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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Wed Dec 04, 2019, 01:52pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
Do what your supervisor tells you to do for his/her games. 50 people in this forum can tell you not to be a plumber, but that will mean nothing if your assignor expects you inform players they cannot wear them during warmups.
And if your supervisor does not have a position on this because it has never come up, then make a judgment. As officials, we control the darn game, not the players and the coaches. That is what you are paid to do. This is where you have to be willing to use your authority because if it is other things in the game you have to tell coaches and players things they do not like.

I had a coach come out onto the court to help a player last night that might have been injured, he did not like it but I had to inform him his player had to come out of the game after being fouled. He got over it when I enforced a rule. And he tried to blame it on one of my partners for telling him he could come out to check on his player. But I still had a rule available to enforce, even if the player was technically OK to participate. Sometimes we need to just have the courage to enforce rules even if there is something we do not want to cause a problem. I have also learned that you will get their respect more if you do what is right than always trying to hide under a rock and not cause any problems. Because the other coach is watching too, not just the coach you have to give the bad news to. Or the multiple coaches in the stands watching you as well.

Peace
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Wed Dec 04, 2019, 01:54pm
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Wish It Was Clearer ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by LRZ View Post
It's neither clear nor simple.
Agree. 3.5 SITUATION A was somewhat helpful, but it's no longer in the casebook.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
3.5 SITUATION A: What are the standards which the referee must use in determining whether a team member will be permitted to wear certain equipment? RULING: … There are three criteria which determine the legality of equipment. First, any equipment which, in the judgment of the referee, is dangerous to others … It will be noted that the listing of equipment which is always illegal is not inclusive. It cannot identify every item which is not permitted. The generalization is required since the referee’s judgment is necessary. The second standard provides that “any equipment which is unnatural and designed to increase the player’s height or vertical reach, or to gain a competitive advantage, shall not be used.” The referee is given no leeway here and judgment is not required. The third criterion provides that equipment used must be appropriate for basketball and not be confusing.
Let's move away from casebook plays and stick with the rules.

2-2: The officials’ jurisdiction, prior to the game, begins when they
arrive on the floor. The officials’ arrival on the floor shall be at least 15
minutes before the scheduled starting time of the game.

3-5-1: The referee shall not permit any team member to wear
equipment or apparel which, in his/her judgment, is dangerous or confusing
to other players or is not appropriate.

3-6-7: The referee shall not permit any team member to participate if in his/her
judgment any item constitutes a safety concern, such as, but not limited to, a
player’s fingernails or hairstyle.


Somewhat subjective ("judgment") and are not specific to the game or pregame ("participate").

How about "team member" rather than "player"?

4-34-4: A team member is a member of bench personnel who is in
uniform and is eligible to become a player.
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“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Wed Dec 04, 2019 at 02:21pm.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Wed Dec 04, 2019, 02:06pm
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And/Or ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
I had a coach come out onto the court to help a player last night that might have been injured ...
2011-12 NFHS Basketball Rules 3-3-6: A player who has been injured to the extent that the coach or
any other bench personnel is beckoned and/or comes onto the court shall be
directed to leave the game, unless a time-out is requested by, and granted
to, his/her teamand the situation can be corrected by the end of the time-out.

2019-20 NFHS Basketball Rules 3-3-6: A player who has been injured to the extent that the coach or
any other bench personnel is beckoned and comes onto the court shall be
directed to leave the game, unless a time-out is requested by, and granted
to, his/her team and the situation can be corrected by the end of the timeout.


Why the unannounced change?
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Wed Dec 04, 2019 at 02:22pm.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Wed Dec 04, 2019, 02:37pm
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Id imagine it would be so that if an official was a bit jumpy and beckoned a coach for a player that didn't need attention you don't make a player come out unnecessarily.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Wed Dec 04, 2019, 02:46pm
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Overly Cautious Official ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB View Post
Id imagine it would be so that if an official was a bit jumpy and beckoned a coach for a player that didn't need attention you don't make a player come out unnecessarily.
Good point.

Previous to the unannounced change, by rule, if an overly cautious official beckoned a coach, who didn't come onto the court, and the player was immediately ready to play, the team would be charged with a timeout or have to replace the player.

Again, by rule, not by practice, hopefully the official was not both overly cautious and overly officious.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Wed Dec 04, 2019 at 03:01pm.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Wed Dec 04, 2019, 02:58pm
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There's No Judge In Judgment ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Let's move away from casebook plays and stick with the rules.
Now let's combine the rules:

During the officials’ jurisdiction (when they arrive on the floor) the referee shall not permit any team member (bench personnel in uniform and eligible to become players) to participate with equipment which, in his judgment, is dangerous (constitutes a safety concern) to other players (which can include teammates), or is not appropriate for basketball (not needed to play the game).

If equipment, like headphones, is judged to be a safety concern, or not appropriate for basketball, during the game, why would it be not be judged the same before the game?

I wish it were clearer, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Dec 05, 2019 at 11:47am.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Wed Dec 04, 2019, 02:59pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Good point.

Previous to the unannounced change, by rule, if an overly cautious official beckoned a coach, who didn't come onto the court, and the player was immediately ready to play, the team could be charged with a timeout or have to replace the player (again, by rule, not by practice).
But now, by a literal reading, if the coach comes out but is not beckoned, the conditions are not met to remove the player.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Wed Dec 04, 2019, 03:10pm
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The Plot Thickens ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
But now, by a literal reading, if the coach comes out but is not beckoned, the conditions are not met to remove the player.
Another good point.

It's not a NFHS rule, or interpretation, but we've been told locally that in the case of player going down, if we see the coach coming, we're to start beckoning.

If questioned by the opposing coach, we're to say, "He was beckoned".

In the case of a possible injury, we want the coach out there, and don't want him hesitating because he's afraid of a technical foul.

That would not be a good look for us since one reason why we're out there is for player safety.

10-5-2: Bench personnel, including the head coach, shall not: Enter the court unless by permission of an official to attend an injured player.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Wed Dec 04, 2019 at 03:21pm.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 08, 2019, 12:43am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valley Man View Post
I know they are not basketball equipment and we have discussed that shooter shirts and pants are not either. Anyone got ruling on this for warmups and what rule to use to enforce it other than you can't?
See cases 3.5 Sit A and B and 3.5.3 Sit A. Illegal stuff in warm-ups is addressed immediately. For AirPods, you would want to nip that in the "ear"bud
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Last edited by bucky; Sun Dec 08, 2019 at 01:17am.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 08, 2019, 12:45am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Another good point.

It's not a NFHS rule, or interpretation, but we've been told locally that in the case of player going down, if we see the coach coming, we're to start beckoning.

If questioned by the opposing coach, we're to say, "He was beckoned".

In the case of a possible injury, we want the coach out there, and don't want him hesitating because he's afraid of a technical foul.

That would not be a good look for us since one reason why we're out there is for player safety.

10-5-2: Bench personnel, including the head coach, shall not: Enter the court unless by permission of an official to attend an injured player.
See case 3.3.6 Sit B. If coach rushes onto court without being beckoned, player, even if OK, still has to leave game.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 08, 2019, 01:09am
Show up, keep up, shut up
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LRZ View Post
I suspect AremRed was talking about during warm-ups, not during a game.
Correct!
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 08, 2019, 08:00am
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Opposites ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
See case 3.3.6 Sit B. If coach rushes onto court without being beckoned, player, even if OK, still has to leave game.
Agree (I don't think that I stated otherwise), however with the unannounced rule change the opposite is no longer true (by rule if not by practice), if the coach was beckoned and didn't come out the rulebook (before the unannounced rule change) stated that the player would still have to come out, or sit a tick, due to the word "or" in the old rule.

My quote in bucky's post was in regard to technical fouls in such situations.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 08, 2019, 11:57am
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Let's Go To The Videotape ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
But now, by a literal reading, if the coach comes out but is not beckoned, the conditions are not met to remove the player.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
See case 3.3.6 Sit B. If coach rushes onto court without being beckoned, player, even if OK, still has to leave game.
3.3.6 SITUATION B: A1 appears to be injured and an official properly halts play and the Team A coach rushes onto the court to check A1. However, A1 is OK and seems ready to play within a few seconds. RULING: A1 must be removed as the coach came onto the court. A1 may remain in the game if the coach does not come on the court and A1 is ready to play immediately. If the coach or other bench personnel have come onto the court, the player must be replaced. There is no set amount of time as to what is “immediately,” but it should not involve more than a few seconds and it must be without the coach, athletic trainer or doctor being beckoned and/or entering the court. The coach may also request a time-out to keep the player in the game provided the replacement interval for the substitution has not begun. (10-4-2)

Note that the situation does not say that the coach is beckoned.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 09, 2019, 08:45am
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Random Question- Would bench personnel be allowed to wear headphones? I was at a NFHS game where the assistant coach had headphones in, is that permissible?
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 09, 2019, 11:21am
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Bench Personnel ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bos8 View Post
Random Question- Would bench personnel be allowed to wear headphones? I was at a NFHS game where the assistant coach had headphones in, is that permissible?
Interesting question. Many of us allow kids with jewelry (a safety concern) to sit on the bench, why not headphones (also a safety concern)?
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Dec 09, 2019 at 11:26am.
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