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Old Mon Feb 03, 2020, 03:47pm
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Help with Ruling on Fight/Forfeit

I have a real situation I need to rule on and want some input.

If there is a fight in which all players from both teams are DQ'd such that there is no one left to play on either team, what is the ruling? Double forfeit? Score at the of the time of the fight determine the winner?

What if one or both teams had a few players left (2 or more) but the officials ended the game at that point anyway?
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Last edited by Camron Rust; Mon Feb 03, 2020 at 03:50pm.
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Old Mon Feb 03, 2020, 04:08pm
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Well, who won the fight?
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Old Mon Feb 03, 2020, 04:20pm
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I just read recently about a game in which each team was left with 3 eligible players and by the end of the game it was 2 on 1.

I would say, if you feel the conditions are safe enough to continue play, to keep the game going if there are players from both teams available.

If it's a situation where everyone is ejected at the point of the fight, then officially suspend the game, gather all the pertinent statistical information, and send it up the chain.

If you are the final arbiter, and the game had to be terminated due to zero available players, either double forfeit (read about one of those recently also) or go by the results at the time of termination.
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Old Mon Feb 03, 2020, 04:57pm
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If you have 2 to 3 players games continues...you can finish with “ONE” player..fight doesn’t end contest with players still available to play so game goes on ..
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Old Mon Feb 03, 2020, 05:03pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
I just read recently about a game in which each team was left with 3 eligible players and by the end of the game it was 2 on 1.

I would say, if you feel the conditions are safe enough to continue play, to keep the game going if there are players from both teams available.

If it's a situation where everyone is ejected at the point of the fight, then officially suspend the game, gather all the pertinent statistical information, and send it up the chain.

If you are the final arbiter, and the game had to be terminated due to zero available players, either double forfeit (read about one of those recently also) or go by the results at the time of termination.
I'm consulting on this after the fact. I now have the video. It seems there may have been a few players (on the court) from one team that never participated in the fight. They would have had enough personnel left to continue the game.
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Old Tue Feb 04, 2020, 12:58pm
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If the crew ejected everybody during the game, I think you have to rule it a double forfeit as neither team was able to complete the game. IMO, having video and making a ruling after the fact that alters what was called during the game sets a precedent that video can be used to overturn an ejection after the game is completed. If you use video to rule that 3 players from one team shouldn't have been ejected and thus award a win based on that, what happens if there is a fight in a game tonight and an official ejects 3 players that came off the bench but subsequent video shows only 2 came off the bench? Does the coach of the team that lost 3 players have grounds to suggest the outcome of the game should be altered (or at least replayed from that point) based on the previous ruling?

I know I'm making a slippery slope argument and know there is a growing sentiment to get it right if video shows something of relevance, but I also feel like opening the door to changing an official's call after the game is a dangerous door to open. If you are using the video to change the effects of the ejections as it relates to additional punishments (i.e. being ineligible for subsequent games), I think there is some wiggle room. But to make a ruling that changes the official's call in a game that was effectively completed when all players were DQ'd isn't a road I'd go down.
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Old Tue Feb 04, 2020, 01:46pm
LRZ LRZ is offline
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Imo

If there were insufficient players to continue the game, I would think a double forfeit is appropriate. To keep the score at the time of the fight would reward one team at the expense of the other, when there's no way to know whether the losing team might have, could have, come back. A double forfeit as the penalty for fighting would be applied equally.

If you determine that there were players not ejected and sufficient to continue, but the officials deemed it unsafe to continue the game with diminished benches (the R's report should make this apparent or clear), it would seem appropriate, in my judgment, to pick up the game from that point, with the remaining players.

If you are reviewing the tape to also determine the propriety of the ejections, I could live with that. A slew of players and coaches, all rushing the floor, in the hectic heat of the moment? I can see how referees could easily make errors in who they eject. This is unlike reversing a block/charge or goaltending, for example.
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Old Tue Feb 04, 2020, 02:07pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoomerSooner View Post
If the crew ejected everybody during the game, I think you have to rule it a double forfeit as neither team was able to complete the game. IMO, having video and making a ruling after the fact that alters what was called during the game sets a precedent that video can be used to overturn an ejection after the game is completed. If you use video to rule that 3 players from one team shouldn't have been ejected and thus award a win based on that, what happens if there is a fight in a game tonight and an official ejects 3 players that came off the bench but subsequent video shows only 2 came off the bench? Does the coach of the team that lost 3 players have grounds to suggest the outcome of the game should be altered (or at least replayed from that point) based on the previous ruling?

I know I'm making a slippery slope argument and know there is a growing sentiment to get it right if video shows something of relevance, but I also feel like opening the door to changing an official's call after the game is a dangerous door to open. If you are using the video to change the effects of the ejections as it relates to additional punishments (i.e. being ineligible for subsequent games), I think there is some wiggle room. But to make a ruling that changes the official's call in a game that was effectively completed when all players were DQ'd isn't a road I'd go down.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LRZ View Post
If there were insufficient players to continue the game, I would think a double forfeit is appropriate. To keep the score at the time of the fight would reward one team at the expense of the other, when there's no way to know whether the losing team might have, could have, come back. A double forfeit as the penalty for fighting would be applied equally.

If you determine that there were players not ejected and sufficient to continue, but the officials deemed it unsafe to continue the game with diminished benches (the R's report should make this apparent or clear), it would seem appropriate, in my judgment, to pick up the game from that point, with the remaining players.

If you are reviewing the tape to also determine the propriety of the ejections, I could live with that. A slew of players and coaches, all rushing the floor, in the hectic heat of the moment? I can see how referees could easily make errors in who they eject. This is unlike reversing a block/charge or goaltending, for example.
This is why the officials should not rule a forfeit. They should suspend the game and let the powers that be determine the course of action from there.
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Old Tue Feb 04, 2020, 03:36pm
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Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
This is why the officials should not rule a forfeit. They should suspend the game and let the powers that be determine the course of action from there.
I consulted the only rulebook I have handy from a couple of years ago, so correct me if anything has been updated, but I have a couple of additional notes:

Suspending the Game:
Rule 5.4.3 allows for the game to be "interrupted because of events beyond the control of the responsible administrative authorities". This is the only reference to interrupting/suspending the game that I could find, but I don't believe this would be supported by rule as disqualifying all of the involved players is within the control of the officials. In this case, the officials DQ'd all of the players which results in a forfeit under Rule 3.1.1.

Rule 2.2.4: The note to this allows the state association to intercede if a game is ended prior to regulation. This could give authority to the state association to make a ruling in this case, unless you consider the game ending due to the DQ's as ending by regulation (that regulation being Rule 3.1.1). If you make the argument that the game didn't end by regulation, then a ruling from the state would be supported, except that...

Rule 2.6 provides no official has the authority to set aside or question the decisions made by the other officials. I know I'm broadly applying the term official in this case to include someone from the state association, but I return to my previous point of setting precedent of overturning officials calls. In this case, the call to DQ all of the players was within the officials' jurisdiction and authority. It sounds like the video shows that was the wrong call, but since when do we overturn calls based on video reviewed well after the fact? IMO, the only way to rule anything other than a double forfeit is to overturn the officials' call on the court.
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Old Tue Feb 04, 2020, 03:48pm
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Originally Posted by MechanicGuy View Post
Well, who won the fight?

Was the fight scored on the 10 point must system?

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Old Tue Feb 04, 2020, 03:50pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
I have a real situation I need to rule on and want some input.

If there is a fight in which all players from both teams are DQ'd such that there is no one left to play on either team, what is the ruling? Double forfeit? Score at the of the time of the fight determine the winner?

What if one or both teams had a few players left (2 or more) but the officials ended the game at that point anyway?

Camron:

I know that we are payed the big dollars to make these sort of decisions but it is my humble opinion that in both of the cases that you described I would suspend the game, file a game report with the StateHSAA and let people in pay grades far above mine settle the situation.

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Old Tue Feb 04, 2020, 10:34pm
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I had a similar situation last Friday, but it was more clear-cut, because all players from the home team were ejected for fighting, all visiting players were ejected for fighting, but 3 team members from the visiting team remained on the bench. All home team members left the bench during the fight, so they had no eligible team members remaining. Since the only team with eligible team members was the visiting team, I ruled that they won by forfeit. (Rule 3-1-1-NOTE, Rule 5-4-1).
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Old Tue Feb 04, 2020, 11:40pm
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Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
I had a similar situation last Friday, but it was more clear-cut, because all players from the home team were ejected for fighting, all visiting players were ejected for fighting, but 3 team members from the visiting team remained on the bench. All home team members left the bench during the fight, so they had no eligible team members remaining. Since the only team with eligible team members was the visiting team, I ruled that they won by forfeit. (Rule 3-1-1-NOTE, Rule 5-4-1).


Is it just me, or do weird occurrences have an uncanny propensity to find their way into the games you work?


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Old Wed Feb 05, 2020, 09:00am
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Yes, weird things do happen in my games. I had multiple intentional fouls in the games I worked yesterday, plus a technical foul for flopping. Maybe these weird situations are a test for me .
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Old Wed Feb 05, 2020, 11:19am
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I am reminded of the saying: Third-world plays happen to third-world officials.

I am NOT saying it's true all the time, or applies to anyone in this thread -- but I've found it worth considering when these plays happen.
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