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Old Wed Dec 11, 2019, 06:49am
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0 and 00 and more

You are not permitted to use 6, 7, 8, and 9. You are not permitted to have 0 and 00.

Why are those not illegal uniforms and penalized when we verify the books? I understand you may not participate with those numbers without penalty, but I have trouble verifying a book with those in it.

Rationale to continue is "Hey coach you cant have 0 and 00 uniforms, but hey if they both play you get a T" 0 starts and when 00 checks a direct T to coach for illegal uniform .. THEN THEY PLAY .. shouldn't the rule read you may not have 0 and 00 "without penalty"?

Thoughts?

Last edited by Valley Man; Wed Dec 11, 2019 at 06:51am.
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Old Wed Dec 11, 2019, 07:09am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valley Man View Post
You are not permitted to use 6, 7, 8, and 9. You are not permitted to have 0 and 00.

Why are those not illegal uniforms and penalized when we verify the books? I understand you may not participate with those numbers without penalty, but I have trouble verifying a book with those in it.

Rationale to continue is "Hey coach you cant have 0 and 00 uniforms, but hey if they both play you get a T" 0 starts and when 00 checks a direct T to coach for illegal uniform .. THEN THEY PLAY .. shouldn't the rule read you may not have 0 and 00 "without penalty"?

Thoughts?
Actually, that is the rule!

3-4-3d. Each team member must be numbered on the front and back of the team jersey with plain Arabic numerals. The following numbers are legal: 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 00, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55. A team member list must not have both numbers 0 and 00.
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Old Wed Dec 11, 2019, 07:13am
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Do not confuse using an illegal number on a jersey, such as 6, 7, or 8, with supplying an improper team roster to the scorer. They are two different rules.

The illegal number on a jersey situation does require the team member to participate in order to warrant a direct technical foul to the head coach. The improper team list scenario does not require any participation. The penalty is also different as it would be a team technical foul.
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Old Wed Dec 11, 2019, 07:52am
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YEP! Thanks for making me re-read. So there is no penalty for 0/00 because you must not have it (one has to go).
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Old Wed Dec 11, 2019, 08:46am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valley Man View Post
You are not permitted to use 6, 7, 8, and 9. You are not permitted to have 0 and 00.

Why are those not illegal uniforms and penalized when we verify the books? I understand you may not participate with those numbers without penalty, but I have trouble verifying a book with those in it.

...

Thoughts?
I'm never looking for more reasons to penalize teams. Get over to the table at the 12-13 minute mark so that if you find any discrepancies, you can inform the coach and give him/her a chance to rectify before we hit the 10-minute mark.
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Last edited by Raymond; Wed Dec 11, 2019 at 11:09am.
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Old Wed Dec 11, 2019, 08:47am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
Do not confuse using an illegal number on a jersey, such as 6, 7, or 8, with supplying an improper team roster to the scorer. They are two different rules.

The illegal number on a jersey situation does require the team member to participate in order to warrant a direct technical foul to the head coach. The improper team list scenario does not require any participation. The penalty is also different as it would be a team technical foul.
It's actually an administrative technical foul, though it is a distinction without any difference.
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Old Wed Dec 11, 2019, 09:12am
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Confused In Connecticut ...



Numbers shall adhere to the following: Each team member shall be numbered on the front and back of the
team jersey with plain Arabic numerals. The following numbers are legal: 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 00, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55. A team member list shall not have both numbers 0 and 00.

A team shall not: Have identical numbers on team members and/or players. Penalized when discovered.

The head coach shall not permit a team member to participate while wearing an illegal uniform. Penalized when discovered.


By rule, are 0 and 00 considered to be identical numbers?

Can one begin a game (ten minute mark or jump ball) with the officials being aware both a 0 and 00 in the book, but not necessarily participating (playing in the game)?

After the ten minute mark, but before the jump ball, to whom is the technical foul charged if there is both a 0 and 00 discovered in the book?

If both bench personnel (have not yet played) 0 and 00 are in the book which is discovered after the jump ball, to whom is the technical foul charged?

Do both 0 and 00 have to play (participate as players in the game) for either type of technical foul, team or head coach, to be charged?

Can it ever occur that both a team technical foul and a head coach technical foul are charged in the same game for 0 and 00 in the book and both playing later in the game?

After technical fouls, or either type, are charged, can both 0 and 00 then "legally" participate (play in the game) (unlike identical numbers, which I believe, can never both play in the game)?

I'm so confused that I don't even know how to ask all the permutations of my questions.

Help.

I'm so confused.

Can someone please shed some light on this purely academic (probably won't happen in a real game) situation?

Any simple reminders?
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Last edited by BillyMac; Wed Dec 11, 2019 at 10:32am.
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Old Wed Dec 11, 2019, 11:06am
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Too funny .. thanks BillMac

Raymond .. I do check the books early to warn off penalties thanks for the reminder.

Combining both posts from you guys


"Coach you have a 7 in the book, if they play it is a T you know this correct?"
and

"Coach you have a 0 and a 00 in the book those are identical numbers and one has to change."
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  #9 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 12, 2019, 08:32pm
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Seems silly to me. Why not allow both? They are distinctive. You can have number 1 as well as 11. Why not allow 0 as well as 00?

(and I do not care about deep fuzzy math terms and such. allowing it would eliminate so much unnecessary stuff in the books)
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Old Thu Dec 12, 2019, 11:42pm
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Statistical software cannot distinguish between 0 and 00. Surprisingly enough, scoreboards can distinguish between someone wearing 0 and 00.

In that regard, I would allow numbers 6 and greater, as long as there is a systematic way of signaling them (either turning the hand sideways, like lacrosse, or showing the tens digit, followed by the ones digit, each with both hands if necessary, like FIBA).
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Old Fri Dec 13, 2019, 11:45am
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2008-09 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations
SITUATION 2: A team has members with No. 0 and No. 00 listed in the scorebook and it is discovered (a) with 14 minutes on the clock prior to the game, (b) with 8 minutes on the clock prior to the game or (c) after the game starts. RULING: In (a), changes can be made without penalty. In (b), if a number is changed in the scorebook, a team technical is charged. The offended team is awarded two free throws and a throw-in at the division line to begin the game. The arrow is toward the offending team. If no changes are made to the scorebook, no infraction has occurred. In (c), after the game starts, there is no infraction if only one of the team members (No. 0 or No. 00) participates. If the second team member wishes to participate, the result is an illegal number when "discovered." The penalty is a direct technical foul on the head coach for an illegal uniform. Two free throws and a division line throw-in for the offended team and loss of coaching box privileges for the offending coach. The second team member (with the illegal uniform number) may participate without further penalty and is NOT required to change his/her number. Another possibility exists after the game starts when one of the team members wants to change his/her number prior to participating. The result is a team technical foul (no loss of coaching box) for changing the scorebook. COMMENT: No team should have both No. 0 and No. 00 on its regular roster. The infraction is likely due to bringing a player up or down a level. Therefore, it is possible the team has access to other legal uniforms to replace a uniform with an illegal number. (3-4-3d; 10-1-2; 10-5-4)
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Old Fri Dec 13, 2019, 05:20pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
Statistical software cannot distinguish between 0 and 00. Surprisingly enough, scoreboards can distinguish between someone wearing 0 and 00.

In that regard, I would allow numbers 6 and greater, as long as there is a systematic way of signaling them (either turning the hand sideways, like lacrosse, or showing the tens digit, followed by the ones digit, each with both hands if necessary, like FIBA).
Blame bad programmers who think a number on a jersey should be treated as a number instead of a character - 'cause, well, Magic and Jordan together are equal to Mutombo...
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Old Fri Dec 13, 2019, 05:56pm
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Nice Citation ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Indianaref View Post
2008-09 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations
SITUATION 2: A team has members with No. 0 and No. 00 listed in the scorebook and it is discovered (a) with 14 minutes on the clock prior to the game, (b) with 8 minutes on the clock prior to the game or (c) after the game starts. RULING: In (a), changes can be made without penalty. In (b), if a number is changed in the scorebook, a team technical is charged. The offended team is awarded two free throws and a throw-in at the division line to begin the game. The arrow is toward the offending team. If no changes are made to the scorebook, no infraction has occurred. In (c), after the game starts, there is no infraction if only one of the team members (No. 0 or No. 00) participates. If the second team member wishes to participate, the result is an illegal number when "discovered." The penalty is a direct technical foul on the head coach for an illegal uniform. Two free throws and a division line throw-in for the offended team and loss of coaching box privileges for the offending coach. The second team member (with the illegal uniform number) may participate without further penalty and is NOT required to change his/her number. Another possibility exists after the game starts when one of the team members wants to change his/her number prior to participating. The result is a team technical foul (no loss of coaching box) for changing the scorebook. COMMENT: No team should have both No. 0 and No. 00 on its regular roster. The infraction is likely due to bringing a player up or down a level. Therefore, it is possible the team has access to other legal uniforms to replace a uniform with an illegal number. (3-4-3d; 10-1-2; 10-5-4)
Thanks Indianaref.
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Old Fri Dec 13, 2019, 07:53pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Thanks Indianaref.
That interp does not mesh with the rules. I disagreed with it back then and still do today. Neither 0 nor 00 are illegal numbers. Both are clearly listed as legal numbers in the rules book. The only prohibition is on the team list having both.

There is absolutely no requirement that any team member participate. The rule solely states that the team list cannot include both numbers.

Last edited by Nevadaref; Sat Dec 14, 2019 at 01:22am.
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Old Fri Dec 13, 2019, 11:49pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmwking View Post
Blame bad programmers who think a number on a jersey should be treated as a number instead of a character
I had typed up something like this twice before deleting it twice. Since the thread has already been hijacked, I guess it doesn't matter anymore.

Seriously, what arithmetic operations are we planning to do with jersey numbers?
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