2019-20 NFHS: Rumors/Desires?
 

It's right around the time of year when the rules committee meets to vote on rules changes. Any rumblings? What do you want to see?

I'd get rid of the seatbelt rule in a heartbeat if I had a choice of one change, and it's not even really close. I can't think of other rules that I hate as much as that one. I doubt it happens despite its inclusion in the questionnaire, but one can dream.

My only real desire is that they change the BC rule to what the college rule is. It is time to stop with this madness IMO.

I would be fine with other college rules coming to the NF level also like the shot clock so that everyone can find an excuse to complain about that rule.

Mechanically I would like to see for use to go opposite table on fouls. I would like to add a few more signals that are used at other levels.

Otherwise, I could almost not care at all what is changed. At a different part of my career and what rules they play with I will adjust either way.

Peace

For mechanics, I would like to see the NFHS mechanics manual go walk-and-talk. That's about it for me.

I forgot that this was a mechanics change year, as well.

Yeah, walk-and-talk would be great, but here a lot of people do it anyway. It’s not something the powers-that-be really care about. But a change would silence the few that do get upset.

I’m ambivalent on opposite vs. tableside. I don’t imagine that one even being considered.

I’d also like to see stopping the clock on OOB go away. Too many people like to have the notion that the timer is actually watching for our hand.

1. Changing the goaltending rule to mimic NBA/NCAA-M/NCAA-W/FIBA (every f-ing major rule set btw) where you cannot block the ball once it has touched the backboard. This is an easy rule change, easy to call, easy to write, and it blows my mind they haven't done it.

2. Eliminating the INANE "resumption of play procedure". Putting the ball down is an EASY way to piss off players, coaches, and fans and even if the team is extremely late makes the ref crew look terrible. Give us the option to assess a delay-of-game warning like every other reasonable rule set out there.

3. Eliminating the need for a coach to sit down after a direct or indirect technical foul. I get the reasoning but it pisses off the coaches and makes refs a) less likely to call technical fouls on the coach/bench and b) less likely to have the balls and make the coach sit after the tech. And even if they are told to sit they are terrible at remembering and almost never get a second one for standing.

4. Point of emphasis for schools properly marking coaching box and officials enforcing it. I have seen SO MANY games this year with the floor not marked properly, not all the chairs inside the team area, coaches on the floor yelling at officials, coaches camping at halfcourt to coach offense/defense on other side of the floor, and assistant coaches standing and in one case in my game coming out of the head coaching box to call a play at half court. I heard many times this season "you're the only one to enforce this all year" and that's wrong.

There are other ones: delayed violation for player running OOB along the baseline, re-subbing once the ball has become live instead of sit-a-tick, requiring two horns for replacements intervals and officials calling techs when coaches slow roll a replacement sub, restricted area, shot clock (gonna have way more stoppages due to shitty operators), changing full timeouts to 75 seconds, allowing the headbands with extensions for girls (so dumb that pro and college allow it yet it's a "safety issue" in HS), clarifying the team control rule for fouls during throw-ins only.

But I digress.

Your coaches would not like me then.

They don’t like me either. :cool:

This is something that often upsets those locally that have not much else to worry about. I still think we should eventually stop, but I also do not see the big deal if someone is slightly moving. It is kind of like how you signal a directional point and someone cares that you did not give the signal with 4 fingers and a tucked thumb. I had someone at my State Finals games make a comment to me about my "one finger point." No one over us that weekend said a word about it, but I did get an official that knows me (and I respect BTW) send me a text about my signal.

I’m ambivalent on opposite vs. tableside. I don’t imagine that one even being considered.[/QUOTE]

It won't be. I just wish we would stop trying to placate coaches after calls. We are not going to change their minds.

It is done at the Men's college level because many people do not do it properly. I get it and used to think the same way, but that split second I think gets most officials to slow down a bit. And because it is a requirement, you see fewer mistakes IMO at the college level. Of course, not everyone has this problem, but I would not want to see that go away.

Peace

I do not totally disagree, just think officials at those levels get this wrong still. I have seen so many plays at the NCAA level where the ball touched by the defender first and then hits the backboard and it is called. I still think the current rule fits better and honestly wish the NCAA would get rid of this on the Men's side. I get it, leave the ball alone but there is still too much of a debate over this call that I feel was not there before also.

NCAA Men's still has this procedure for the most part (which we do not use the delays there either). It is rarely used by anyone at any level. And in my experience you do it once, it usually shut down the delays.

I do not care about this either way. If they change it great. If they don't change it I will sleep the same. It would eliminate one more thing to talk to a coach about if we give a T. But we have to get officials to call the T in the first place, then we can worry about what they do afterward IMO.

Delay for running OOB would be a good change. Also that line "You are the first person to enforce....blah, blah, blah" is just a line given to make it seem like you are being overly technical. It is a lie much of the time. I know officials that have enforced rules in the game right before an that still comes out of their mouth. I would in theory love to have a shot clock in HS, but we are going to be correcting so many mistakes and games will be influenced by all those mistakes that it will become a real distraction. If we cannot get good people to run these clocks at the small college level, we are really going to have issues at the HS level. I would rather not have the headache, but it would be good if run properly, even though I do not think it is going to change the game that much in this era.

Peace

I would be completely content with extending the coaching box to 38 feet. Heck I'd even be in favor of the NBA rule where there is no "box" but once coaches cross the division line it's an automatic T.

I understand the NFHS just increased the box to 28 feet two years ago so it's not going to happen, but it's a losing battle trying to get officials to strictly police coaches being outside the 28-foot line but otherwise behaving. The NFHS would have been better off adding the extra 14 feet toward the division line rather than the endline.

We strictly enforce the restricted area in football yet in basketball too many officials elect to "leave 'em alone as long as they're coaching." Not identical sports but it's not going to change no matter how many POEs come out.

I do agree with this.

WAY too many officials spend too much time talking to and trying to placate coaches.

WAY too many coaches want unnecessary explanations.

I believe that's why NCAA-M elected to start going opposite, however many years ago that was.

I get that point, but I do not think we are that strict about the coaching box in football or Restricted Area. We have many coaches on the field when they are not supposed to be. It is just more acceptable to enforce those rules if violated. We have a different cat that coaches basketball where they feel we should be doing other things. Also, keep in mind in football we have a play and then we reset. In basketball, the game is constantly going much of the time. I think that leads to a different attitude about when those rules are violated in those respective sports.

Peace

I believe NCAA Men's went to tableside for a year or two and scrapped it. And the reasoning at the time, if I remember, was too much interaction with coaches. I remember some did not like the change back to opposite table, but I have not heard much complaining about it since the change in my world.

Peace

While Strolling Through The Park One Day ...
 

NFHS 2018-19 Basketball Rules Changes came out on on May 16, 2018 last year.

A reminder of what the NFHS may be thinking about:

https://forum.officiating.com/basket...ml#post1030020

Slow It Down ...
 

Hopefully those "people" aren't officials. Because officials know the real reason why high school officials do this.

That split second gives the high school officials a chance to see what their partner's have on double whistles. Two open hands. One open hand and one closed fist. One open hand and one held ball signal. The split second allows some eye contact and communication before another signal is given, like a direction, or a preliminary foul signal.

To number 1, I say AMEN! I would not like to have to change what I call goaltending just because I work a high school game today and a (Junior) College game tomorrow. I would like to add that offensive goaltending is not a thing, unless the makers of the NFHS rules want alley-oops to be illegal (alley-oops would be illegal by application of goaltending rules to the offense, at least as the rules are currently written).

Number 2 makes sense as well. I would not mind that, because that might make some officials less reluctant to warn and penalize teams for delay of games.

I have done #3 on multiple occasions. There was one tie where I gave a technical foul to a middle school coach for yelling at the officials while being on the other side of the division line. I had also called a technical foul on a girls JV coach for jumping up and down to protest a traveling call. When I saw her standing later in the game, I reminded her that she needed to sit. When she understood that the requirement to sit after a technical foul is the rule in high school, she thanked me for clarifying the situation, and the game moved on with no further incidents.

If I had a choice for one rule change, I would push most strongly for the shot clock, because it would make the DMV area, if not the nation, consistent in terms of pace of play. Maryland, DC, and the other shot clock states are not going to abolish the shot clock just because other states nearby don't use them, so adopting a shot clock nationwide would bring them back into alignment with NFHS, and allow the other 40 or so state athletic associations to hear whatever good ideas these states have to bring to the table. If all states have a shot clock, then there would not be as big of a learning curve for officials who move between states (a common sithation, because many people move for work anyway), or who try to move from high school to college ball. This is in addition to no stalling, reduced deliberate fouls, and other officiating benefits of implementing a shot clock.

Great point. I don't know why some call it the "stop-the-clock" signal. It is a violation signal. If they get rid of the violation signal for OOB plays (like NCAAW), then they better at least eliminate it for all violations.

Many make some good suggestions. To them add:

*) Eliminate jackets. A totally, unnecessary expense/use.
*) Eliminate captains meetings. A totally, unnecessary time waster.
*) Meet both coaches simultaneously. This would be a nice time saver and prohibit the chance of perceived bias/favoritism. If still have captains, have them attend this meeting too.
*) Eliminate rules that are never enforced.

Just because officials at the NBA/NCAA-M/NCAA-W/FIBA level sometimes get goaltending calls wrong doesn't mean we should keep the HS rule as-is. This would create much greater continuity between rule sets on a play that happens more and more often.

Again, just because NCAA-M officials are hesitant to give DoG warnings doesn't mean it would be a bad change at the HS level. HS officials put the ball down regularly, which pisses everyone off. Change it to a warning put in the book and HS officials would give that warning and everyone would be less upset overall.

Agreed on everything else.

I'd freeze to death before a game if I didn't have my jacket. Gyms aren't that warm in Minnesota and Wisconsin

I like the jackets. Keeps me warm in some gyms. I don't like standing out too much before games and I think it looks sharp. The cost isn't really all that much.

Captains meetings I don't really care for, but it's nice to touch base with at least some of the players before the game.

Not sure about your state but the NFHS Officials Manual says we are to meet both coaches at the same time around the 12:00 minute mark. Soo......

It is called that because it is one of three ways to actually stop the clock.

Listed that way in the signal section of the rulebook. ;)

Peace

But the rules we have in place at the HS level is because of the level of the officials we are working with as well. So you can change the rule, but that does not mean it is going to make the game better or different or like those other levels. To me, this is not a rule that would be making right a vast injustice in the game. It would just be a rules change that no one would understand the same way.

I am lucky to see even this done in the first place like 2 or 3 times the entire year. My point is that it is not pissing many people off if it is not being used in the first place. Heck, it is often not encouraged to be used where I am mostly. So again the rule can change, but it will not change what is happening in the game, which is kind of my point.


Peace

When the ball goes out of bounds everyone in the gym knows the ball is dead and the clock stops. Signaling "stop the clock" (yes, it is a "stop the clock for violation" signal) is pointless.

The NFHS doesn't say anything about jackets in the Rules. I don't think the Manual mentions them either. So that's your state's problem.

It's enforced strictly here. And if you're caught not enforcing it you'll hear about it.

I truly think that I am #1 when it comes to complaining about being cold. I feel freezing in the summer, let alone the winter so I understand however....

So does that mean you die at every half-time? Because jackets are not worn when coming to the court before the second half starts. And I hope that you do not say that you got warm by officiating the first half, when doing warm-ups before a game starts is prescribed by everyone.:cool:

So you care about not standing out for a bit before the game even though you will stand out for the rest of the game, including half-time?

It does not say anything about officiating shirts (vertical black/white stripes, grey w/ pin stripes, etc.) either in the Rules but I bet you wear one. Maybe re-read the manual. You might find jackets mentioned there.

Yes, I am aware. It is just a certain level of redundancy that discourages me. I do like your point about it giving officials a millisecond to reflect before they act.

Perhaps, if all high school gyms had Precision Timing System equipment, then we could think about abolishing the "stop clock for violation signal". However, since that is not the case, the 3 stop clock signals are what stop the game clock, until someone will come up with a 4th approved signal to stop the clock for a timeout that is different from the stop-clock-for-violation signal.

Re: jackets, they are usually the only thing out there that can identify which association an official belongs to (jackets may have local, as well as state, identifiers on them), unless an association pays extra money to buy it's members custom shirts. So, jackets have multiple practical functions.

2019-20 NFHS: Rumors/Desires?
 

The WHISTLE *always* stops the clock. No hand signal needed.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

I do not doubt you, at least in your area/state, but I am yet to see a jacket with a local association patch/logo on it. I see patches (association/state/US flag) on shirts.

In an odd twist however, I just received a new jacket and am planning on putting a state association patch on it.

When it can be heard. The hand is a backup for when it can't.

It isn't officials who have a huge learning curve when it comes to the shot clock. ;)

And I'm not sure how eliminating stalling benefits officials. :confused:

I don't think that is the rule in NCAA-M. At least not what you wrote.

It's the norm in VA. Have yet to see a HS jacket that didn't have the association logo on it.

So define the mechanic for 0.000001% of the games. Got it.

Never is an issue if it is not enforced here. If anything we are asked to do it early and not late in the 4th quarter when we have not addressed getting out of huddles before this time. So I guess this is an area issue that is not one here for the most part. I hardly see a single official ever do this. When I have done this, the teams are usually out of the huddle and wondering around like they have no idea what they are supposed to do. Then they are ready the rest of the game for some strange and odd reason. ;)

Peace

I do not know what the price is now, but this used to be about a $5000 investment for each school. And the schools that once had this, do not use it anymore because they did not pay for it but were using it in the first place, but someone donated the system to eventually have it purchased. Now we have issues getting an extra $5 in pay and now we want to add another expense to schools and we have not even talked about a shot clock, which people like yourself keep advocating for that will also be very expensive. I remember when my state was big on uniform enforcement and schools were crying poor as it cost them several thousands of dollars just to purchase uniforms for one of the teams and that they uniform purchasing were on like a 3 or 4-year cycle.

BTW, the "open hand" signal is not just for violations, it is for all stoppages of clock that do not involve a foul or a held ball. IJS.

Players have warmups, so should we in some way. And in my state mostly we have a state patch on the jacket. Not everyone puts something on from their association. I used to but I work so many different places it was a pain to try to match where I was working.

Peace

Wrong.

Rule 2-1-1: "The official's uniform shall be a black-and-white striped shirt..."

I'm not the one who wants to get rid of jackets, so why would I look it up?
If you actually think that the timer is looking for your hand on an OOB call, I don't know what to say. I've worked plenty of games (without PTS) under mechanics sets where you don't stop the clock on OOB and I've never had the timer ask "Can you put your hand up so I know when to stop the clock?"

Also, why would one's association need to be identified? For the fans?

Timers aren't looking for our hand. When the ball goes OOB they know the clock is supposed to stop, regardless of whether they hear the whistle or not. If I put my hand up on an OOB and don't blow my whistle, my hand being up is not causing the timer to stop/not stop the clock.

While we're on this subject, chopping is pointless most of the time, too. When I used to run clocks in my pre-officiating days, I was never looking for an official's chop; I was looking for the ball to be touched.

Another change I'd be happy to see is getting rid of visible 10-second backcourt counts. I know the NFHS rule is different than NCAA as to when the count starts after a throw-in (player control vs. first touch) but in most situations the count still starts at the same time.

This won't happen until we get a shot clock, and I'm not a shot clock advocate. So I'll carry on.

The mechanic IMO has little or nothing to do with what the timer is watching. The issue is that officials will probably be pointing the wrong way a lot if you take this away. I know we try to make things because we understand how it is done and have been doing it for some time, but remember NF mechanics are for officials all level of officials. That means the first year guy that has a hard time blowing their damn whistle. We cannot come at this only from the perspective of what we have been doing for over 10 years and the NCAA who has very experienced and trained officials doing the very same thing. As a clinician for my state, I can tell you this might not be earth-shattering of a mechanic, but it helps eliminate some basic issue on basic plays.

Peace

Even NCAA has not gotten rid of visible 10-second backcourt counts. By rule and the CCA Manuals, there still is a visible 10-second count when the shot clock is off (usually in the last 30 seconds of the period) or unavailable (e.g. shot clock malfunction, shot clock is kept on an alternate timing device at the table).

SC Official, I thought you were an NCAA Men's official, and that rule set, like NFHS, requires that an official stop the clock on all fouls and violations, with an open hand (violations and miscellaneous), fist (fouls), or thumbs up (held balls). J.D. Collins has been making that a point of emphasis in his training videos for the last few years, and in the last few editions of the CCA Men's Manual. Unless the rules redefine the clock as stopping on the whistle, which is now the case for NBA rules, the official's signal is how the clock is stopped, by rule. I have seen officials tell the timer to "watch my hand/watch my signal" when starting and/or stopping the clock, especially in the last minute of a quarter, so at least some timers still react to the official's signals to start/stop the game clock.

I would also like to see the backcourt rules changed to match NCAA. The NCAA rule is fairer to the offense (they can retrieve all deflected balls, not just ones that the defense touched last), and more consistent to administer (count starts when the ball is touched, and the touch is usually accompanied by another visual cue in the shot clock starting).

Odd Plays, But They Happen ...
 

How about when a ball handler's shoe just barely touches a boundary? Or when a ball just barely touches a boundary? Or when the ball just barely touches a guy wire? Does everyone in the gymnasium, including the timekeeper, know that the ball is dead and the clock stops unless an official puts a whistle on the play? Does everyone in the gymnasium, and all timekeepers (at all levels of interscholastic basketball, maybe students in some freshman, or middle school games) know that the ball cannot legally pass over a rectangular backboard from either direction, or that the back of a backboard is out of bounds?

Does everyone in the gymnasium, and all timekeepers (at all levels of interscholastic basketball) know that when a ball handler inadvertently touches someone who is out of bounds (another player, a photographer, a coach, an official, etc.), without gaining an advantage, it's not considered an out of bounds violation?

SC Official makes a good point, most out of bounds violations are pretty obvious, but we still need officials (with a whistle and hopefully a signal) to rule on some odd, or close, situations.

Don't Give Me The Finger ...
 

Comes up about every five or ten years here in my little corner of Connecticut. We're encouraged to do it the proper way, years go by and some rookies, who don't know any better, and some veterans, start using one finger, so we're reminded again.

It's not a big deal, but we might as well all be consistent.

Look For The Union Label ...
 

Here in Connecticut each of our six local IAABO boards have their own style of jacket with their own local board logo embroidered on the jacket.

We are not robots. Just like we all do not deal with coaches and players the same, why do people care if I point with one finger or two? I would feel differently if how your hand looks make the call better, but it doesn't.

Peace

Do As I Say, Not As I Do ???
 

You make a good point (get the call right and who cares about this signal) but aren't you some type of teacher/clinician/instructor in your state, or local area? Do you teach proper signals (maybe referring to the manual) or do you just let the new guys free lance, or use signals that they see their partners (both good and bad) use, or see on television in college or professional games?

To paraphrase Admiral Farragut, "Damn the NFHS Signal Chart, full speed ahead".

While there are much more important (and difficult) things for rookies to learn, don't you want them to, at least, start off using the proper signals (pretty easy to teach)? And I'm sure that there were many officials watching you work your state final. There are probably young officials who hang around to watch your regular season games as well. Don't you want to set a good example for your pupils/students/learners/members, many of whom want to emulate you?

Was, "We are not robots", your response to your friend who had the courage to offer constructive criticism to such a highly respected veteran official as yourself, while working a state final game, the ultimate form of respect for a high school official?

Full disclosure, we do a poor job here in my little corner of Connecticut of teaching player control foul signals. And nobody calls anybody out on an incorrect player control foul signal. Never. It's pretty much anything goes, just get it right, and/or sell it.

Once again you think I need a lecture on what the rules and mechanics are. I don't.

What the rule says =/= What actually happens

Timers stop the clock when the whistle blows. They aren't looking at your hand. Hate to break it to you.

Then the whistle is sufficient.

Again, timers are not looking at our hand.

My response to officials who opine and nitpick about "approved" signals such as a one- or two-finger directional instead of four...

Do you give a prelim on every foul?
Do you signal a 60-second timeout with open hands instead of fists?
Do you "score the goal" as it looks on the signal chart?
Do you signal "1 and 1" with arms outstretched to the sides?
Do you signal a blocking foul with opens hands on the hips instead of fists?

I'm sure there are plenty more. Unless you can answer "yes" to every one of these questions, shut up.

Forgive me, but what does my position have to do with my opinion? If I am that, I do not subscribe to the position that your signal with a certain amount of fingers is as important as you being in the right position to make a call. Or why you missed that foul or why you did not have a call when your partner was blocked? Those are bigger issues than if your thumb is tucked properly.

I also teach officials that are newer a lot. They are worried about so much because we expect them to know a lot at once. It is better to get them doing some basic things first and then later add some more detail. We have officials that cannot get their arm up to stop the clock. Why would I worry about what their hand looks like on the signal when there stop clock signal is not distinguishable between a violation or a foul?

I want them to look like they half-way know they are doing on the court. No coach is going to care what their hands looks like if they will not even blow their whistle for the obvious foul or violation.

I remember my very first games and I could not get my hand up when I blew my whistle. So my partner and mentor who I worked several games with told me to just work on getting my arm up. Do not point, do not give a preliminary, just get my arm up and use my voice. When I was able to get my arm up, then add one thing to that sequence. When I got that sequence down, add one more thing to that sequence. It got to the point where each action would have a distinct and measured. A new official is not going to all of a sudden work high-level ball in a year or two for the most part. So they need to be doing things that help them grow, not have their minds spinning over details that no one at their level is going to expect them to master.

The conversation was more extensive and the conversation was with a person that assigns games. I said a lot more to him and he understood my point.

If you have no noticed Billy, I am not a person that sugar coats my comments. One of the reasons I have the respect of many of my peers is I tell people what I feel will help them, not try to fit into some narrative of a book or organization that will not hire them to work any level of games. And I did not get up the latter either by doing all these very specific things that many here keep trying to act are not negotiable.

Peace

Common Ground ...
 

Fully agree. Always have.

Easy Peasy Lemon Squeezy ...
 

Back when I was coaching middle school basketball, I would have student timekeepers and scorekeepers. Of course, I would have to teach them how to keep score, and how to keep time.

Teaching the timekeeper when to start the clock was the hard part.

Teaching the timekeeper when to stop the clock was much, much easier, keep one's finger on the button and stop the clock when you hear a whistle. End of lesson.

One Step At A Time ...
 

Fully agree.

Agree, like pointing the proper way (or a hundred other things). I taught middle school science for over thirty years, and I've served on local board committees that teach rules and teach mechanics to new officials. Teaching isn't easy. Sometimes teachers have to pick and chose what needs to be taught in a limited amount of time to a highly varied group of learners, covering some things in great detail, and glossing over others. It's a form of teaching triage.

Something we are asked to do heavily here, but it almost never stands out unless an official never does it.

I do now, but no one said a thing to me when I didn't for some time.

Absolutely not.

Nope, I give the signal with two fingers about shoulder length. Never had anyone say a word to me about this.

Not on at the spot. I am not sure I give that signal at the table at all times.

I agree.

I do not say this to brag. I worked this past year the very last game of the IHSA Basketball Season. I worked the most prestigious game there is and over 4000 officials would have loved to have worked that game in my place or my partner's place for sure. I cannot recall in my over my 20 plus years more than 5 times where anyone said anything to me about any of these things and in some cases, no one ever said a word, even including camps I attended coming up for high school basketball.

The IHSA makes a training tape every few years and they use the State Finals as examples of good and bad things. The things they will highlight the most are things like positioning at the C or Trail for example. They might talk about how to rotate or when not to rotate. I am sure I will be on the tape when they make the next one for doing something wrong that is not perfect (I was able to avoid it the last two times I was working the State Finals), but I doubt me giving one finger or two is going to even be mentioned when that does happen. I am convinced they have bigger things they want us to do at least here in this state.

Peace

Half Right ...
 

That's the tough one. Old habits die hard.

Preliminary, at the site of the foul? Not usually, especially when I want to sell the call.

To the table? Yes. All the time.

Half right? Do I have to shut up?

Forgot about that, great catch, and I sit corrected about the shirts being mentioned.

You would look it up because you questioned its existence and tend to not take other's word for it.

Speaking of getting rid of BC 10 second visible count, I would like to see the FT 10 second wrist flick go away. Seems pointless and if the argument is so that people can see you counting, then add the same for 3 seconds violation. Don't care which way, just pick one and be consistent. Either we visibly count everything or do not visibly count anything.

Correct but isn't the whistle being blown during those times too? So, no need for hand signal in those cases. Agree?

Priorities ...
 

IAABO International weekly emails us a Play of the Week during the season. They always ask three questions. Was the call correct? Were the officials in the proper position to make the call? Were the signals correct?

These three questions seem to asked (and later answered) in priority order. Proper signals are important, but not as important as making the correct call and being in the right position to make a correct call.

I am not giving a lecture. I am just showing that the things that you consider irrelevant are actually being emphasized by the powers-that-be in NCAA Men's basketball, and are actually being done in practice. I gave you the example of officials reminding timers to "watch my hand" in last-minute situationsthat I have actually observed, as an example of why the stop-clock signal is needed in real life.

I also wanted to clarify what you said about the 10-second count to make it clear what the actual NCAAM (and NCAAW) rule is, and why I would support a change of the NFHS backcourt rules (10-second count and crossing the division line) to its NCAAM counterpart.

Chop To Start The Clock Signal ...
 

Almost forty years of officiating high school basketball, I have never heard of any official ever reminding timekeepers to watch for a stop clock signal near the end of a very close game. Never. Ever.

I have heard (and actually did it many times) of officials reminding timekeepers to watch for a chop to start the clock signal near the end of a very close game.

That is lovely that JD Collins wants NCAA-M officials stopping the clock. That doesn't mean I have to agree with it. Because I can assure you for every JD Collins there is someone who thinks it's pointless, including many that work NCAA-M. I know you think everything done and emphasized at the higher levels is sacrosanct, but it's not. Sorry.

I have had timers say they couldn't hear the whistle over a crowd (and my whistle is not quiet) and saw the hand go up and stopped it once they saw that....but it was a little later.

All a matter of opinion. All sports have signals that officials do that some feel we should not do or are not necessary. It is all a matter of what you value. I just thinking the pointing is not an end all be all solution to something that in many cases cannot be heard. Just for the record, often in replay at the NCAA level, they use the official's signal as the gauge for when the whistle was blown, because you cannot often hear the actual whistle on the audio.

Peace

Pardon My French ...
 

Touché.

But have you ever told a timekeeper to watch for this in advance?

OK, just like I do not work for IAABO you do not work for the IHSA which is not an IAABO state or has no significance to what we might individually. Just pointing out again that in my world people do not care about those minor details and I do not go around making that the most important issue when I am working a camp or running a class. Bigger fish to fry if you ask me.

Peace

Very Relevant ...
 

Great point of information, very relevant to this topic, especially in college games.

A good reason for the stop the clock signal, especially in college games.

Priority ...
 

My post was actually agreeing with you, making the correct call and being in the right position to make a correct call are much more important than signals.

I believe that, on that, we can agree.

It's the degree of importance that we differ on.

You believe that proper signals are less important than what I believe, and that's alright, when in Rome, or Illinois, or Connecticut ...

We should run a test where we have all three officials put up their hands simultaneously and see how long it takes the timer to stop the clock!

Much like players wear warmups before the game, I think refs should as well. I also like the pro style where we wear the jackets going into and coming out of halftime as well. It just looks sharp.

That is actually not what I said. I said that it is less important to be perfect with the diagram or what the book describes in the picture. I believe that signals are important when they are giving proper information. Whether someone has their fingers in the perfect place. If you are giving the same information with a signal and no one is utterly confused, which I doubt anyone would be on a directional signal most of the time, then who cares if your fingers are not in the perfect place when giving the signal.

It has nothing to do with where I live either. No one makes that big of a deal about certain things and certainly, I have personally not be hurt by such things done as well.

Peace

Minor, Just A Deal, Not A Big Deal ,..
 

Yes it does have to do with where you officiate, but not for you personally because with your accomplished resume I doubt that anybody, officiating anywhere, Illinois, Connecticut, Rome, etc., would criticize you for something so minor (I'm still surprised that you were criticized for it in your state final, but there's at least one person in your area who thinks it's a "deal", not a big deal, but a "deal, not minor enough to ignore, but enough of a "deal" to make a constructive comment).

But if you were a young official, especially one who seems to have an aptitude for officiating, is off to a good start, and might have a bright future, here in my little corner of Connecticut, you would eventually bump into someone, one of our interpreters, a mentor, a mechanics training committee member, or a member of our evaluation committee, who would point out the minor issue, during either an official, or an unofficial, evaluation observation.

Probably not me, similar to you, I tend to concentrate other things. I would rarely, if at all, point out this minor flaw (I have my own signal problems).

Here in my little corner of Connecticut, this minor issue would probably be ignored if done by a struggling, deer in the headlights, young official, who barely knows if the basketball is stuffed, or inflated. There are bigger fish to fry, and more important things to critique if we are ever to turn this young person into a competent basketball official.

Just so you know, there are people that make issues out of those things here, but if the assignor you work for does not care (many don't) or the clinicians at the camp you attend do not care then it does not matter. All that matters is what the people you work for and if they give you games or do not give you games based off of their narrow position. Most assignors that I have worked with are going to tweak things you do, but they are not going to stop giving you games because something in the book is not "perfect."

For the record, the State Tournament Officials are giving games by people that never give games during the regular season. The State Administrator in that particular sport makes all the postseason assignments. One of his mandates is to use officials that have worked enough games, have certain ratings and have certain levels of experience. I do not think he is holding people back from an assignment just because they do not give a perfect signal. He would be in trouble if that is the only reason you do not work or do not work a certain level in the tournament. And to get to the State Finals takes a lot of steps. You do not just one year go from a Regional to a Super-Sectional for the most part. You have to climb that latter and then you get that shot at the State Finals at some point. Even to work a championship game usually does not come to someone working their first State Final assignment. This was my third State Final assignment and I did not work a title game in my first year and I did not even think I was going to work a title game in my third year because on my second trip I worked the 3A game. Trust me we have a meeting before the tournament starts where we discuss many things that we are expected to do. Mechanics is something heavily talked about but no one discusses hand position of a signal. Even if we give preliminary signals which are "required" by the state and there usually is a little bet we have with the head official about giving the proper sequence for a team control foul, which most of us never do properly. We bet that we give the head official a beer every time we do it wrong. I and another good friend just got him beers anyway because we could never do it "perfect."

I am sure that is not that much different in other places. It might be mentioned, but that is not going to stop a good official from getting certain places. If it does, shame on those people in power that have no perspective. The goal should be to put out the best officials you can at the time that are avaialble to you, not to nitpick the little things they do that do not affect their job performance.

Peace

Vince Lombardi ...
 

Agree. Perfect signals should be way, way, down on the priority list for tough assignments, if on the list at all.

“Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence.” (Vince Lombardi)

The restricted area is another change to high school basketball that is floating around. Minnesota and North Dakota have already adopted it on there own, so maybe this could be the year it goes national. I'd be on board with a restricted area coming to high school basketball, because it would prevent most charges under the basket (the only exceptions would be for primary defenders or players during rebounding activity), increase safety for the players, and make at least some block/charge calls easier. This would also lessen the learning curve of high school officials who want to go to the college level, because the restricted area won't be so alien to them once they have learned to call games using it.

God no. We have enough problems at the other levels with this and now you want to have officials that can hardly call a simple play like this and add something else.

Everything from other levels does not make it better. NF Rules are not for you to be prepared at the other levels. Football and Baseball officials do just fine with other rules when they move up the latter.

Peace

Different Strokes For Different Folks (Sly And The Family Stone, 1968) ...
 

Agree.

I see no reason why we need to get rid of charges under the basket. "Because NCAA and NBA have the RA" isn't good enough for me. Neither is "it'll prepare players and officials for the next level."

Yet again, another solution looking for a problem.

We finally agree on something!!! :)

Anything that involves adding/removing lines on the actual playing floor (not OOB) or anything else that costs schools money would not be implemented right away anyways.

Agree.

The quickest way to improve safety and reduce charges under the basket is to call the charges under the basket when they happen....all without a rule change. The reason it becomes a safety issue is some officials refuse to call it and that encourages the offense to fly into defenders because they know they can.

For players, it is a generally accepted requirement and they need to get warm for reasons that do not govern anyone else. Strangely, many do not wear them at halftime. I agree, that if we wear jackets before the game, then they should be worn coming out of halftime.

Or, just eliminate them.;)

Practical Reasons ...
 

Many of us wear our jackets pregame for up to fifteen minutes. We don't spend the entire ten minute halftime on the floor. Here in my little corner of Connecticut, we normally get back on the court with about a minute to go in the intermission, with, or without, the three minute warning. No need for a jacket to keep warm for a minute, or two.

I know guys that keep their jackets on for warmth in the locker room during almost the entire halftime intermission.

I wear mine pregame, not for the warmth, but because it looks good.

If I forget and leave the jacket at the table prior to the halftime intermission, I can still grab it after the final buzzer.

If I wear my jacket on the court through the entire halftime intermission, and I forget and leave the jacket at the table post game, I may have to make the long trek back to the school from home once I discover my jacket is missing. Hopefully it will still be there after a few days in the locker room.

We must agree to disagree here. The reason why charges occur under the basket is because defenders are able to legally set up there and get rewarded for it by earning the foul call. If a defender must set up at some distance from the basket, then that challenges him to contest the shot and get a rebound should the shot miss, not be a human shield to take away a score at the expense of potential serious injuries to either player. This would also allow the offensive player the time and distance to react before he leaves his feet on anew attempt to score at the basket.

On a fast break, a player who is running full steam might not be able to come to a stop quickly enough to avoid a player who shows up under the basket. Because the player had position, it was a charge, but this call benefited neither the defender nor the offensive player from a safety perspective. If a defender sets up farther away from the basket, the ball handler might notice him sooner and be able to avoid him more quickly.

A similar scenario might occur when a defender rotates over to help a player who is beaten inside the lane, and ends up directly in an offensive player's path. Because time and distance does not apply to the ballhandler, he is being penalized for being unable to stop his movement, not for executing any specific illegal actions. The restricted area rule is specifically written to disallow any illegal actions by the offensive player (unnatural use of the hand, arm, leg, or knee, a distinct pushoff, etc.), while not penalizing him for his momentum.

The restricted area was created in the NBA, NCAA, and FIBA to avoid these exact scenarios, as well as possible variations on these scenarios. Perhaps, if the NFHS is focused on risk minimization and improving player safety, it is time to add this change to NFHS as well. There is no reason from a basketball standpoint for a defender to risk injury by being in a position where it is difficult to contest a shot, rebound, or perform another basketball play. The offense also benefits, because it becomes easier for them to drive legally to the basket.

In my area, we wear our jackets for pregame, and re-appear on the floor with 3 minutes remaining in halftime at most. If it is a subvarsity game with a shortened halftime, we might only be there with 1 minute left in halftime. Because we are on the floor for a very short time in halftime, and our gyms are usually warm, we do not wear our jackets for halftime, although we retrieve our jackets before we retire to the locker room for halftime. I would not abolish the jacket, because every level of basketball uses pre-game jackets. If NBA officials wear jackets before their games, and it is the policy of my association(s) to wear jackets, I will be wearing mine before my scholastic games.

ilyazhito = Jay Bilas

And what if your association(s) got rid of jackets? Are you still going to wear one "because NBA officials do"?

These are the kinds of comments that cause people to bat an eye. Worry about doing NBA things when you make it to the NBA.

Fixed that for you.
Re:Jay Bilas, how is that relevant to the current discussion?

Call more PC fouls and amazingly players start pulling up more. So you can disagree if you like, but been doing this long enough or been calling enough PC fouls in games where somehow the players adjust. ;)

Peace

Player Control Fouls ...
 

Maybe a new NFHS Point of Emphasis? Maybe one with some teeth and a lot of publicity? And followup education by state, and local, associations?

But, would that really help? Maybe it's worth a try?

What officials wear or do not wear is not up the state or organization. We have states that have officials in all kinds of uniforms with different styles. Not sure why we think that what the NF says (And no state has to follow any mechanics or uniform requirements anyway) matters.

Peace

They could do this for sure but that would not change what I do and what many do that teach officiating. We call charges in my world. A POE is great, but it does not change what the rules have been saying for years.

Peace

Connecticut Problems ...
 

I can't speak regarding other areas, but we've been told by our local, and state, interpreters, and by IAABO International observers, that we have three main problems in regard to player control fouls being called here in Connecticut.

1) When a train wreck occurs in the paint, officials are more likely to call an incorrect blocking foul than a incorrect player control foul (or an incorrect team control foul in the case of a ball handler that passes).

2) When a train wreck occurs in the paint, officials are often likely to pass (no whistle) on close, really tough, calls rather than charge either a blocking foul, or a player control foul (or team control foul).

In other words, the default calls in Connecticut for close, really tough, train wrecks that occur in the paint seem to be blocking fouls, or nothing, and these default calls are often incorrect.

3) When a train wreck occurs in the paint, trail officials (two person Connecticut) seldom, if ever, make a call, most likely because they don't want to make a call outside their primary coverage area, or because they pass (no whistle) on close, really tough, calls rather than charge either a blocking foul or a player control foul (or team control foul).

In train wreak situations in the paint, we have been advised (over and over again) to observe the defense, that if a defensive player legally establishes, and legally maintains (including legal movements) a legal guarding position, to call a player control foul (or a team control foul), especially with contact on the defender's torso, and if otherwise, call the blocking foul.

We've also been advised (over and over again) that the trail should offer help in such train wreck situations in a normal "help manner", wait a split second for the lead to make a call, if the lead doesn't, put a whistle on the play using the guidelines in the paragraph above. Of course, use patience, good eye contact, and good communication, to avoid "blarges".

We've been advised (over and over again) that we don't have to be 100% sure to put a whistle on these dangerous plays. 51% should suffice for an "educated guess" whistle. No whistle means that we'll be wrong on train wrecks almost 100% of the time.

Put a whistle on such plays, use strong, confident looking signals, verbalize with a strong, confident voice, and be confident that your game management skills will keep the coaches under control.

Our local interpreter of many years ago use to say, "The best wrong call is a strong wrong call".

Myself, I call player control fouls whenever a defender in a legal guarding position is displaced by an offensive player. Unlike many officials, I do not default to "block" as my call when it is uncertain what happened. I tend to call PC fouls when the offensive player runs through a defensive player, even if the LGP status is undetermined (but not when a player is out of bounds). For me, being in the restricted area would be analogous to being out of bounds, since one cannot establish legal guarding position out of bounds, so that might be an analogy that could help officials if the restricted area were to be adopted.

However, my #1 desire for a rule change would be the shot clock. A restricted area would be more like #2 or #3, along with modifying the bonus rules to have the offended team awarded 2 free throws starting with the 5th foul in each quarter. 2 shots after 5 would be easier to administer than the current mishmash of 1-and-1 after 7 and 2 after 10 in a half.

The only thing the RA would lead to, in my area, is incorrect player control fouls and coaches going nuts. We have 20- through 40-year officials that haven't been to a camp or done any self-improvement in decades and aren't trained to officiate from the feet up. They're not going to change overnight and some never will change.

There is nothing the RA can solve at the high school level that can't be solved by correctly adjudicating block/charge plays under the basket as the rule is now, and defaulting to PC on 50/50 plays.

A solution whose only problem is "because college."

Also, NFHS POEs are a bunch of hooey.

How many times was hand checking a POE before they realized people still weren't calling it and a rule change was needed?

What about the "team control during a throw-in is only for foul purposes" mess that seems to be in there every year but people still can't get it right and they won't rewrite the rule?

And what about the one about PA announcers a few years ago? Who actually enforces that?

Missed Both Free Throws ...
 

A few years ago, had a high school announcer doing an over-excited, "cheerleader", play by play, as is often done in those summer pro-am games. Mentioned it to my partner, who was the referee, and a highly respected official, between the first and second periods. He seemed to think that we should just ignore it. I guess that he started listening to the announcer in the second period, because going into halftime he told the announcer to knock it off.

One memorable announcement that stuck in my mind, "How can she (visiting player) miss such an easy layup?".

Yada, Yada, Yada ...
 

https://tse2.explicit.bing.net/th?id...=0&w=238&h=175

While it may be true that most NFHS Points of Emphasis are no more than, "Yada. Yada. Yada", some, over the years, have been beneficial: Acknowledging And Granting Timeouts, Protecting The Free Thrower, Hand Checking, and Contact Above The Shoulders (maybe the best one).

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...1b5ee85c_m.jpg

I am of the opinion that many of these Points should be permanently etched as rules in the NFHS Rulebook, for all, especially new officials, to study.

Bottom line, call more PC fouls and amazingly players either pass the ball or pull up for a jumper. You do not need a rule or an area to prevent this from happening. Actually, you might cause more problems and inconsistency. Call more PC fouls and penalizing defenders that do nothing wrong. Problem solved.

Peace

The Consitution State ...
 

That's exactly what we need to do here in Connecticut.

Then why did Minnesota and North Dakota choose to implement this rule on their own? Did they consciously seek to copy college basketball, or did they have their own reasons for doing so? Maybe they thought that having people standing in close proximity to the basket and choosing to get themselves run over was such a safety problem that they needed to address it with a rules change, or they might have enough competent officials in those parts to not make a mess out of the restricted area.

I haven't seen many people post about changing the bonus rules. This is surprising, because it is at least the 2nd straight year that changes to the bonus rules appear in the questionnaire.

Why don't you go ask people that are involved with those two states? I have no idea why those states made that decision, nor do I care.

Conveniently, you don't mention the fact that 48 other states have not found it necessary to go against the NFHS on this (and 42 states on the shot clock matter). Why do those 2 (8 for shot clock) states have it right?

I don't really care about resetting fouls each quarter and getting rid of 1-and-1. However, everyone I know in NCAA-W loves it.

Burn ...
 

Do we have any Minnesota officials here on the Forum?

Unfortunately, none of the twelve guys that officiate basketball in Northern Dakota post regularly on the Forum. All twelve still have "Dial-Up" internet.

Have you ever considered that you are in the minority regarding this? Or maybe officials just don't care one way or the other.

Or have you ever considered there are a lot of veteran officials in this forum who have seen all kinds of rule change proposals that never panned out or came to fruition and simply just don't care what is implemented, just that everything is clearly spelled out by the time preseason clinics start.

Neither of those states is hotbeds for basketball. Honestly, do not care what those states do any more than I would care what other states do about some rule they want to try. But the NF makes rules that everyone is supposed to agree upon to some extent. And I work college basketball and I really do not care what college basketball does as it relates to high school basketball. I have worked multiple sports over the years and all those sports had different rules from the college ranks. Somehow we function. ;)

If they change it great, if they don't great. Not something that really is going to change the game that much IMO. Oh, college is reluctant to change this rule as well. So should we follow their lead?

Peace

Neither of those states is hotbeds for basketball. Honestly, do not care what those states do any more than I would care what other states do about some rule they want to try. But the NF makes rules that everyone is supposed to agree upon to some extent. And I work college basketball and I really do not care what college basketball does as it relates to high school basketball. I have worked multiple sports over the years and all those sports had different rules from the college ranks. Somehow we function. ;)

The State of Illinois has had again this year another player that was in the Final Four that had played high school ball from here. That was the case the last two years that the title game had a team with a player from the IHSA. If my state is not clamoring for all these college rules and the players are functioning at a higher level, I am not convinced we need to change rules just to prepare someone for college.

If they change it great, if they don't great. Not something that really is going to change the game that much IMO. Oh, college is reluctant to change this rule as well. So should we follow their lead?

Peace