Reaching out of your area
Last night I am C, not much going on in my PCA, last second shot at the end of the 3rd quarter, 3 point shot goes up just below the FT line extended, which just happened to be directly across the court from me and my line of sight. (IE I have a great angle). I take a glance at it. I see the defender CLEARLY foul the shooter across the arm. I KNOW this is a foul, but I also know this is not my call. I wait, expecting a whistle from the trail, shooter comes all the way down, no whistle from Trail... I blow. Neither coach says a word, not even a groan from the crowd. Everyone saw this foul. Coach of the shooter actually commented that this was a great call (because he knew it wasn't my call to make but I did anyway).
Needless to say my partner wasn't happy. When is it appropriate to reach out of your area? Does it have to be a flagrant or technical foul situation? Am I the worst partner ever? I've always read on here that you don't come that far out of your PCA unless it is a "crew saver". I felt like this fit the bill. |
You can reach out of your area if you are right and it is rare. But you better be right.
What did your partner say? Did he think it was clearly a foul? Did he think it was marginal or not a foul at all? Also, that is a rather long way to get a foul from the C. So it has to be very accurate or in transition on some level. I am not sure what you described either was a crew saving call. Peace |
Be Late, Be Right, Be Needed ...
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
IMO Primary coverage area does not equal exclusive coverage area. I have no problem if you come and get it out of my area bc I know you're not doing that unless you are 100% certain. Isn't getting it right more important that someone only fishing in their own pond? It is to me.
|
Quote:
Peace |
Quote:
It was absolutely a long way to go, and that is how sure I am that it was a foul. In hindsight I wouldn't call it, just because I've been told that it would be more appropriate to let him deal with the consequences of missing a call if he messed it up. And btw this ended up being a 1 possession game at the end. |
I can get behind that. I'd be more interested in what the video showed. If it showed I was right, I would call that a crew saver if it awards a team at (a possible) 3 points. If not, I'm fishing outside of my pond. Either way, I'm going to be 100% on one that I'm going across the court for. There won't be any doubt in my mind.
|
To some extent, this depends on who your partners are (familiar or never worked together before?) and what you pre-game. I only work 2-ref, and my pre-game always includes this: "I'm not territorial, so if you clearly see a foul in my primary, call it. Let's get it right."
I also disagree with this: " I've been told that it would be more appropriate to let him deal with the consequences of missing a call if he messed it up." The officials are a team, and the team bears the responsibility to get foul calls right. Don't guess, but if 100% sure? If I were your partner, I'd rather you make that call. Maybe I was straight-lined; maybe I was looking up top and could not see lower body contact. IMO/YMMV. |
You Fish On Your Side ...
Quote:
Quote:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._long_name.jpg |
Quote:
I am also going to say it this way. The higher you go up, the more you will have to realize they will not treat you as a team if the fall out happens. There was a play this past postseason where we had a major screw up in a game that took a team to the State Finals were an official "thought" he saw something and made a call on whether a shot was a 2 or a 3 at a very critical point of the game. He was the C and came across the lane to call a 3 point shot a 2. Then on video, it showed this official who as the C that was coming out of his primary was totally wrong and saw something that was clearly not there (this was a college floor with two 3 point lines). There was one official on the crew that had no idea what happened because he was the lead. He would not have been looking there for a foot on the line near the top of the key. The lead in this play could not give any information and no one expected him to. The talk was about the official the two officials involved, the one that made the call to change the 3 to a 2 and the official that had the primary. Now that play was certainly a play they could come together on because it was only an issue of points. But in a foul situation, you do not have a lot of options to take it back if your partner totally disagrees with you that is in his primary. This was not a rules situation either where we can make sure we are applying the rule properly. This is a foul that you cannot just take back. So you better be right and if you do not "beat the tape" that might be the reason you assignments or further opportunities might be evaluated. So yes we are a team, but when they fire one of you or suspend one of you, they are not going to do that as a team. I can tell you as a college official, I cannot go by "we are a team" mantra and save me from judgment mistakes I make. Just saying, be careful. Was it an ant or an elephant? And we cannot always use the croud reaction as a guage for a good call or not. We can be totally right and still they think we got it wrong. Peace |
Just What Makes That Little Old Ant, Think He’ll Move That Rubber Tree Plant ...
(Frank Sinatra, 1959)
Quote:
|
Quote:
Peace |
If I'm the T, and I missed it, I would want you to come get it. Some won't. Got to know your partners. For me, it's not about who's right, it's about what's right. Just be sure you're right when you go that far!
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
At the college level, if you are a new or journeyman official you CANNOT do this in front of a veteran. You're going to hear about it, and not in a good way.
There are a lot of dynamics and variables in play as to when it is or isn't appropriate to do this. As described in this situation, I don't think I'm coming that far to get it unless it is the last minute of a close game, I have no doubt it was a foul, and I have the status on that crew and with my supervisor to make that kind of call. |
Quote:
Man, there are some incredibly big egos the higher up you go. Isn't the goal to get the calls right? If somebody doesn't see something and you do, I have no problem with somebody reaching AS LONG AS there is nothing going on in your PCA and you are right. I couldn't care less about hearing about it not in a good way. Yelling loudly, or defending your bad call or lack of a call does not make you right or a better official. If your ego is that fragile, then I don't know what to say. (I know the OP is not talking about their self and this isn't directed at them) I think we all prefer our partners do their jobs and stay in their PCA, but we all know there are times to reach out of your PCA. Sometimes the sea just parts and you can see what your partner cannot. If the game is on the line and you know you are right, get the call and make sure the game is not determined by a missed/wrong call. Just my opinion. |
Quote:
An appropriate high-certainty foul to reach for would involve a player throwing an elbow or someone getting pushed or thrown to the ground-violent contact that, if unpenalized, will lead to big problems in your game. A jump shooter getting hit on the arm and going down in the third quarter is not going to lead to a fight if uncalled. You might have an unhappy coach, but let the partner who was right on top of the play deal with that fallout. "Getting the call right" is all well and good, but to move up you have to learn what to let your partners, especially veterans, live and die with. You're not going to get a call from the assigner for not coming all the way across the court to bail out your partner. You will get a call from the assigner if you reach that far to get a foul that wasn't there, or you reach that far to get something in front of a veteran that isn't a game-saver. And for what it's worth, I've gotten more flack for reaching on fouls in high school games than in my college days. Because so many high school guys don't understand the concept of angles and cadence whistles. In my experience high school-only guys are more territorial than college officials. |
Quote:
There are all kinds of things I can get away with at the HS level that would get me fired from a college conference. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
I think it's sad that guys have to be afraid of stepping on egos/toes when a respected official screws something up. Everybody screws up and it's ok to admit when you do. If a member of your crew can get it right, I don't see the big deal. I've seen plenty of college guys working games that mess things up. Things all of us have messed up in our careers. They are not gods and are not perfect. They have just played the "game" long enough. |
Quote:
I believe the point of this topic was an obvious missed call. I don't think any of us will reach out of our PCA very often and try hard as hell not to. I think we all agree that you need to stay in your PCA 99.9% of the time. I don't mind the .1% where it happens. Sounds like some guys at some levels have a hard time with it. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
Sorry but in this example, the official called something way out of his area and his partner that was on top of the player felt the call was not warranted. Guess what that official might say if asked about that play to a supervisor if asked? He might not directly throw his partner under the bus, but he might just stay what he saw. That is how you get into trouble. And a good supervisor will not only ask, but see the video if that is brought to their attention. Guess who also asks around about particular officials? You guessed it, fellow officials get asked often about what they think of partners or might be a clinician at a camp and also give reasons for why this person should be hired or moved up. Things like this just at camp might tell me you are not ready to work a certain level. And I do not assign anything, but my opinion is often requested by those that do. Peace |
It is one thing to help in your secondary area when you believe that your partner got blocked out or couldn’t see a clear infraction due to the angles of the players, but what one should avoid is over-riding another official’s judgment on a play which is observed. To be more specific, I am talking about a play in which there is contact which two officials observe. If the officials have different thresholds for what constitutes a foul, one may determine that no foul occurred and no whistle is the correct decision while the other will blow and make a call also believing that he is correct. This type of play is why I cannot agree with the “get it right” camp. These situations should be left to the primary official.
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
Peace |
If you are going to call into my my area there had better be some conditions:
1) THere better be a lot going on and you legitimately believe I was screened out or missed something. 2) It had better not be on the player/players I am very clearly watching and making decisions about. 3) You had better be getting something dirty/excessive if its a foul anything marginal is not worth you coming into my area on stuff we can no call. If you don' t have 2 of those conditions met we are probably going to talk about why you assumed my judgement wasn't as valid as yours. |
Quote:
For me it's the 0.1% of the time that this can happen. I believe in crew savers from time to time. We all get blocked out from time to time or just don't see something for whatever reason. If somebody is 100% right and makes a call in my area, I'm fine with it. I will do the same and hope they are fine with it as I know I only did it because I am 100% right. Any doubt in my mind and I'm not doing it. |
Quote:
|
I lurk around here and was reading this thread yesterday; then in the evening happened to be at this game: https://www.byutv.org/player/0e143c0...d-vs-byu-11019
There's an on-point play at the 35:10 or so mark in the video (8:20 or so left in the game). (Sorry no idea how to embed a with time link to that site). |
Good example of C coming from a long way with a late whistle, although he sold it strongly. Commentators discuss the fact that official farthest away made the call.
|
I do not see the foul here. I think he called it before the shot, but I did not even see that as a foul.
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/lZTmyVpsMmw" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe> Peace |
Tough to see, but it is there....knee to knee as the shooter was going up, putting the shooter off balance for the shot. From most of the angles, you just can't see it so it would be easy to miss.
It was right in line with where the C should be looking. Maybe not enough to go get but I'd argue that it had a clear impact on the shot. |
I believe that is a former NBA official making that call. Defender walks into the shooter's right elbow as he is elevating. Center is the only official with an open look to that contact. I work for an NBA official, this is a play he would expect one of his vets to come get, especially when a road team is getting waxed by 18 points. He doesn't have that same expectation for a less-seasoned official.
|
Quote:
Another time to announcer was incorrect. |
Quote:
Sometimes an official farthest from the play has the best look. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
2. Petard. Hoist. 3. "Farthest" is correct. The announcer said, "Furthest." 4. Back to the original post (in the original thread, if this isn't it). Everyone agrees that sometimes an official should call out of his PCA. And, everyone agrees that sometimes an official should not call out of his PCA. Deciding when to do so is part of the art of officiating. And, the "when" varies by level, experience, and even play-to-play. |
Raymond and Camron, I just don't see it. look at the replays, third one...They call me cyclops for a reason but I just don't have anything. To the general public...Do NOT come across the floor for this...
|
Quote:
Maybe not enough to go get, but it wasn't wrong. |
Quote:
There was more contact on a play that I did not call a foul on this week in a college game and the angle was horrible. I might post the video and I still feel that is not a foul. This is with multiple angles and less contested. Peace |
Quote:
Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk |
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
if players and coaches knew that some officials cared about their egos more than getting it right, they'd puke. I can understand this a little bit, but if you are 100% sure and suspect the others have been straight-lined at a minimum, go get it. If it clearly created an advantage, go get it. It's more important to be principled in calling the game than looking out for your own politics.
|
Quote:
Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk |
Quote:
|
Quote:
You can screw up a game berry easily that way.. |
Quote:
|
To me personally, time and score is irrelevant when making calls. The rules and casebook (approved rulings) do not mention that one should change calls based on time and score, so doing that would not be game management, but game manipulation. It is not my business whether the game is competitive or a laugher, my only issue is to make sure that players play legally and safely.
|
Fine And Dandy ...
Quote:
For example, slight touch contact that doesn't put a player at a disadvantage in the first thirty minutes and is ignored as incidental becomes a method for one team to stop the clock and slow the game down in the last two minutes. Don't call this same contact a foul in the last two minutes and you'll have the players killing each other to get a call, which could escalate into a fight. C'mon ilyazhito. You're better than this. You're off your game. What's wrong with you today? Get up on the wrong side of the bed? |
Quote:
Experience will explain this more and better than I can.. |
Quote:
|
4% Neanderthal DNA ...
Quote:
Watch out. I've got a club and I know how to use it. |
Quote:
I'm also a little bit skeptical about the idea that down 18 early in the game in college is getting creamed. In this particular game, that 18 point lead turned into a 3 point lead before halftime. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
Team A is down by 2 in the last 10 seconds, A1 drives to the basket and incurs contact that has both been passed on and called on earlier plays in the game. What are you going to decide if A1 misses the shot? What are you going to decide if A1 makes the shot? As far as the play being discussed here. That team is down by 18 points, on the road. You can't miss fouls committed against that team. That was a foul that was missed by the Lead and Trail b/c there were stacked to the contact. Your "strictly by the book" mindset will work for you at the HS school level. If you ever start working NCAA basketball (I'll speak for this region of the country), you'll see that mindset starting to shift. NCAA supervisors want officials who have common sense and make good decisions. |
Work On The Upper Floors ...
Quote:
Yes, know the rules and interpretations, but that's just the foundation, a solid foundation, but it's just the foundation. https://s3.amazonaws.com/lowres.jant...501635_low.jpg |
Quote:
Peace |
Quote:
The one thing I'll say is this -- plays are clipped and sent in for all sports without context, so you can't just make stuff up, be incorrect, and use the "but it was a 40 point game" thing. But Raymond is right -- a true 50/50 call -- and I know how I'm calling it. Example -- ball shoots out of bounds with 5 minutes left in a 30 point game. I have no idea who it went off of, but it was close either way. It's going to the losing team without a second thought. I suppose you'd get help and then, failing to get help, would go to the arrow? |
Quote:
I have been in this situation, and sometimes forgetting about the time/score, I ask for help. And then my partner lackadaisically points the direction of the winning team and we're stuck, when the best option was just to give it to the losing team from the get-go. I've also been in situations where a partner awards the ball to the losing team on a non-obvious OOB decision, and the other partner comes racing in to give help and the ball gets given to the winning team. :o |
I'm completely opposed to passing on 100% obvious fouls and violations based on time/score, or giving the ball to the losing team when everyone in the gym knows the ball went OOB off them. That opens the door for the winning coach to complain about how we "stopped officiating" and send in plays, and that's a call I never want to get from an assigner.
But if it's truly a play that could go either way when judged in real time, give the benefit of the doubt to the team getting slaughtered. And by all means don't miss anything obvious against the winning team. If that means grabbing something marginal that will keep the losing coach at bay, so be it. If the winning coach wants to complain, let him do so and any assigner worth his salt will ignore him. |
I totally agree with 50/50 calls benefitting the team getting killed. But when I started, I would have veteran partners give the ball to that team to start the 4th Q, even though the arrow favored the winning team. Being a rookie I didn't say anything. Now I do. Typically it's Rec or travel, but it did also occur in a couple of HS JV games.
|
Quote:
In NCAA, no block charge play is 50/50, because of the restricted area arc, so my determination would be (in this order) in or out (of the arc), and then was the defender in a legal guarding position facing his opponent. If in [and no unnatural body positions/motion by the offensive player], then there is only one possible call (block). If out, then I would proceed to determine was the defender legal. Under NFHS rules, I'll determine if the defender was legal, and go with the result of that determination. I would make the exact same call in a 1-score game in the VHSL (MPSSAA or DCSAA) championship as I would in a 30-point blowout. For the drive to the basket, I would have a foul in both scenarios if the contact was illegal, and no call if the contact was marginal or incidental. It's tough to explain this without video, though. |
Quote:
You saying there’s no 50/50 calls shows your lack of experience..You won’t move up nor should you with this view. Lot of things are black and white.Those are the easy things. Can you SEE and referee the GRAY areas... |
Quote:
You think in real time at game speed all calls are cut and dry? You think officials never have to make an educated guess, even the best officials in the world? If you ever come to a camp run by Tony Brothers and Leroy Richardson, I would love to hear the conversations you have with them. Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk |
Don't you get nuance? In NCAA, restricted area B/C plays are cut and dry, because there is a basic sequence of decisions, but I did not say that there are no non-restricted area plays. I said "If out (of the restricted area), I would proceed to determine whether the defender was legal." This means that B/C plays can occur outside the restricted area as well. I would use the criteria of legal guarding position to determine whether the contact is a block or charge. If I know what to look for (did defender beat offensive player to the spot before offensive player went airborne?), B/C plays are relatively easy.
It's plays where there is possible traveling (or another violation) before the foul that can get difficult. As L, I wI'll most likely be looking at the defender from the feet up to determine LGP, so it would fall to T and/or C to pick up travels, depending on angles. This would be a case where reaching would be completely acceptable, because I might not have a proper angle to rule on both fouls and traveling from my primary area. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
Quote:
How many NCAA games have you worked that you are able to tell us what does or doesn't occur in an NCAA game? |
Quote:
|
Raymond, re-read post #70. I may not always know what is happening, but I can pickup my secondary defenders and identify their actions and legal/illegal position. I make B/C decisions based on their location (irrelevant for NFHS) and legality. This is why block/charge plays are simple for me (not necessarily easy, because there are moving bodies at high speeds).
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
Stay in your lane bro! (not directed at you Raymond, just quoting my new favorite commercial and telling ilyazhito to listen more, talk less) |
I am merely a HS official. I have a certain mentality when I work a game.
I own my primary and realize I can't go reaching out of it in an effort to save the world. If I do that, I might get a call right, but I'm losing ownership of my primary. And I'm just as likely to get a call wrong. Frankly, this is easiest to do when I don't know the other officials well. We work a lot of games in crews and when I work with my regular guys, we are really comfortable grabbing something we think a partner missed and the lines on the floor get, unfortunately, blurred. But when I'm with relative strangers, I think to myself -- I want them to think of me as a good partner. And I only reach when I know I have to and have an open look at what I'm reaching for. Stay in my damned primary. There are times when all eyes have to be on the ball. Last possession, player takes it to the rack or elevates for a winning jump shot. There's nothing else that matters there. If there's contact from the backside or something the primary official CAN'T see, then we have to come and get it. Otherwise? It's just one call in a 36 minute game and I'm not injecting a whole bunch of nonsense into a game just so we MAYBE get the call right on the floor. A lot of these "reaching" scenarios involve one official (not primary) substituting his judgment for another's (primary). That's just wrong, completely wrong. |
Bottom line, I want to beat the tape. That is it. I do not care about much else. And unless you are working a TV game with multiple angles, it is harder to beat the tape. I called a play kind of out of my area on Saturday, it was the only call out of my area they entire game. It did not save the game. It just was an open look and gave my partners every opportunity to see it. But I was not doing that again. The call did not save the world or the game. And if I passed on the play, no one would have said anything but maybe the shooter (he is on the video saying he got hit on the arm).
I just think there are plays we are going to miss and I am not putting my bread and butter on calls outside of my primary when I respect the partners I am working with. Peace |
Quote:
Lesson learned. At that level, it better be a gigantic elephant or you simply don't hit it. Same thing in a HS game. It had better show up on the crappy tape or I'm not coming all the way across the court while singing the Mighty Mouse theme. |
Quote:
Peace |
Mighty Mouse Is On The Way ...
Quote:
https://youtu.be/X78i13q-atk |
Nothing ticks me off more then my partner calling a foul or violation in my area. In high school games if you pull this crap the first time you get a loook, the second you a head shake and the third we are going to have a conversation you will not like at halftime or after the game. I still do youth games and that is a train wreck of officials who call outside their area. I had a partner in lead position call travel at half court one time, I reversed the call and told him to stay the F out of my area before I get mad. I don’t call other areas for 2 reasons, it’s your job and your area and second it looks bad when
|
What does "a conversation you will not like" look like?
Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk |
Quote:
The thought has me shaking in my boots. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro |
"the second you [get] a head shake....it looks bad when...."
Sounds inconsistent, no? It look bad when one official shakes his/her head at a partner's call. |
Quote:
|
Everybody In The Gym ...
Quote:
Never missed one call in your primary (maybe an illegal screen) because there was a lot of physical action going on in another part of your primary? Never missed a slight touch before a pass or shot heads out of bounds on your line? And these happen when absolutely everybody in the gym except you sees the foul, or violation? And if these happen, you don't ever accept, or even want, unsolicited help? Never? Ever? Not even once a season? |
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
The Third Team?
Randa16, even assuming your territoriality is appropriate, your actions (head shaking, reversing a partner's call) can only make the situation worse. Save your anger for the locker room at half-time or post-game, away from the public eye.
|
I have put in years at being a good ref. Do I miss calls? Yes a few a year but the last thing I need is some old guy trying to be super ref and not watch his area. The call I reversed was because he was way out of position, I was standing right there, it was a bad call and he is not going to make me look stupid. You all can not like it all you want but you know the kind of ref I am talking about.
|
Quote:
I'm still trying to envision this unpleasant conversation. Is it a conversation where you berate your partner and he just sits there and takes it? |
Quote:
|
Quote:
Peace |
Quote:
|
Quote:
2. It is not about us not liking it but you have chosen to flat out violate a rule which states no official has the authority to change another officials ruling. You just took a mistake and compounded it. |
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:02pm. |