B) of the Play until the End (III-D) of the Play.

2) At anytime between III-B and III-C if either Player deviated (which W1 did at III-C) from his Path and subsequently made contact (which W1 did at III-D) with his Opponent he would be guilty of Illegal Contact.

3) It should be noted that until III-C B1 was effecting a legal moving Screen against W1 and W1 was effecting a legal moving Screen against B1.


Because this Play had a BANG-BANG ending it is a great example of seeing the entire Play and how an Official must process multiple Rules simultaneously throughout the Play.

MTD, Sr.
Unfortunately, everything in this post is based upon a false premise and that makes the entire logical reasoning provided also render a false conclusion. Sorry, MTD, but you are incorrect.

Here is why the above is not true.
The two players involved in this play W1 and B1 are moving in PARALLEL paths in the same direction. They are like two cars driving side-by-side in two lanes of a freeway.
This action does NOT constitute screening according the the NFHS rules as MTD claims.

NFHS rule 4-40-2c is "The screener must be stationary, except when both the screener and the opponent are moving in the same path and same direction."

So per NFHS rules there are ONLY TWO types of legal screens: one in which the screener is stationary and the other in which both the screener and his opponent are moving in the SAME path and SAME direction.

Moving in the same path and same direction means that the players would be like two cars traveling along the freeway in the SAME lane with one in front of the other. We can determine that this is true and what the NFHS intends with the use of the word "same" by examining NFHS rule 4-40-6 "...When screening an opponent who is moving in the same path and direction as the screener, the player behind is responsible if contact is made because the player in front slows up or stops and the player behind overruns his/her opponent."

This rule tells us that the players are moving with one in front of the other, not side-by-side in parallel paths. That is the necessary movement and configuration (same path and same direction) for a legal moving screen. MTD's parallel paths scenario does not qualify.

Therefore, B1 and W1 are NOT simultaneously setting moving screens on each other as they run down the court in parallel paths as MTD claims and this situation cannot be ajudicated according the the screening rules.

As W1 changes his path and heads toward the basket the two paths are no longer parallel and they begin to converge. The point at which they will converge is where the contact will occur. As an official we can observe this and deduce what is about to happen. What an official must use to determine the proper ruling of the impending contact is the guarding rules detailed in 4-23. As the two paths converge B1 will either obtain initial LGP before the time of contact (reaching the point of convergence) or not. The official must ajudge this and then use that information to rule on the contact. That is the determining factor for two players moving in different paths (but possibly the same direction or very nearly the same direction).
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Old Tue Jun 30, 2020, 03:55pm
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NevadaRef:

I) B1 and W1 are both moving in parallel paths:

A) B1 continues to move along his path and Obtains a LGP just prior to W1 making contact with him after W1 deviates from his path,

B) B1 continues to move along his path and attempts to Obtain a LGP just prior to W1 making contact with him after W1 deviates from his path, or

C) B1 continues to move along his path and W1 makes contact with him after W1 deviates from his path.


II) What are the Rulings in Part I?

A) Part I-A: We both agree that this is a Charging Foul by W1 but for different reasons. That difference of reason is the subject of our (you and me) discussion and may have ramifications for your Rulings in II-B and II-C.

B) Is this Blocking by B1 or Charging by W1? Me: Charging. You: ??

C) Is this Blocking by B1 or Charging by W1? Me: Charging. You: ??


III) Guarding or Screening, First Part:

A) 2019-20 NFHS Basketball Rule 4, Section23: Definition of Guarding:

Article 1: Guarding is the act of legally placing the body in the path of an offensive opponent. There is no minimum distance required between the guard and opponent, but the maximum is 6 feet when closely guarded. Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent. A player who extends an arm, shoulder, hip or leg into the path of an opponent is not considered to have a legal position
if contact occurs.

Article 2: To obtain an initial legal guarding position:
a. The guard must have both feet touching the playing court.
b. The front of the guardís torso must be facing the opponent.

Article 3: After the initial legal guarding position is obtained:
a. The guard may have one or both feet on the playing court or be airborne, provided he/she has inbound status.
b. The guard is not required to continue facing the opponent.
c. The guard may move laterally or obliquely to maintain position, provided it is not toward the opponent when contact occurs.
d. The guard may raise hands or jump within his/her own vertical plane.
e. The guard may turn or duck to absorb the shock of imminent contact.

Article 4: Guarding an opponent with the ball or a stationary opponent without the ball:
a. No time or distance is required to obtain an initial legal position.
b. If the opponent with the ball is airborne, the guard must have obtained legal position before the opponent left the floor.

Article 5: Guarding a moving opponent without the ball:
a. Time and distance are factors required to obtain an initial legal position.
b. The guard must give the opponent the time and/or distance to avoid contact.
c. The distance need not be more than two strides.
d. If the opponent is airborne, the guard must have obtained legal position before the opponent left the floor.

B) 2019-20 NFHS Basketball Rule 4, Section40: Definition of Screening:

Article 1: A screen is legal action by a player who, while touching the playing court, without causing contact, delays or prevents an opponent from reaching a desired position.

Article 2: To establish a legal screening position:
a. The screener may face any direction.
b. Time and distance are relevant.
c. The screener must be stationary, except when both the screener and opponent are moving in the same path and the same direction.
d. The screener must stay within his/her vertical plane with a stance approximately shoulder width apart.

Article 3: When screening a stationary opponent from the front or side (within the visual field), the screener may be anywhere short of contact.

Article 4: When screening a stationary opponent from behind (outside the visual field), the screener must allow the opponent one normal step backward without contact.

Article 5: When screening a moving opponent, the screener must allow the opponent time and distance to avoid contact by stopping or changing direction. The speed of the player to be screened will determine where the screener may take his/her stationary position. The position will vary and may be one to two normal steps or strides from the opponent.

Article 6: When screening an opponent who is moving in the same path and direction as the screener, the player behind is responsible if contact is made because the player in front slows up or stops and the player behind overruns his/her opponent.

Article 7: A player who is screened within his/her visual field is expected to avoid contact by going around the screener. In cases of screens outside the visual field, the opponent may make inadvertent contact with the screener and if the opponent is running rapidly, the contact may be severe. Such a case is to be ruled as incidental contact provided the opponent stops or attempts to stop on contact
and moves around the screen, and provided the screener is not displaced if he/she has the ball.

Article 8: A player may not use the arms, hands, hips or shoulders to force his/her way through a screen or to hold the screener and then push the screener aside in order to maintain a guarding position on an opponent.


IV) Guarding or Screening, Second Part:

A) R4-S40-A1: "A screen is legal action by a player who, while touching the playing court, without causing contact, delays or prevents an opponent from reaching a desired position."

1) You quote R4-S40-A2c to disprove my position that neither B1 nor W1 are effecting a legal Moving Screen against each other prior to W1 deviating from his initial Path. Therefore,

2) Are you saying that B1 has committed a Blocking Foul in:

a) Part II-B? And

b) Part II-C?

I await your comments before going further in this discussion.

MTD, Sr.
__________________
Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Ohio Assn. of Basketball Officials
International Assn. of Approved Bkb. Officials
Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Ump. Assn.
Ohio High School Athletic Association
Toledo, Ohio
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