Reset Ourselves

First off, I didn't mean to infuriate anyone but knew that it was possible.

Second, I want to see the level of violence off the court at basketball games go down.

Third, I want to see the level of officiating on the court go up because there are a few bad apples spoiling the bunch.

People agree and disagree, it happens. I'm sorry if I offended anyone but with these discussions, it opens up the eyes of several in here including myself.

I want to officiate as a side-job but sometimes when I move to an area, the season has already started and I can't take the necessary test so I start announcing. I'm not going into announcing abilities here, but I watch the officials, the positioning, the calls. I ask questions before, during and after games so I can be better prepared.

If I have offended anyone, again I'm sorry. I do sincerely appologize but the reason I came in here was to see what officials in other areas do and got the same responses I got from those in my "areas".

I would hope that those in here could accept my appology and accept my posts as another voice in the conversation of "how do we get better".

Thank you for your time,

Jarrod Wronski.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by sportsannouncing


If I have offended anyone, again I'm sorry. I do sincerely appologize but the reason I came in here was to see what officials in other areas do and got the same responses I got from those in my "areas".

I would hope that those in here could accept my appology and accept my posts as another voice in the conversation of "how do we get better".

[/B]

Jarrod,did it ever enter your mind that maybe the people responding who vehemently disagree with you are right and that you are wrong? Don't you think that maybe,just maybe,if you listened to some of the people on this forum, YOU might learn something? Believe me, there are quite a few very good,experienced,knowledgeable officials here.It is also quite apparent that you are certainly NOT an experienced or knowledgeable official,who has ever done any type of games at a higher level than rec leagues.So far,all you you have done is presented your own personal views,and expected them to be treated like gospel. Unfortunately,that isn't gonna happen- because your views are completely opposite to the basic training that we,as officials,have received.

May I suggest that you spend a little more time trying to understand why people are trying to tell you that you are so badly wrong,rather than just dismissing them.

[Hawks Coach]

Jarrod
I will take you on face value that you really want to learn about some of the issues you find yourself dealing with. My advice is that you spend some time in here reading the discussions of game management issues (defined as how a ref "manages" a game), how to determine when to call a foul, crowd/coach/timer/scorer/announcer issues that refs have to handle, etc. You have raised a lot of issues that many fans raise, and in a similar fashion as these fans. That is, you haven't read the rule book let alone delved into a discussion of how that thing is supposed to be interpreted.

This is not meant as a slam - just an observation from one who also joined this forum with a similarly uninformed position (although I owned and had read the rulebook, I didn't know how to piece it all together, and I never reffed - still haven't!). I now have an entirely different level of understanding after engaging in some of these discussions. I have a very good knowledge of the rules and a snese of how they should apropriately be enforced.

I will grant you that there are bad apples in refs, players, coaches, and yes, even announcers. Most do not realize they are bad apples. Many don't take a whole lot of time to reflect on how their behavior contributes the situations in which they find themselves (nor do they care to). Here is an opportunity for you to do so, and you will find that many on this forum use this place to think about what they do well, and where they can improve.

I find myself watching some games and wishing that the level of reffing was better to make a game beter. But even when I find myself thinking this, I don't really think badly of the refs because I know how hard the job is. It can be hard to find enough quality refs to staff every varsity and JV game in the area with officials that can handle the job really well. But those that are out there are generally trying, they just may not have all the skills we would prefer to see in every ref. But their presence is allowing the contest to occur, so give them some credit and enjoy the game for what it is.

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
You have raised a lot of issues that many fans raise, and in a similar fashion as these fans. That is, you haven't read the rule book let alone delved into a discussion of how that thing is supposed to be interpreted.

Hawks Coach,

You actually said something in your first paragraph which is the number one problem between officials and fans. This is a very, very important issue that I've never seen try to be resolved in basketball but an issue that worked in baseball. The solution is communication.

I have read the rule book. I read the rule book about once a month during basketball season and once before it starts. I do this to follow the play of the game but when I see the rule in black-and-white then ignored or called differently during a game, I see problems arise. The main one I see is travelling. Moving the upper body while the feet are planted is not travelling, but you'll see it called at least once a game. However, you'll see a player pick up the dribble at the foul line, take three steps and lay the ball up. Travelling, or so I thought until I watch a game.

I've consulted many an official on rules and interpretations. I ask how they can make a call from half-court on a player underneath the basket when four players obscure his point of view. I often hear, "if I don't see it, I can't call it" when in fact they do. This leads to problems that arise during games such as coaches chirping, fans and players getting upset, and possibly violence.

I know coaches will talk, complain and do what they can to inflence calls and some do. They do it very well even with the best of officials.

But where is the communication? Coach asks a referee a question and more often than not there isn't a response until it starts to get out of hand. If, and when, I blow a call, ask me. The first thing I do whenever I walk onto a playing field in official's garb is to let both teams know if they have a question they can ask. Just that offer in itself is enough to calm some of the roughest coaches.

Instead of keeping the intricacies of officiating among a small, select few who are always looking for new members, let's go out and do something about it. It starts from the top down. Make officials available to press on the professional level and make them accessible to fans after games to ask questions. I wish I had someone taping games I did. I know I've missed calls but wanted to know why. I asked fans and players, not fellow officials because it's easier for like people to say, "You did a good job" where a fan is more likely to be truthful and blunt.

I didn't become the level of Game Producer I did by asking others in my position. I asked fans, coaches, players and took a lot of criticism. Communication is the key, let's communicate. Let's take the solid line between fans and officials and blur it so each other understands. Major League Baseball is coming close by having an umpire available for questioning during games to clairfy calls. That's excellent, let's do that with basketball but make sure that what's being said can't be contradicted by the rule book.

[PAULK1]

I asked fans and players, not fellow officials because it's easier for like people to say, "You did a good job"

And this is why you will never get it.

if the baseball thing has proven anything it has proven that the officials got it right and the announcers who claim to be experts (usually ex players) always get it wrong
and they have multiple replays.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by sportsannouncing
[ Moving the upper body while the feet are planted is not travelling, but you'll see it called at least once a game.

Not in my games, and not in the vast majority of the games I observe.

[PAULK1]

one more thing about your sign off: The best official is the one that is least seen. Remember, officials are there as a support system of the game, not as THE controller

Acutally it goes like this:

Game management: facilitates the game
Coaches: prepare their teams and coach the game
Players: Play the game
announcers: inform and entertain at the game.
Officials: CONDUCT the game.

Out of these the only one you can critize and keep your job
is the officials so we know where your loyalty lies.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by sportsannouncing

I know I've missed calls but wanted to know why. I asked fans and players, not fellow officials because it's easier for like people to say, "You did a good job" where a fan is more likely to be truthful and blunt.

I didn't become the level of Game Producer I did by asking others in my position. I asked fans, coaches, players and took a lot of criticism.

[/B]

Oh my! Why did I waste my time trying to talk to this goober?

Go hit one of the fan boards,gameproducerboy. That's where you belong. Not here!

[ChuckElias]

Jarrod,

Here's my very honest and sincere opinion about your threads on this forum.

You need to decide -- right now -- if you are an official or an announcer. I don't mean that you have to give either one up. You can be an official, and also be a broadcaster occasionally, lending your officiating knowledge to the general public. Or you can be broadcaster, and ref on the weekends when you have nothing better to do.

If you choose the latter, that's fine and an admirable career choice, but then this isn't the place for you. Your tirades against officials, and your misplaced confidence in the fans to understand how a game should be officiated will get you nowhere as an official. And those attitudes will not be supported or tolerated very well among the regular posters on this forum.

If you choose the former -- that is, if you really want to be a good official -- then you need to shut up about what other officials do wrong and you need to stop soliciting the opinions of fans. If you truly want to improve as an official, criticizing other officials is one of the least effective ways to do so.

Instead, come here and ask questions about particular situations and plays and learn how they ought to be called. Ask questions, instead of making accusations. Don't be quite so ready to pat yourself on the back for how you call a game, b/c I guarantee that there's a TON of improvement that you can make. How can I say that? B/c I've been officiating 11 years -- the last 6 as an NCAA official -- and there a ton of improvement that I could make.

I honestly don't care which option you choose, but I don't see how you can continue along the path that you've started here.

[Dan_ref]

I have read the rule book. I read the rule book about once a month during basketball season and once before it starts.

You're a funny guy!

I wish I had someone taping games I did.

So do we! (Man you are hilareous! )

I know I've missed calls but wanted to know why. I asked fans and players, not fellow officials because it's easier for like people to say, "You did a good job" where a fan is more likely to be truthful and blunt.

Did I mention you are xxx nuts?

[Edited by mick on Oct 14th, 2003 at 08:41 PM]

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by sportsannouncing
I have read the rule book. I read the rule book about once a month during basketball season and once before it starts. I do this to follow the play of the game but when I see the rule in black-and-white then ignored or called differently during a game, I see problems arise.

You have to be kidding me. I officiate 3 sports (at one time 4) and I was and still am constantly in the rulebook. I do not just read it once and never pick it up again. No self respecting official does that I know.

Originally posted by sportsannouncing

I've consulted many an official on rules and interpretations. I ask how they can make a call from half-court on a player underneath the basket when four players obscure his point of view. I often hear, "if I don't see it, I can't call it" when in fact they do. This leads to problems that arise during games such as coaches chirping, fans and players getting upset, and possibly violence.

Do you read the Officiating Manual as well? Because if you did, you would not have even made this stupid statement.

Originally posted by sportsannouncing

I know coaches will talk, complain and do what they can to inflence calls and some do. They do it very well even with the best of officials.

I can see you never talked to any officials.

Originally posted by sportsannouncing

But where is the communication? Coach asks a referee a question and more often than not there isn't a response until it starts to get out of hand. If, and when, I blow a call, ask me. The first thing I do whenever I walk onto a playing field in official's garb is to let both teams know if they have a question they can ask. Just that offer in itself is enough to calm some of the roughest coaches.

You really are a xxx. Basketball is not baseball. Play cannot stop so that a coach can get a question. If you also read in that rulebook, it is against the rules to question a judgment call. If you read the rulebook more than a couple of times during the season, then you might just realize that. And it is not a practice of any good official that I know to even acknowledge the coaches unless there is an appropriate time.

Originally posted by sportsannouncing
Instead of keeping the intricacies of officiating among a small, select few who are always looking for new members, let's go out and do something about it. It starts from the top down. Make officials available to press on the professional level and make them accessible to fans after games to ask questions. I wish I had someone taping games I did. I know I've missed calls but wanted to know why. I asked fans and players, not fellow officials because it's easier for like people to say, "You did a good job" where a fan is more likely to be truthful and blunt.

Dude, you ask the fans? What tha......? I am convinced now, this is a joke. You just came here to get everyone worked up and later tell us you were joking. I guess the next time I see an uneducated person, I will make sure I get them to tell me what being a good doctor is all about.

Originally posted by sportsannouncing

I didn't become the level of Game Producer I did by asking others in my position. I asked fans, coaches, players and took a lot of criticism. Communication is the key, let's communicate. Let's take the solid line between fans and officials and blur it so each other understands. Major League Baseball is coming close by having an umpire available for questioning during games to clairfy calls. That's excellent, let's do that with basketball but make sure that what's being said can't be contradicted by the rule book.

You have not read the part of the rulebook that talks about the "spirit of the rules." Rules are not just black and white. The fact that you think they are shows how much you really need to learn about the game of basketball or any game for that matter. It is not our job to educate the public. But it is your job to educate the public in your position, but you are too stupid to do so by asking even more uneducated folks (fans and players) what the rules are. I do not know about you, but I and many here have to take a rules test every season (sometimes two tests). It forces us to learn the language and understand what our job is. I will say this, we all might not agree on everything here, but your knowledge of the game is really lacking compared to most here. You seem to have no grasp of what happens in a game. Because if you try to compare baseball to basketball, that alone shows how silly you are. I have been officiating/umpiring both sports for almost 10 years and nothing about basketball is the same as baseball. But that is why you are an announcer, not a "real" official. Keep doing those rec. games, someone has to do them.

Peace

[Edited by mick on Oct 14th, 2003 at 10:02 PM]

[Indy_Ref]

...the number one problem between officials and fans. This is a very, very important issue that I've never seen try to be resolved in basketball... The solution is communication.

It is NOT a requirement for officials' to communicate with fans other than through our mechanics. Anything more, you're venturing into the abyss!

...but an issue that worked in baseball.

That IS funny. I've watched some botched calls in the baseball playoffs...and they took all the time in the world. (See the initial call on the Todd Walker homer. See the Miguel Tejada "obstruction")

The main one I see is travelling.

Went to a D-I camp this summer and was told that travelling can be a very GRAY area...not black & white.

I've consulted many an official on rules and interpretations.

Try us first, next time!

I ask how they can make a call from half-court on a player underneath the basket when four players obscure his point of view.

I'd venture to say MOST officials on this forum do NOT make that call!

...such as coaches chirping, fans and players getting upset...

Part of the game!

...violence.

Not part of the game but sometimes, cannot be avoided no matter what an official does. I used to think otherwise, but I've seen instances where I really didn't know what else an official could have done to prevent it.

I know coaches will talk, complain and do what they can to inflence calls and some do. They do it very well even with the best of officials.

Part of gamesmanship...it can happen to anyone. No official is exempt.

Coach asks a referee a question and more often than not there isn't a response until it starts to get out of hand.

As already stated, it ISN'T required. However, a good official will be sure to try to accommodate any professional coach..."professional" being the operative word!

Instead of keeping the intricacies of officiating among a small, select few...

Last I looked, this website is open to everyone!

Make officials available to press on the professional level and make them accessible to fans after games to ask questions.

Quite possibly the most ludicrous point in the whole post!

I know I've missed calls but wanted to know why.

Most good officials already know why they missed a call! It's all about the angle & what you can see...not about what you guessed or thought happened.

I asked fans...

I'm sorry to hear that! I guess we didn't realize that they are the experts!! They know all the rules, they know all the coverages, don't they?! All of us will be sure to remember that!

...and players...

Yes, nothing wrong with that. I do that myself. Plus, I also let a player know when I missed a call on a play that affected him/her.

...not fellow officials because it's easier for like people to say, "You did a good job" where a fan is more likely to be truthful and blunt.

Interesting...maybe the officials in your area see no hope and don't want to waste their time. If you really wanted to hear feedback, try, "Tell me one thing I did right and one thing I did wrong." For most people, I think evaluations are easier to give if it's not all negative...and if it's not too long of an explanation. And by all means, go to a D-I camp...they'll let know what they think.

I didn't become the level of Game Producer I did by asking others in my position. I asked fans, coaches, players...

Isn't that like asking the virgins how to have sex??