Hypothetical: After horn has sounded during a try?

[Shooter14]

Was just thinking about this last night for some reason. What if:

Team A is in the bonus and down 2, A1 heaves a half court shot just before the buzzer. The buzzer sounds, the ball hits the rim, bounces up and B3 and A2 both are going for rebound (let's say the gym is so loud they can't hear the horn). B3 pushes A2 hard enough (trying to keep him from getting a last second tip-in) where you can't ignore it. It's after the buzzer sounds but during the try. What would you do?

I know the ball is still live during a try. But you could not shoot free throws for any other foul that occurred after the buzzer so I was just wondering. Would you just report the foul and game over still?

[Shooter14]

I guess where I'm tripped up on a situation like this is; You can't say "it's after the horn, ignore unless technical" because the ball is still live on the try. So just wondering if you would still go ahead and call the foul, but then say the game is still over because foul happened after the horn? Thanks in advance. Just thinking out loud. ha.

[Camron Rust]

Ruleswise, the horn is irrelevant. The ball becoming dead is what is important. While that is often coincident with the horn, it isn't always. In this case, that occurs once the try ends (made or missed). So, you hypothetical foul occurs during a live ball, regardless of the horn, and is thus called and the FTs should be shot if they could make a difference. Being before the ball is dead means any such foul would be a personal foul, perhaps intentional or flagrant, but still personal.

[Stat-Man]

I'd call the foul. If this was the buzzer for any period but the final one, we'd then shoot the bonus. For a buzzer at the end of the game, we'd shoot the bonus only if it would affect the game's outcome.

The closest play I can find in the 2018-2019 case book is 5.6.2 Situation G.

[billyu2]

Originally Posted by Shooter14

Was just thinking about this last night for some reason. What if:

Team A is in the bonus and down 2, A1 heaves a half court shot just before the buzzer. The buzzer sounds, the ball hits the rim, bounces up and B3 and A2 both are going for rebound (let's say the gym is so loud they can't hear the horn). B3 pushes A2 hard enough (trying to keep him from getting a last second tip-in) where you can't ignore it. It's after the buzzer sounds but during the try. What would you do?

I know the ball is still live during a try. But you could not shoot free throws for any other foul that occurred after the buzzer so I was just wondering. Would you just report the foul and game over still?

Key here is where is the ball when it bounces up. If it is definitely outside the cylinder it could be argued the ball is now dead. 4-41-4 (The try ends when it is certain the try is unsuccessful). And if that occurs first, the subsequent contact is ignored unless ruled intentional or flagrant. If any part of the ball is still within the cylinder above the rim it remains live and the personal foul could be called.

[BigCat]

As said earlier, the horn/"buzzer" isn't relevant here. If the try still had a chance to go in then the try is not over and you can penalize all fouls. (whether you should is another story and something id have to see...) But if you have a big two handed shove..then penalize. Free throws for that foul are part of that quarter since foul occurred before ball dead/qtr over. Once you are sure the try has no chance to go in, the try is over, ball is dead and quarter is over. Contact is ignored at this point unless flagrant or intentional.

Any foul called after ball had no chance to go in/quarter over then it must be intentional or flagrant foul. Regular contact is ignored...If you call intentional or flagrant foul and the score is tied then the OT will start with the FTs from this foul. Because the 4th qtr was over when you made the call. If the score is not tied, A is down by two, (we don't know if we are going to overtime... shoot FTS as part of 4th qtr.). If A makes both, OT. if he misses one, game over.

[ODog]

Originally Posted by Stat-Man

I'd call the foul. … For a buzzer at the end of the game, we'd shoot the bonus only if it would affect the game's outcome.

This is slightly off-topic to the OP, but I'll mention it anyway. We had an intentional foul as horn sounded to signal the end of a 4-point game. Foul was correctly whistled and signaled.

Since we weren't going to be shooting the FTs (would not affect the outcome), we didn't report the foul either and declared the game over. Had it been flagrant, different story of course. We would've reported, but still no FTs/game over.

[so cal lurker]

Originally Posted by BigCat

. If the score is not tied, A is down by two, (we don't know if we are going to overtime... shoot FTS as part of 4th qtr.). If A makes both, OT. if he misses one, game over.

And creates the odd scenario where it is better for the team that committed the foul if it is tied than if it has a one point lead. With a tie, they go to OT regardless of the FTs. With a one point lead, the FTs are shot, and the team can loose.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by so cal lurker

And creates the odd scenario where it is better for the team that committed the foul if it is tied than if it has a one point lead. With a tie, they go to OT regardless of the FTs. With a one point lead, the FTs are shot, and the team can loose.

That only applies if there's a T after the quarter has ended. In the OP, it was a personal foul before the quarter had ended -- so the FTs are always part of the 4th quarter and will determine OT.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

That only applies if there's a T after the quarter has ended. In the OP, it was a personal foul before the quarter had ended -- so the FTs are always part of the 4th quarter and will determine OT.

I had added that if fouls were intentional or flagrant after quarter ended, then they would be shot if score wasn’t tied as part of 4th qtr. I think his comment is related to that scenario...

[Shooter14]

Thanks for responses everyone.

[so cal lurker]

Originally Posted by BigCat

I had added that if fouls were intentional or flagrant after quarter ended, then they would be shot if score wasn’t tied as part of 4th qtr. I think his comment is related to that scenario...

correct.

[frezer11]

Originally Posted by ODog

This is slightly off-topic to the OP, but I'll mention it anyway. We had an intentional foul as horn sounded to signal the end of a 4-point game. Foul was correctly whistled and signaled.

Since we weren't going to be shooting the FTs (would not affect the outcome), we didn't report the foul either and declared the game over. Had it been flagrant, different story of course. We would've reported, but still no FTs/game over.

Technically, you should report anyways, and then game over, though I get it, I probably wouldn't either. I haven't had an intentional like this, but have had common fouls that we ignore. With an intentional, I don't think its a big deal. You mentioned flagrant, report for sure, but I would even report a Tech, as some schools have their whatever policy for players/coaches who get technical fouls.

[MattReferee]

Game over