Kansas/Kansas State Brouhaha

[IUgrad92]

Somewhat surprised there is no thread on this yet.

Was there anything the Trail official or the crew as a whole could have done to prevent this situation?

*** Somewhat side not: I've had many blow out games this season where the team ahead ends up standing for 10-15 seconds running out the clock. During summer ball, once I see the losing team has 'given up', I end the game (always usually under 20 seconds). But we can't do this for high school games. In these 'dribble out the clock' scenarios, absolutely nothing positive can happen, but there are a bunch of DUMB things that can happen. Would love for NFHS to look at this.... Thoughts?

[BillyMac]

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

Somewhat surprised there is no thread on this yet.



Was there anything the Trail official or the crew as a whole could have done to prevent this situation?



...

The Trail would have been about 80 or 90 feet away from this play, so a definite no for him.

I don't know how a crew prevents players from making dumb decisions and doing stupid stuff.

And there was probably no thread on this because it has nothing to do with the officiating. It needs to be in a coach's thread.



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[JRutledge]

Seriously, what could the crew have done for the team's stupidity?

Usually, players just end the game knowing the game is over, but not here. This actually happened to Kansas earlier in the year where a player stole the ball in a blowout and dunked after a steal. I am not sure what the crew could have done if the entire benches empty. Yes you can turn around and maybe try to hold them up, but that takes some understanding that is not a good idea on the part of the teams.

Peace

[IUgrad92]

My bad..... initially Trail, then to new Lead. Thought that was an assumption I could make, but normally learn that there's always one.....

Here's the point I was trying to get at....

First, bad play/decision by the Kansas St. defender on stealing the ball. Definitely not warranted or necessary. What if Trail nails him with a hand check foul? Likely, nothing occurs afterwards, you shoot Bonus and game over.

Second, probably not the best decision for Kansas player to aggressively go after K State player on the block shot. Why not just walk towards your bench, let him have the silly 2 points, and get ready to shake hands? However, what if new Lead has a STRONG whistle for body contact on the Kansas defender and immediately closes down and has a presence with the involved players? Does anything likely occur at that point?

In both plays, was there an actual foul committed? Likely not. But in either/both cases I fully believe a whistle could have been a huge prevention tool. And if like most games, a foul in either of these two plays likely would not have been the worst call made during this specific game.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

Would love for NFHS to look at this.... Thoughts?

Coaches can agree to shorten a quarter. Maybe it could be a POE next year to let them agree in situations like this.

[SC Official]

Maybe if they had covered this more thoroughly in pregame, it wouldn't have happened.


Guys don't get to the level by being MSU officials.

Calling a personal foul on the steal or the layup would have been a MSU call. And in the waning moments of a 22-point game, the worst thing you can do is prolong it by calling unnecessary crap that's not there for everyone to see.

It's easy to referee in hindsight, but that's not how life works. These are three of the top officials in the country; there's nothing they could do once De Sousa decided to taunt the KSU player while on the ground. Not their fault that the clock expired and the benches emptied.

I don't buy the "if you call a foul on the body contact, he wouldn't have taunted him." I've called many technicals on defenders taunting after getting called for a foul.

[Raymond]

Maybe players shouldn't do stupid sh!t, then we wouldn't have to look for reasons to blame the officials for not having ESP.

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[bucky]

I have to respectfully disagree with the idea that the official(s) could not do something different. This play mostly reminds me of my soccer officiating days but I do also apply some things currently in basketball to prevent this type of stuff.

Verbal guidance may have prevented all of this. Typically, in games like this with the outcome decided, I can read the body language of the players, especially the ones that tend to make poor decisions. As the player was dribbling out the clock, the official easily could have been saying "games over, be smart", "no foul", "easy", "just hold it", etc. After the steal, I would have been nearly yelling "let him go" or "no, no, no". Anything to verbally assist the knuckleheads when the game is out of reach.

Maybe the ref was doing that but that certainly did not appear to be the case. In fact, Higgins go in the way. He was relaxed (as we all probably would have been) but he could have been in better position by eyeballing the defender.

[ilyazhito]

Originally Posted by SC Official

Maybe if they had covered this more thoroughly in pregame, it wouldn't have happened.


Guys don't get to the level by being MSU officials.

Calling a personal foul on the steal or the layup would have been a MSU call. And in the waning moments of a 22-point game, the worst thing you can do is prolong it by calling unnecessary crap that's not there for everyone to see.

It's easy to referee in hindsight, but that's not how life works. These are three of the top officials in the country; there's nothing they could do once De Sousa decided to taunt the KSU player while on the ground. Not their fault that the clock expired and the benches emptied.

I don't buy the "if you call a foul on the body contact, he wouldn't have taunted him." I've called many technicals on defenders taunting after getting called for a foul.

What does that mean "MSU official"?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

My bad..... initially Trail, then to new Lead. Thought that was an assumption I could make, but normally learn that there's always one.....

Here's the point I was trying to get at....

First, bad play/decision by the Kansas St. defender on stealing the ball. Definitely not warranted or necessary. What if Trail nails him with a hand check foul? Likely, nothing occurs afterwards, you shoot Bonus and game over.

Second, probably not the best decision for Kansas player to aggressively go after K State player on the block shot. Why not just walk towards your bench, let him have the silly 2 points, and get ready to shake hands? However, what if new Lead has a STRONG whistle for body contact on the Kansas defender and immediately closes down and has a presence with the involved players? Does anything likely occur at that point?

In both plays, was there an actual foul committed? Likely not. But in either/both cases I fully believe a whistle could have been a huge prevention tool. And if like most games, a foul in either of these two plays likely would not have been the worst call made during this specific game.

The covering official is John Higgins.
He gets stuck behind the play because it surprises him when the K St player steals the ball. Everyone was expecting the simple run out the clock action. Higgins almost gets run over by the K St player and then is not in a good position to handle the shot attempt. There is a clear foul on the shot by #5 of Kansas for whacking the shooter’s arm. The other defender blocks the ball cleanly.

Would calling this foul have made any difference to the ensuing aftermath? I seriously doubt it. The animosity which occurred there is going to take place either with or without a foul call.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by bucky

I have to respectfully disagree with the idea that the official(s) could not do something different. This play mostly reminds me of my soccer officiating days but I do also apply some things currently in basketball to prevent this type of stuff.

Verbal guidance may have prevented all of this. Typically, in games like this with the outcome decided, I can read the body language of the players, especially the ones that tend to make poor decisions. As the player was dribbling out the clock, the official easily could have been saying "games over, be smart", "no foul", "easy", "just hold it", etc. After the steal, I would have been nearly yelling "let him go" or "no, no, no". Anything to verbally assist the knuckleheads when the game is out of reach.

Maybe the ref was doing that but that certainly did not appear to be the case. In fact, Higgins go in the way. He was relaxed (as we all probably would have been) but he could have been in better position by eyeballing the defender.

That’s not officiating. That’s coaching and directing the players. That’s not our role in the game, especially at the D1 men’s level.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

What does that mean "MSU official"?

Making Sh*t Up

[ilyazhito]

Makes sense. Don't know what was made up during this game though.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

Makes sense. Don't know what was made up during this game though.

Nothing was made up during the end of the actual game. The person writing post #6 in this thread advocated calling a couple of fouls which aren’t really there as a way to stop the action which occurs in the final seconds of this contest and hopefully prevent the aftermath.

SC Official responded to his post by telling him that guys working at the D1 level don’t MSU.