Two wierd plays

[Nevadaref]

Just worked a high boys tourney this past weekend and had two strange plays in the 12th grade 7th place game. The games were officiated two-man.
1. I am administering a throw-in to a player from White, who is leading 55-54 with 2 minutes to play in the 4th, in their frontcourt on the endline at the intersection of the endline and the three-point line, when a teammate of the thrower runs OOB between the opposite three-point line and lane line, and then continues across the width of the court while OOB only to stop two steps away from the thrower. I'm thinking, "What the ?@#&$ is he doing?" The defender did not follow him OOB.

2. With white leading 59-57 with 17 seconds to play, we are returning from a TO and white will inbound on their endline following a goal by Black. The coach of White tells my partner that they are going to make an OOB pass on the throw-in and he relays this message to me since I am again administering the throw-in. I merely told my partner, "Fine with me."
So after giving the ball to W1 I begin my count and watch as he throws the OOB pass to W2 who is stepping OOB in the other corner. The defender is tailing him quite closely and he misses the pass, which continues on and bounces off the face of the front row of the bleachers and rolls back toward the intended receiver, remaining behind the plane of the endline the entire time. After waiting for a second W2 runs over and picks up the ball and looks to make a pass onto the court.

I have never seen nor talked about the first situation before, but we have discussed the second play on this board and I made up my mind then on how to call it. I'll post what I did in each situation after giving others a chance to say how they would have handled these plays.

[Edited by Nevadaref on Oct 9th, 2003 at 01:47 AM]

[ChuckElias]

Sitch 1: If you've already given the ball to the inbounder, then it's a violation on his teammate to have any part of his body on the OOB side of the boundary.

Sitch 2: Legal. The ball never touched inbounds, and there is no requirement for the pass to go "directly" to the teammate, since it's not technically a throw-in pass. No call, let the teammate throw the inbound pass.

[TriggerMN]

Chuck, could you append rule references or case book plays I could review on these rulings? Thanks in advance.

[Ref in PA]

Originally posted by TriggerMN
Chuck, could you append rule references or case book plays I could review on these rulings? Thanks in advance.

For Chuck's Sitch 1: 9-2-12

For Chuck's Sitch 2: I think it is the absense of a rule preventing the play that makes it legal. The pass was clearly to a teammate behind the inbounds line - it was just missed. The ball continued to stay behind the endline and was retrieved and then inbounded from a proper point. The count should have continued until the ball was inbounded.

[rainmaker]

Sitch 1: If the ref thinks W2 is using the space out of bounds to get around a screen, or to get free for some reason, it's actually a Technical, I think, not a violation. most people don't know this, though, so I would just stop the play and warn them unless you have reason to suppose they are deliberately cheating.

Sitch 2: I'm with Chuck, legal.

[whistleone]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
The defender is tailing him quite closely and he misses the pass, which continues on and bounces off the face of the front row of the bleachers and rolls back toward the intended receiver, remaining behind the plane of the endline the entire time. After waiting for a second W2 runs over and picks up the ball and looks to make a pass onto the court.

Can this still be considered legal even though it touches something out of bounds (bleachers)?

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by whistleone
Can this still be considered legal even though it touches something out of bounds (bleachers)?

Why not? If the inbounder just stands there and bounces the ball, isn't the ball touching somthing OOB (the floor)? The bleachers aren't extra OOB. Unless they're double secret OOB, and I didn't get the memo. . .

[northindyref]

Since you are returning from a time out, was the throw-in after a scored basket of from a designated spot after a violation. After a scored basket, the player may still move along the endline or throw the ball to another player along the endline. But, if it is a designated spot to throw the ball in, this now becomes a violation as the pass must go directly inbounds.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Why not? If the inbounder just stands there and bounces the ball, isn't the ball touching somthing OOB (the floor)? The bleachers aren't extra OOB. Unless they're double secret OOB, and I didn't get the memo. . .

However, if the ball rolls under the bleacher, or a kind fan picks up the ball and tosses it to A1.....?

[ChuckElias]

North Indy, if you look at the play again, I think you'll get the answer to your question. . .

Originally posted by Nevadaref
2. With white leading 59-57 with 17 seconds to play, we are returning from a TO and white will inbound on their endline following a goal by Black.

Good point to bring up, tho.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by rainmaker
Sitch 1: If the ref thinks W2 is using the space out of bounds to get around a screen, or to get free for some reason, it's actually a Technical, I think, not a violation. most people don't know this, though, so I would just stop the play and warn them unless you have reason to suppose they are deliberately cheating.

Not sure I get your reasoning. 2 players OOB anywhere is a clear throw in violation from the spot, a second player oob NOT behind the endline is a violation after a made/awarded basket. Why a T? Why a warning?

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
Why a T? Why a warning?

sounds like she was thinking of leaving the court for an unauthorized reason. I would grab the violation, myself. But I can see the reasoning, since it sounds like in the original play the second player OOB was trying to lure the defender OOB to get him/her into trouble.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

However, if the ball rolls under the bleacher, or a kind fan picks up the ball and tosses it to A1.....?

Great question. I'll see if I can find something relevant, but just off the cuff, I would treat it as a fumble and re-administer the throw-in. If there are fans behind the inbounder and s/he fumbles the ball, which is then touched by a fan, I don't think we'd penalize that. So I think I'd treat this the same way.

Tag, Dan. You're it.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Great question. I'll see if I can find something relevant, but just off the cuff, I would treat it as a fumble and re-administer the throw-in. If there are fans behind the inbounder and s/he fumbles the ball, which is then touched by a fan, I don't think we'd penalize that. So I think I'd treat this the same way.

Tag, Dan. You're it.

I betcha won't find one but I agree with you. This is one play I hope never happens to me. From the endline A1 tosses the ball over A2's head & the ball ends up under the bleachers or A2's little brother runs & gets the ball & tosses it back. Near end of close game. I blow the whistle & announce a do-over. I imagine coach B's gonna need some serious hand-holding after that

[stan-MI]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
I would treat it as a fumble and re-administer the throw-in

If this was a planned play, where A1 throws an OOB pass to A2 with the intent that A2 catch it and inbound the ball, I wouldn't readminister. I'd just continue my 5-second count. It's not a fumble of the hand off or bounce pass from an official. It's a poor play, perhaps caused by the defensive pressure, and the offense should not get a second chance. A1 created the predicament by making a wild pass. Don't bail him out.