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-   -   Leaving the bench prematurely? (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/104831-leaving-bench-prematurely.html)

Jqb12 Mon Dec 02, 2019 09:46pm

Leaving the bench prematurely?
 
A fellow official saw this in a college game the other day:
With time running out in the 4th quarter, team A takes the lead with 2 seconds left on the clock. With the excitement of their team taking the lead, some of the fans and a couple of the players (bench personnel) run onto the floor to celebrate the victory (prematurely). What do you do as the referee?
Thanks

crosscountry55 Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:14pm

If it’s a NFHS game, immediately upon the score I’m looking for the opposing timeout if they have one. If they do, grant it, note the exact time on the clock, replace time if you have definite knowledge, and clean up but otherwise ignore the shenanigans as it occurred basically simultaneously with the timeout call. Some may disagree but that’s how I would handle it and/or discuss it with my crew.

If the opposing team doesn’t have a timeout or chooses not to use one, or if it isn’t called absolutely immediately, then I have a bench technical per 10-5-2.

Standing by for the NCAA interps of this case. It’s a little different there since the clock automatically stops in this situation.


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ilyazhito Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:34pm

Fans running onto the court is an administrative technical foul (10.2.8.d). The players coming onto the court is a class B technical foul charged to each player, and a class B technical foul charged to the head coach (10.4.2.h). Shoot two free throws (one for the administrative technical foul and one for the class B technical foul) and return to the point of interruption, which is a throw-in for B with 2 seconds left with the right to run the endline.

Jqb12 Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:43pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by crosscountry55 (Post 1035659)
If it’s a NFHS game, immediately upon the score I’m looking for the opposing timeout if they have one. If they do, grant it, note the exact time on the clock, replace time if you have definite knowledge, and clean up but otherwise ignore the shenanigans as it occurred basically simultaneously with the timeout call. Some may disagree but that’s how I would handle it and/or discuss it with my crew.

If the opposing team doesn’t have a timeout or chooses not to use one, or if it isn’t called absolutely immediately, then I have a bench technical per 10-5-2.

Standing by for the NCAA interps of this case. It’s a little different there since the clock automatically stops in this situation.


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Would Rule 10-6-5 (Head Coach'e Rule) cover it better being that the players didn't leave the bench during a fight situation?

Jqb12 Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:44pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1035662)
Fans running onto the court is an administrative technical foul (10.2.8.d). The players coming onto the court is a class B technical foul charged to each player, and a class B technical foul charged to the head coach (10.4.2.h). Shoot two free throws (one for the administrative technical foul and one for the class B technical foul) and return to the point of interruption, which is a throw-in for B with 2 seconds left with the right to run the endline.

Is this the NCAA interpretation?

crosscountry55 Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:49pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jqb12 (Post 1035663)
Would Rule 10-6-5 (Head Coach'e Rule) cover it better being that the players didn't leave the bench during a fight situation?



You’re conflating 10-5-2 with 10-5-5. 10-5-2 is adequate here and has nothing to do with a fight/fighting.


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bob jenkins Tue Dec 03, 2019 08:40am

Quote:

Originally Posted by crosscountry55 (Post 1035659)

Standing by for the NCAA interps of this case.

From the NCAAM case book; empahsis added (NCAAW is at least substatially the same). In 99% of the cases, the actions do not stop the ball from being put in play -- there's a TO, or a monitor review, or the team members don't get far enough on the floor to stop the long pass by the other team, or ...

A.R. 263. Team B leads, 67-66. A1’s two-point try for goal is successful, but
there is no indication that time has expired. Assuming that the successful try
was a game-ending and winning goal:
1. Bench personnel from Team A; or
2. Fans from Team A go onto the playing court to celebrate.
RULING: When the celebration causes a delay by preventing the ball
from being promptly made live
or prevents continuous play:
1: A CLASS B technical foul shall be assessed to the head coach of
Team A. The coach’s technical foul does not count toward the team
foul total but does count toward the coach’s ejection.
2: An administrative technical foul shall be assessed to the offending
team. This administrative technical foul does not apply to the team
foul total.
Any player from Team B shall attempt one free throw and play shall
resume at the point of interruption. When the celebration does not
delay or interfere with play, the celebration shall be ignored.

(Rule 10-2.8.d and Penalty, and 10-4.2.h and Penalty)

Jqb12 Tue Dec 03, 2019 09:02am

Thank You

Jqb12 Tue Dec 03, 2019 09:03am

Quote:

Originally Posted by crosscountry55 (Post 1035665)
You’re conflating 10-5-2 with 10-5-5. 10-5-2 is adequate here and has nothing to do with a fight/fighting.


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OK, I got it
Thanks

ilyazhito Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:20am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1035670)
From the NCAAM case book; empahsis added (NCAAW is at least substatially the same). In 99% of the cases, the actions do not stop the ball from being put in play -- there's a TO, or a monitor review, or the team members don't get far enough on the floor to stop the long pass by the other team, or ...

A.R. 263. Team B leads, 67-66. A1’s two-point try for goal is successful, but
there is no indication that time has expired. Assuming that the successful try
was a game-ending and winning goal:
1. Bench personnel from Team A; or
2. Fans from Team A go onto the playing court to celebrate.
RULING: When the celebration causes a delay by preventing the ball
from being promptly made live
or prevents continuous play:
1: A CLASS B technical foul shall be assessed to the head coach of
Team A. The coach’s technical foul does not count toward the team
foul total but does count toward the coach’s ejection.
2: An administrative technical foul shall be assessed to the offending
team. This administrative technical foul does not apply to the team
foul total.
Any player from Team B shall attempt one free throw and play shall
resume at the point of interruption. When the celebration does not
delay or interfere with play, the celebration shall be ignored.

(Rule 10-2.8.d and Penalty, and 10-4.2.h and Penalty)

Why is there only one free throw? AFAIK, both Class B and administrative technical fouls have a 1 free throw penalty, so if both happen simultaneously, it would only make sense to enforce both fouls.

BillyMac Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:06pm

Bench Personnel ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by crosscountry55 (Post 1035665)
10-5-2 is adequate here and has nothing to do with a fight/fighting.

10-5-2:Bench personnel, including the head coach, shall not:
Enter the court unless by permission of an official to attend an
injured player.

bob jenkins Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:45pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1035675)
Why is there only one free throw? AFAIK, both Class B and administrative technical fouls have a 1 free throw penalty, so if both happen simultaneously, it would only make sense to enforce both fouls.

The two cases in the AR are separate. In one, the bench (and no fans) goes out; in two the fans (and no bench) goes out.

That said, if the both went out, the first would stop all action, so the second wouldn't further delay the game.

ilyazhito Tue Dec 03, 2019 01:14pm

That makes sense, however there is no current A.R. that addresses both situations happening as the OP describes. My solution might resolve the OP situation.

Camron Rust Tue Dec 03, 2019 02:05pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1035690)
That makes sense, however there is no current A.R. that addresses both situations happening as the OP describes. My solution might resolve the OP situation.

We don't need AR's that cover all possible combinations of events. If we did, the book would be the size of the Encyclopedia Britannica.

BillyMac Tue Dec 03, 2019 02:12pm

And Who's Jiminy Cricket ???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 1035698)
We don't need AR's that cover all possible combinations of events. If we did, the book would be the size of the Encyclopedia Britannica.

What's an Encyclopedia Britannica?

https://youtu.be/pP4aIH9s_ZI

https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.E...=0&w=210&h=163


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