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ballgame99 Wed Jan 09, 2019 01:06pm

Reaching out of your area
 
Last night I am C, not much going on in my PCA, last second shot at the end of the 3rd quarter, 3 point shot goes up just below the FT line extended, which just happened to be directly across the court from me and my line of sight. (IE I have a great angle). I take a glance at it. I see the defender CLEARLY foul the shooter across the arm. I KNOW this is a foul, but I also know this is not my call. I wait, expecting a whistle from the trail, shooter comes all the way down, no whistle from Trail... I blow. Neither coach says a word, not even a groan from the crowd. Everyone saw this foul. Coach of the shooter actually commented that this was a great call (because he knew it wasn't my call to make but I did anyway).

Needless to say my partner wasn't happy.

When is it appropriate to reach out of your area? Does it have to be a flagrant or technical foul situation? Am I the worst partner ever? I've always read on here that you don't come that far out of your PCA unless it is a "crew saver". I felt like this fit the bill.

JRutledge Wed Jan 09, 2019 01:11pm

You can reach out of your area if you are right and it is rare. But you better be right.

What did your partner say? Did he think it was clearly a foul? Did he think it was marginal or not a foul at all?

Also, that is a rather long way to get a foul from the C. So it has to be very accurate or in transition on some level. I am not sure what you described either was a crew saving call.

Peace

BillyMac Wed Jan 09, 2019 01:19pm

Be Late, Be Right, Be Needed ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1028495)
You can reach out of your area if you are right and it is rare. But you better be right.

Agree. From my pregame: Stay in your primary. Something must be very obvious to come out of your primary. If something is there that really needs to be called, call it. Be late. Be right. Be needed.

UNIgiantslayers Wed Jan 09, 2019 01:27pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1028495)
I am not sure what you described either was a crew saving call.

Peace

I am not sure I agree with that. If it ends up being a 2 or 3 point game in the wrong direction, this no-call would've had an impact on the game. We can agree to disagree though. I would absolutely agree with the rest of what you said. That is a LONG way across the court.

jeremy341a Wed Jan 09, 2019 01:39pm

IMO Primary coverage area does not equal exclusive coverage area. I have no problem if you come and get it out of my area bc I know you're not doing that unless you are 100% certain. Isn't getting it right more important that someone only fishing in their own pond? It is to me.

JRutledge Wed Jan 09, 2019 01:47pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by UNIgiantslayers (Post 1028498)
I am not sure I agree with that. If it ends up being a 2 or 3 point game in the wrong direction, this no-call would've had an impact on the game. We can agree to disagree though. I would absolutely agree with the rest of what you said. That is a LONG way across the court.

But what if the partner felt there was a flop or the contact was exaggerated by the shooter (they tend to do that)? What if he saw the entire play and felt it was not something to be called? That is why I asked what did his partner say? And being that it is a long way, he has to be right. That means that the Lead possibly passed on that foul as well. So now two officials passed on this potentially and you came in to make that call. Just saying, be careful with that. Then if he passed on the foul, that is on him, not you. If you are wrong, then it is on you and not him.

Peace

ballgame99 Wed Jan 09, 2019 01:50pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1028495)

What did your partner say? Did he think it was clearly a foul? Did he think it was marginal or not a foul at all?

Also, that is a rather long way to get a foul from the C. So it has to be very accurate or in transition on some level. I am not sure what you described either was a crew saving call.

Peace

Thanks for the input. He thought the kid flopped because he kicked his legs out, but the contact I saw and called was across the arm.

It was absolutely a long way to go, and that is how sure I am that it was a foul. In hindsight I wouldn't call it, just because I've been told that it would be more appropriate to let him deal with the consequences of missing a call if he messed it up.

And btw this ended up being a 1 possession game at the end.

UNIgiantslayers Wed Jan 09, 2019 01:52pm

I can get behind that. I'd be more interested in what the video showed. If it showed I was right, I would call that a crew saver if it awards a team at (a possible) 3 points. If not, I'm fishing outside of my pond. Either way, I'm going to be 100% on one that I'm going across the court for. There won't be any doubt in my mind.

LRZ Wed Jan 09, 2019 02:12pm

To some extent, this depends on who your partners are (familiar or never worked together before?) and what you pre-game. I only work 2-ref, and my pre-game always includes this: "I'm not territorial, so if you clearly see a foul in my primary, call it. Let's get it right."

I also disagree with this: " I've been told that it would be more appropriate to let him deal with the consequences of missing a call if he messed it up." The officials are a team, and the team bears the responsibility to get foul calls right. Don't guess, but if 100% sure? If I were your partner, I'd rather you make that call. Maybe I was straight-lined; maybe I was looking up top and could not see lower body contact.

IMO/YMMV.

BillyMac Wed Jan 09, 2019 02:48pm

You Fish On Your Side ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jeremy341a (Post 1028499)
Isn't getting it right more important that someone only fishing in their own pond?

Quote:

Originally Posted by UNIgiantslayers (Post 1028502)
I'm fishing outside of my pond.

Brings to mind Lake Webster, right across the Massachusetts state line, otherwise known by its Native American Algonquian name, Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubuna. Translation is, "You fish on your side, I'll fish on my side, and no one shall fish in the middle".

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._long_name.jpg

JRutledge Wed Jan 09, 2019 02:49pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by LRZ (Post 1028503)
I also disagree with this: " I've been told that it would be more appropriate to let him deal with the consequences of missing a call if he messed it up." The officials are a team, and the team bears the responsibility to get foul calls right. Don't guess, but if 100% sure? If I were your partner, I'd rather you make that call. Maybe I was straight-lined; maybe I was looking up top and could not see lower body contact.

IMO/YMMV.

We are a team, but we are still individuals that have to make individual judgments. You are not being a good teammate if I pass on something that I clearly saw as not needing my whistle. So if you come in and get that and I adamantly disagree, you did not do your teammate very well. And in this case, the official said that he felt the shooter kicked out his leg (been emphasized at multiple levels) and did not feel it was a foul. Now you have told him and everyone that you do not trust him or that you have to come and get other plays that you did not see or were not looking at. I always make it very clear to coaches that there are plays I am not looking at what my partners are looking at. I even tell coaches that my partner will gladly explain things to a coach when they get a chance.

I am also going to say it this way. The higher you go up, the more you will have to realize they will not treat you as a team if the fall out happens. There was a play this past postseason where we had a major screw up in a game that took a team to the State Finals were an official "thought" he saw something and made a call on whether a shot was a 2 or a 3 at a very critical point of the game. He was the C and came across the lane to call a 3 point shot a 2. Then on video, it showed this official who as the C that was coming out of his primary was totally wrong and saw something that was clearly not there (this was a college floor with two 3 point lines). There was one official on the crew that had no idea what happened because he was the lead. He would not have been looking there for a foot on the line near the top of the key. The lead in this play could not give any information and no one expected him to. The talk was about the official the two officials involved, the one that made the call to change the 3 to a 2 and the official that had the primary. Now that play was certainly a play they could come together on because it was only an issue of points. But in a foul situation, you do not have a lot of options to take it back if your partner totally disagrees with you that is in his primary. This was not a rules situation either where we can make sure we are applying the rule properly. This is a foul that you cannot just take back. So you better be right and if you do not "beat the tape" that might be the reason you assignments or further opportunities might be evaluated. So yes we are a team, but when they fire one of you or suspend one of you, they are not going to do that as a team. I can tell you as a college official, I cannot go by "we are a team" mantra and save me from judgment mistakes I make. Just saying, be careful. Was it an ant or an elephant? And we cannot always use the croud reaction as a guage for a good call or not. We can be totally right and still they think we got it wrong.

Peace

BillyMac Wed Jan 09, 2019 02:55pm

Just What Makes That Little Old Ant, Think He’ll Move That Rubber Tree Plant ...
 
(Frank Sinatra, 1959)

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1028506)
Was it an ant or an elephant?

Agree. This isn't written in my pregame guidelines, but I use it all the time.

JRutledge Wed Jan 09, 2019 02:58pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1028507)
(Frank Sinatra, 1959)



Agree. This isn't written in my pregame guidelines, but I use it all the time.

You know this is not in the NF Rulebook or the NCAA Rulebook. ;)

Peace

griblets Wed Jan 09, 2019 02:59pm

If I'm the T, and I missed it, I would want you to come get it. Some won't. Got to know your partners. For me, it's not about who's right, it's about what's right. Just be sure you're right when you go that far!

Raymond Wed Jan 09, 2019 03:21pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1028506)
... Was it an ant or an elephant? ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1028507)
(Frank Sinatra, 1959)



Agree. This isn't written in my pregame guidelines, but I use it all the time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1028508)
You know this is not in the NF Rulebook or the NCAA Rulebook. ;)

Peace

Now that's funny.

Raymond Wed Jan 09, 2019 03:29pm

At the college level, if you are a new or journeyman official you CANNOT do this in front of a veteran. You're going to hear about it, and not in a good way.

There are a lot of dynamics and variables in play as to when it is or isn't appropriate to do this. As described in this situation, I don't think I'm coming that far to get it unless it is the last minute of a close game, I have no doubt it was a foul, and I have the status on that crew and with my supervisor to make that kind of call.

SD Referee Wed Jan 09, 2019 05:02pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1028512)
At the college level, if you are a new or journeyman official you CANNOT do this in front of a veteran. You're going to hear about it, and not in a good way.

There are a lot of dynamics and variables in play as to when it is or isn't appropriate to do this. As described in this situation, I don't think I'm coming that far to get it unless it is the last minute of a close game, I have no doubt it was a foul, and I have the status on that crew and with my supervisor to make that kind of call.

Being a veteran does not mean you are always correct or above missing a call.

Man, there are some incredibly big egos the higher up you go. Isn't the goal to get the calls right? If somebody doesn't see something and you do, I have no problem with somebody reaching AS LONG AS there is nothing going on in your PCA and you are right.

I couldn't care less about hearing about it not in a good way. Yelling loudly, or defending your bad call or lack of a call does not make you right or a better official. If your ego is that fragile, then I don't know what to say. (I know the OP is not talking about their self and this isn't directed at them)

I think we all prefer our partners do their jobs and stay in their PCA, but we all know there are times to reach out of your PCA. Sometimes the sea just parts and you can see what your partner cannot. If the game is on the line and you know you are right, get the call and make sure the game is not determined by a missed/wrong call. Just my opinion.

SC Official Wed Jan 09, 2019 05:11pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1028512)
At the college level, if you are a new or journeyman official you CANNOT do this in front of a veteran. You're going to hear about it, and not in a good way.

There are a lot of dynamics and variables in play as to when it is or isn't appropriate to do this. As described in this situation, I don't think I'm coming that far to get it unless it is the last minute of a close game, I have no doubt it was a foul, and I have the status on that crew and with my supervisor to make that kind of call.

I'm with you. I'm not touching this one.

An appropriate high-certainty foul to reach for would involve a player throwing an elbow or someone getting pushed or thrown to the ground-violent contact that, if unpenalized, will lead to big problems in your game. A jump shooter getting hit on the arm and going down in the third quarter is not going to lead to a fight if uncalled. You might have an unhappy coach, but let the partner who was right on top of the play deal with that fallout.

"Getting the call right" is all well and good, but to move up you have to learn what to let your partners, especially veterans, live and die with.

You're not going to get a call from the assigner for not coming all the way across the court to bail out your partner. You will get a call from the assigner if you reach that far to get a foul that wasn't there, or you reach that far to get something in front of a veteran that isn't a game-saver.

And for what it's worth, I've gotten more flack for reaching on fouls in high school games than in my college days. Because so many high school guys don't understand the concept of angles and cadence whistles. In my experience high school-only guys are more territorial than college officials.

Raymond Wed Jan 09, 2019 05:17pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SD Referee (Post 1028514)
Being a veteran does not mean you are always correct or above missing a call.

Man, there are some incredibly big egos the higher up you go. Isn't the goal to get the calls right? If somebody doesn't see something and you do, I have no problem with somebody reaching AS LONG AS there is nothing going on in your PCA and you are right.

I couldn't care less about hearing about it not in a good way. Yelling loudly, or defending your bad call or lack of a call does not make you right or a better official. If your ego is that fragile, then I don't know what to say. (I know the OP is not talking about their self and this isn't directed at them)

....

That's all well and good, but the NCAA officiating world is different than the HS world. I've worked college games with 3 different D1 Final Four officials. With 2 of the 3, it was very clear who was in charge of the game. With the 3rd, he missed an obvious travel that the entire gym, including me, saw. I thought for a millisecond about getting it but chose not to. After the game the observer asked the Final Four official about the play and then moved on. If it had been the other way around, the observer would have asked the Final Four official why he didn't come get it. At the NCAA level, supply exceeds demand, and an official's career can end or get severely damaged if he steps on the wrong toes or gives a bad impression to an observer. Like it or not, that is the reality of the situation. I've had more than one college supervisor say, for everyone to hear, that their veterans and observers can make or break your career.

There are all kinds of things I can get away with at the HS level that would get me fired from a college conference.

SC Official Wed Jan 09, 2019 05:18pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1028506)
We are a team, but we are still individuals that have to make individual judgments. You are not being a good teammate if I pass on something that I clearly saw as not needing my whistle. So if you come in and get that and I adamantly disagree, you did not do your teammate very well. And in this case, the official said that he felt the shooter kicked out his leg (been emphasized at multiple levels) and did not feel it was a foul. Now you have told him and everyone that you do not trust him or that you have to come and get other plays that you did not see or were not looking at. I always make it very clear to coaches that there are plays I am not looking at what my partners are looking at. I even tell coaches that my partner will gladly explain things to a coach when they get a chance.

I am also going to say it this way. The higher you go up, the more you will have to realize they will not treat you as a team if the fall out happens. There was a play this past postseason where we had a major screw up in a game that took a team to the State Finals were an official "thought" he saw something and made a call on whether a shot was a 2 or a 3 at a very critical point of the game. He was the C and came across the lane to call a 3 point shot a 2. Then on video, it showed this official who as the C that was coming out of his primary was totally wrong and saw something that was clearly not there (this was a college floor with two 3 point lines). There was one official on the crew that had no idea what happened because he was the lead. He would not have been looking there for a foot on the line near the top of the key. The lead in this play could not give any information and no one expected him to. The talk was about the official the two officials involved, the one that made the call to change the 3 to a 2 and the official that had the primary. Now that play was certainly a play they could come together on because it was only an issue of points. But in a foul situation, you do not have a lot of options to take it back if your partner totally disagrees with you that is in his primary. This was not a rules situation either where we can make sure we are applying the rule properly. This is a foul that you cannot just take back. So you better be right and if you do not "beat the tape" that might be the reason you assignments or further opportunities might be evaluated. So yes we are a team, but when they fire one of you or suspend one of you, they are not going to do that as a team. I can tell you as a college official, I cannot go by "we are a team" mantra and save me from judgment mistakes I make. Just saying, be careful. Was it an ant or an elephant? And we cannot always use the croud reaction as a guage for a good call or not. We can be totally right and still they think we got it wrong.

Peace

I couldn't have said it better.

SD Referee Wed Jan 09, 2019 05:35pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SC Official (Post 1028516)
I'm with you. I'm not touching this one.

An appropriate high-certainty foul to reach for would involve a player throwing an elbow or someone getting pushed or thrown to the ground-violent contact that, if unpenalized, will lead to big problems in your game. A jump shooter getting hit on the arm and going down in the third quarter is not going to lead to a fight if uncalled. You might have an unhappy coach, but let the partner who was right on top of the play deal with that fallout.

"Getting the call right" is all well and good, but to move up you have to learn what to let your partners, especially veterans, live and die with.

You're not going to get a call from the assigner for not coming all the way across the court to bail out your partner. You will get a call from the assigner if you reach that far to get a foul that wasn't there, or you reach that far to get something in front of a veteran that isn't a game-saver.

And for what it's worth, I've gotten more flack for reaching on fouls in high school games than in my college days. Because so many high school guys don't understand the concept of angles and cadence whistles. In my experience high school-only guys are more territorial than college officials.

Your answer/opinion is why I'm glad we aren't at the mercy of one master assignor and don't use them in my area. Our individual schools/ADs do the hiring.

SD Referee Wed Jan 09, 2019 05:38pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1028517)
That's all well and good, but the NCAA officiating world is different than the HS world. I've worked college games with 3 different D1 Final Four officials. With 2 of the 3, it was very clear who was in charge of the game. With the 3rd, he missed an obvious travel that the entire gym, including me, saw. I thought for a millisecond about getting it but chose not to. After the game the observer asked the Final Four official about the play and then moved on. If it had been the other way around, the observer would have asked the Final Four official why he didn't come get it. At the NCAA level, supply exceeds demand, and an official's career can end or get severely damaged if he steps on the wrong toes or gives a bad impression to an observer. Like it or not, that is the reality of the situation. I've had more than one college supervisor say, for everyone to hear, that their veterans and observers can make or break your career.

There are all kinds of things I can get away with at the HS level that would get me fired from a college conference.

Interesting. Makes me glad I have no time and interest in moving up in the college world. Sounds like a lot of egos and playing the "game".

I think it's sad that guys have to be afraid of stepping on egos/toes when a respected official screws something up. Everybody screws up and it's ok to admit when you do. If a member of your crew can get it right, I don't see the big deal.

I've seen plenty of college guys working games that mess things up. Things all of us have messed up in our careers. They are not gods and are not perfect. They have just played the "game" long enough.

SD Referee Wed Jan 09, 2019 05:41pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SC Official (Post 1028518)
I couldn't have said it better.

Very well said, but I think there are exceptions and things happen in games. I don't think any of us are going out of our way to make a call in front of our partners.

I believe the point of this topic was an obvious missed call. I don't think any of us will reach out of our PCA very often and try hard as hell not to.

I think we all agree that you need to stay in your PCA 99.9% of the time. I don't mind the .1% where it happens. Sounds like some guys at some levels have a hard time with it.

CJP Wed Jan 09, 2019 07:35pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ballgame99 (Post 1028493)
When is it appropriate to reach out of your area? Does it have to be a flagrant or technical foul situation? Am I the worst partner ever? I've always read on here that you don't come that far out of your PCA unless it is a "crew saver". I felt like this fit the bill.

I have had partners call fouls and violations in my primary area and I would say they were wrong most of the time. This does not include the times where primary coverage overlaps (dribble drive) but a clear case of me thinking "why is he even looking here". In most cases, my partner was absolutely sure the call was correct.

Camron Rust Wed Jan 09, 2019 07:46pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ballgame99 (Post 1028493)
Last night I am C, not much going on in my PCA, last second shot at the end of the 3rd quarter, 3 point shot goes up just below the FT line extended, which just happened to be directly across the court from me and my line of sight. (IE I have a great angle). I take a glance at it. I see the defender CLEARLY foul the shooter across the arm. I KNOW this is a foul, but I also know this is not my call. I wait, expecting a whistle from the trail, shooter comes all the way down, no whistle from Trail... I blow. Neither coach says a word, not even a groan from the crowd. Everyone saw this foul. Coach of the shooter actually commented that this was a great call (because he knew it wasn't my call to make but I did anyway).

Needless to say my partner wasn't happy.

When is it appropriate to reach out of your area? Does it have to be a flagrant or technical foul situation? Am I the worst partner ever? I've always read on here that you don't come that far out of your PCA unless it is a "crew saver". I felt like this fit the bill.

I could have used you on my game Monday. I had a play in my primary (3-point shot from trail, more or less at the FT-line extended) where the shot came off really odd. I, however, just did not see any contact. I didn't know if the shooter muffed it as he went up or what. My partners probably didn't seen anything they could have helped with but if they had, I would have been fine with the help. At halftime, I asked the crew waiting for the next game what happened (they were sitting behind the C) and they told me he was definitely fouled and told me where/how. It was a bit unusual, but it should have been a foul. I just missed it. Luckily, the team that was shooting was up by a bunch and was going to win going away so I didn't catch any grief over it.

JRutledge Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:24am

Quote:

Originally Posted by SD Referee (Post 1028520)
Interesting. Makes me glad I have no time and interest in moving up in the college world. Sounds like a lot of egos and playing the "game".

I think it's sad that guys have to be afraid of stepping on egos/toes when a respected official screws something up. Everybody screws up and it's ok to admit when you do. If a member of your crew can get it right, I don't see the big deal.

I've seen plenty of college guys working games that mess things up. Things all of us have messed up in our careers. They are not gods and are not perfect. They have just played the "game" long enough.

Well, I do the exact same thing at the high school level. I am often working with two people that I do not work with on a regular basis. The reason I might continue to work is that I am a good partner and I do not go around assuming I have to call the game for my partners. It is one thing to call something in a dual area, but not in someone's area where they clearly have a look at a play. If someone makes a call like this and the video does not back them up, they might not work the kind of games they wish. I have worked for many assignors some pretty big games and one of the reasons that keep happening is because I am able to take care of my business and my partners are working those games for the very same reason.

Sorry but in this example, the official called something way out of his area and his partner that was on top of the player felt the call was not warranted. Guess what that official might say if asked about that play to a supervisor if asked? He might not directly throw his partner under the bus, but he might just stay what he saw. That is how you get into trouble. And a good supervisor will not only ask, but see the video if that is brought to their attention.

Guess who also asks around about particular officials? You guessed it, fellow officials get asked often about what they think of partners or might be a clinician at a camp and also give reasons for why this person should be hired or moved up. Things like this just at camp might tell me you are not ready to work a certain level. And I do not assign anything, but my opinion is often requested by those that do.

Peace

Nevadaref Thu Jan 10, 2019 06:13am

It is one thing to help in your secondary area when you believe that your partner got blocked out or couldn’t see a clear infraction due to the angles of the players, but what one should avoid is over-riding another official’s judgment on a play which is observed. To be more specific, I am talking about a play in which there is contact which two officials observe. If the officials have different thresholds for what constitutes a foul, one may determine that no foul occurred and no whistle is the correct decision while the other will blow and make a call also believing that he is correct. This type of play is why I cannot agree with the “get it right” camp. These situations should be left to the primary official.

ballgame99 Thu Jan 10, 2019 09:34am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 1028531)
It is one thing to help in your secondary area when you believe that your partner got blocked out or couldn’t see a clear infraction due to the angles of the players, but what one should avoid is over-riding another official’s judgment on a play which is observed. To be more specific, I am talking about a play in which there is contact which two officials observe. If the officials have different thresholds for what constitutes a foul, one may determine that no foul occurred and no whistle is the correct decision while the other will blow and make a call also believing that he is correct. This type of play is why I cannot agree with the “get it right” camp. These situations should be left to the primary official.

I agree 100% with this and subscribe to this philosophy fully. The play in question was well above this level of judgement, I just don't think my partner had the angle to see the contact that I saw. Or based on his comments he was looking low when the contact was high. But I have had partners call an "over the back" right in my kitchen from across the lane when I am looking directly at the play. That should be avoided at all costs.

JRutledge Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:02am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ballgame99 (Post 1028534)
I agree 100% with this and subscribe to this philosophy fully. The play in question was well above this level of judgement, I just don't think my partner had the angle to see the contact that I saw. Or based on his comments he was looking low when the contact was high. But I have had partners call an "over the back" right in my kitchen from across the lane when I am looking directly at the play. That should be avoided at all costs.

But the play you described was in his lap. And if you stick your leg out to create contact, I do not care what other contact took place, I am probably passing on that play too. There is a big emphasis at many levels not to call the offensive initiated contact. He told you that he saw the contact below and you basically are saying he did not see what you saw, so you called it anyway. That is where I would be mad as an official, not because you felt you saw something. He did not say he was screened or surprised by the contact.

Peace

Pantherdreams Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:31am

If you are going to call into my my area there had better be some conditions:

1) THere better be a lot going on and you legitimately believe I was screened out or missed something.

2) It had better not be on the player/players I am very clearly watching and making decisions about.

3) You had better be getting something dirty/excessive if its a foul anything marginal is not worth you coming into my area on stuff we can no call.

If you don' t have 2 of those conditions met we are probably going to talk about why you assumed my judgement wasn't as valid as yours.

SD Referee Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:07pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1028530)
Well, I do the exact same thing at the high school level. I am often working with two people that I do not work with on a regular basis. The reason I might continue to work is that I am a good partner and I do not go around assuming I have to call the game for my partners. It is one thing to call something in a dual area, but not in someone's area where they clearly have a look at a play. If someone makes a call like this and the video does not back them up, they might not work the kind of games they wish. I have worked for many assignors some pretty big games and one of the reasons that keep happening is because I am able to take care of my business and my partners are working those games for the very same reason.

Sorry but in this example, the official called something way out of his area and his partner that was on top of the player felt the call was not warranted. Guess what that official might say if asked about that play to a supervisor if asked? He might not directly throw his partner under the bus, but he might just stay what he saw. That is how you get into trouble. And a good supervisor will not only ask, but see the video if that is brought to their attention.

Guess who also asks around about particular officials? You guessed it, fellow officials get asked often about what they think of partners or might be a clinician at a camp and also give reasons for why this person should be hired or moved up. Things like this just at camp might tell me you are not ready to work a certain level. And I do not assign anything, but my opinion is often requested by those that do.

Peace

I hear what you are saying and I agree with you. You obviously know quite a bit about officiating. I guess the point I'm making is, and I"m not being clear, is that I'm not reaching out of my PCA unless I know 100% what I saw. No doubt whatsoever. I don't think any of you guys are reaching either unless you are 100% correct. Sounds like some of you will never reach.

For me it's the 0.1% of the time that this can happen. I believe in crew savers from time to time. We all get blocked out from time to time or just don't see something for whatever reason. If somebody is 100% right and makes a call in my area, I'm fine with it. I will do the same and hope they are fine with it as I know I only did it because I am 100% right. Any doubt in my mind and I'm not doing it.

johnny d Thu Jan 10, 2019 02:00pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams (Post 1028540)
If you are going to call into my my area there had better be some conditions:

1) THere better be a lot going on and you legitimately believe I was screened out or missed something.

2) It had better not be on the player/players I am very clearly watching and making decisions about.

3) You had better be getting something dirty/excessive if its a foul anything marginal is not worth you coming into my area on stuff we can no call.

If you don' t have 2 of those conditions met we are probably going to talk about why you assumed my judgement wasn't as valid as yours.

Lighten up Francis!

youngump Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:07am

I lurk around here and was reading this thread yesterday; then in the evening happened to be at this game: https://www.byutv.org/player/0e143c0...d-vs-byu-11019
There's an on-point play at the 35:10 or so mark in the video (8:20 or so left in the game). (Sorry no idea how to embed a with time link to that site).

bucky Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:19am

Good example of C coming from a long way with a late whistle, although he sold it strongly. Commentators discuss the fact that official farthest away made the call.

JRutledge Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:33am

I do not see the foul here. I think he called it before the shot, but I did not even see that as a foul.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/lZTmyVpsMmw" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Peace

Camron Rust Fri Jan 11, 2019 01:31pm

Tough to see, but it is there....knee to knee as the shooter was going up, putting the shooter off balance for the shot. From most of the angles, you just can't see it so it would be easy to miss.

It was right in line with where the C should be looking. Maybe not enough to go get but I'd argue that it had a clear impact on the shot.

Raymond Fri Jan 11, 2019 02:00pm

I believe that is a former NBA official making that call. Defender walks into the shooter's right elbow as he is elevating. Center is the only official with an open look to that contact. I work for an NBA official, this is a play he would expect one of his vets to come get, especially when a road team is getting waxed by 18 points. He doesn't have that same expectation for a less-seasoned official.

bob jenkins Fri Jan 11, 2019 02:01pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bucky (Post 1028597)
Good example of C coming from a long way with a late whistle, although he sold it strongly. Commentators discuss the fact that official farthest away made the call.

Actually, at least one of the announcers discussed the fact that the official furthest away made the call.

Another time to announcer was incorrect.

Raymond Fri Jan 11, 2019 02:06pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1028611)
Actually, at least one of the announcers discussed the fact that the official furthest away made the call.

Another time to announcer was incorrect.

You can't be the grammar police while making typos.

Sometimes an official farthest from the play has the best look.

bucky Fri Jan 11, 2019 02:16pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1028611)
Actually, at least one of the announcers discussed the fact that the official furthest away made the call.

Another time to announcer was incorrect.

What is the purpose of this post? It can't be in relation to the usage of "farthest "versus "furthest". "Farthest" is correct. It just can't be, not from someone who included a typo like "..time to announcer.."

bob jenkins Fri Jan 11, 2019 03:05pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1028612)
You can't be the grammar police while making typos.

Sometimes an official farthest from the play has the best look.

1. Shore eye Ken.

2. Petard. Hoist.

3. "Farthest" is correct. The announcer said, "Furthest."

4. Back to the original post (in the original thread, if this isn't it). Everyone agrees that sometimes an official should call out of his PCA. And, everyone agrees that sometimes an official should not call out of his PCA. Deciding when to do so is part of the art of officiating. And, the "when" varies by level, experience, and even play-to-play.

BigCat Fri Jan 11, 2019 05:28pm

Raymond and Camron, I just don't see it. look at the replays, third one...They call me cyclops for a reason but I just don't have anything. To the general public...Do NOT come across the floor for this...

Camron Rust Sat Jan 12, 2019 03:38am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigCat (Post 1028620)
Raymond and Camron, I just don't see it. look at the replays, third one...They call me cyclops for a reason but I just don't have anything. To the general public...Do NOT come across the floor for this...

Look at time 56 and you'll see the defenders left knee/leg come into the shooter's forward leg and knock it at a weird angle as the shooter jumps.

Maybe not enough to go get, but it wasn't wrong.

JRutledge Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:46am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 1028625)
Look at time 56 and you'll see the defenders left knee/leg come into the shooter's forward leg and knock it at a weird angle as the shooter jumps.

Maybe not enough to go get, but it wasn't wrong.

I do not see that either. We are talking about a knee that might have made contact? Sorry, that is not a foul and I am not calling that a foul from there. It is not a foul to simply touch. The dribbler tried to go somewhere and a defender is in his face. That is a bad shot and I am not calling a foul just to find something that is clearly not obvious to everyone. If you have to look at it again and again and again just to determine if there is some contact.

There was more contact on a play that I did not call a foul on this week in a college game and the angle was horrible. I might post the video and I still feel that is not a foul. This is with multiple angles and less contested.

Peace

Raymond Sat Jan 12, 2019 09:50pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 1028625)
Look at time 56 and you'll see the defenders left knee/leg come into the shooter's forward leg and knock it at a weird angle as the shooter jumps.



Maybe not enough to go get, but it wasn't wrong.

I have the defender walking into shooter's right elbow.

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Camron Rust Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:05pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1028664)
I have the defender walking into shooter's right elbow.

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So he got fouled twice? ;)

BigCat Sun Jan 13, 2019 01:10pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1028664)
I have the defender walking into shooter's right elbow.

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If there is anything it is the "walking into him" stuff.....and, as you mentioned, the team's getting creamed so I can understand a call. still not so sure from other side of floor.

thedewed Sun Jan 13, 2019 04:41pm

if players and coaches knew that some officials cared about their egos more than getting it right, they'd puke. I can understand this a little bit, but if you are 100% sure and suspect the others have been straight-lined at a minimum, go get it. If it clearly created an advantage, go get it. It's more important to be principled in calling the game than looking out for your own politics.

Raymond Sun Jan 13, 2019 04:48pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigCat (Post 1028693)
If there is anything it is the "walking into him" stuff.....and, as you mentioned, the team's getting creamed so I can understand a call. still not so sure from other side of floor.

As I mentioned earlier, I believe that is a former NBA ref (Tommy Nunez?). They believe in officials with open looks coming to get plays. There is no way for Lead or Trail to see that contact.

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BigCat Sun Jan 13, 2019 04:52pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1028706)
As I mentioned earlier, I believe that is a former NBA ref (Tommy Nunez?). They believe in officials with open looks coming to get plays. There is no way for Lead or Trail to see that contact.

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I can’t tell if it’s him or not...but if it is then he’s earned the right to do what he did. I’m not sure why you say trail can’t see contact...he certainly should..he’s got to work for the angle but nothing crazy going on here...

BigCat Sun Jan 13, 2019 04:57pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by thedewed (Post 1028705)
if players and coaches knew that some officials cared about their egos more than getting it right, they'd puke. I can understand this a little bit, but if you are 100% sure and suspect the others have been straight-lined at a minimum, go get it. If it clearly created an advantage, go get it. It's more important to be principled in calling the game than looking out for your own politics.

You will learn as you age grasshopper. It’s not about my politics or any. If it’s a train wreck or an obvious foul ...really really obvious that everybody in gym sees then do it. Game time and situations matter also. Just because you think your partner ,in his primary, missed a call isn’t for you to come running in.
You can screw up a game berry easily that way..

youngump Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:28am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigCat (Post 1028693)
and, as you mentioned, the team's getting creamed so I can understand a call.

You're the second person who has mentioned this. Are you seriously suggesting that in D1 college basketball it's appropriate to start calling a lopsided game because one team is down 18 early in the first half or am I missing something?

ilyazhito Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:03pm

To me personally, time and score is irrelevant when making calls. The rules and casebook (approved rulings) do not mention that one should change calls based on time and score, so doing that would not be game management, but game manipulation. It is not my business whether the game is competitive or a laugher, my only issue is to make sure that players play legally and safely.

BillyMac Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:15pm

Fine And Dandy ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1028760)
To me personally, time and score is irrelevant when making calls.

That may be all fine and dandy until one gets to the last minutes of a close game. Intentional fouls? Fouls to simply stop the clock? Deliberate off ball fouls? Delay of game? Strategic timeouts? Hack a Shaq? Crazed coaches? Situations that were unimpressive and relatively benign in the first thirty minutes take on a different and possibly "hyper" meaning in the last two minutes.

For example, slight touch contact that doesn't put a player at a disadvantage in the first thirty minutes and is ignored as incidental becomes a method for one team to stop the clock and slow the game down in the last two minutes. Don't call this same contact a foul in the last two minutes and you'll have the players killing each other to get a call, which could escalate into a fight.

C'mon ilyazhito. You're better than this. You're off your game. What's wrong with you today? Get up on the wrong side of the bed?

BigCat Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:38pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by youngump (Post 1028755)
You're the second person who has mentioned this. Are you seriously suggesting that in D1 college basketball it's appropriate to start calling a lopsided game because one team is down 18 early in the first half or am I missing something?

You are missing something...and adding things..Nobody said “start calling a lopsided game.” I did not and do not like the C going across the floor here for this call. Raymond mentioned he’s an NBA fellow and the score. I’d like to get every call right...every time. Right or wrong, if a team’s getting pummeled.. I sure don’t want to miss an obvious foul call vs the team getting pummeled. NBA training and score coujd have influenced his decision to cross floor.
Experience will explain this more and better than I can..

BigCat Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:42pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1028760)
To me personally, time and score is irrelevant when making calls. The rules and casebook (approved rulings) do not mention that one should change calls based on time and score, so doing that would not be game management, but game manipulation. It is not my business whether the game is competitive or a laugher, my only issue is to make sure that players play legally and safely.

What you call and what you don’t call is called judgment...plenty of folks can read the rule book and case book (although very few do it enough). Then you have to be able to referee...

BillyMac Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:48pm

4% Neanderthal DNA ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BigCat (Post 1028767)
Then you have to be able to referee ...

https://tse3.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.h...=0&w=234&h=177

Watch out. I've got a club and I know how to use it.

youngump Mon Jan 14, 2019 02:02pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigCat (Post 1028766)
You are missing something...and adding things..Nobody said “start calling a lopsided game.” I did not and do not like the C going across the floor here for this call.

You said that this call was more understandable because the team was getting creamed. I'm having trouble reconciling that statement with the idea that you're going to keep calling a fair game. Either the fact that the team is behind matters or it doesn't. And if it matters then you are no longer calling a fair game.

I'm also a little bit skeptical about the idea that down 18 early in the game in college is getting creamed. In this particular game, that 18 point lead turned into a 3 point lead before halftime.

BigCat Mon Jan 14, 2019 02:24pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by youngump (Post 1028774)
You said that this call was more understandable because the team was getting creamed. I'm having trouble reconciling that statement with the idea that you're going to keep calling a fair game. Either the fact that the team is behind matters or it doesn't. And if it matters then you are no longer calling a fair game.

I'm also a little bit skeptical about the idea that down 18 early in the game in college is getting creamed. In this particular game, that 18 point lead turned into a 3 point lead before halftime.

I did not like the call. I did not watch the game. Experience will be your best teacher. I’m trying to reconcile why he thought it was necessary to cross floor. 1st half is early for game management mode. There will be times when the score is a factor in what you call or don’t call. You will miss calls, I wil miss calls. If a team is getting pummeled I’m more likely to step in if you just blew a call. Again, experience will tell you when to do it or not. This may have not been right time.

Raymond Mon Jan 14, 2019 02:36pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1028760)
To me personally, time and score is irrelevant when making calls. The rules and casebook (approved rulings) do not mention that one should change calls based on time and score, so doing that would not be game management, but game manipulation. It is not my business whether the game is competitive or a laugher, my only issue is to make sure that players play legally and safely.

30 point blow-out, 50/50 block charge play that can go either way in real time. You're going to put the foul on the team losing by 30?

Team A is down by 2 in the last 10 seconds, A1 drives to the basket and incurs contact that has both been passed on and called on earlier plays in the game. What are you going to decide if A1 misses the shot? What are you going to decide if A1 makes the shot?

As far as the play being discussed here. That team is down by 18 points, on the road. You can't miss fouls committed against that team. That was a foul that was missed by the Lead and Trail b/c there were stacked to the contact.

Your "strictly by the book" mindset will work for you at the HS school level. If you ever start working NCAA basketball (I'll speak for this region of the country), you'll see that mindset starting to shift. NCAA supervisors want officials who have common sense and make good decisions.

BillyMac Mon Jan 14, 2019 02:54pm

Work On The Upper Floors ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1028776)
Your "strictly by the book" mindset will work for you at the HS school level ...

Not here in my little corner of Connecticut it won't, especially in varsity games. Our assigner and evaluators expect officials to adjust to changing game situations, sometimes based on time and score, especially in the last two minutes of a close game. And if one expects to be highly rated in game management, experience and observations of more experienced officials will get you further along than reading all the books in China.

Yes, know the rules and interpretations, but that's just the foundation, a solid foundation, but it's just the foundation.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/lowres.jant...501635_low.jpg

JRutledge Mon Jan 14, 2019 03:04pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1028776)
30 point blow-out, 50/50 block charge play that can go either way in real time. You're going to put the foul on the team losing by 30?

Team A is down by 2 in the last 10 seconds, A1 drives to the basket and incurs contact that has both been passed on and called on earlier plays in the game. What are you going to decide if A1 misses the shot? What are you going to decide if A1 makes the shot?

As far as the play being discussed here. That team is down by 18 points, on the road. You can't miss fouls committed against that team. That was a foul that was missed by the Lead and Trail b/c there were stacked to the contact.

Your "strictly by the book" mindset will work for you at the HS school level. If you ever start working NCAA basketball (I'll speak for this region of the country), you'll see that mindset starting to shift. NCAA supervisors want officials who have common sense and make good decisions.

I totally agree with most of your comments, I just do not think this is a foul. At least not one that stands out so much that all would agree. There are certainly calls I would suggest should be called even from that position, but this is not one of them IMO.

Peace

Rich Mon Jan 14, 2019 03:18pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1028760)
To me personally, time and score is irrelevant when making calls. The rules and casebook (approved rulings) do not mention that one should change calls based on time and score, so doing that would not be game management, but game manipulation. It is not my business whether the game is competitive or a laugher, my only issue is to make sure that players play legally and safely.

You can be 100% on the science of officiating, but if you are a 0% on the art of officiating you won't get anywhere.

The one thing I'll say is this -- plays are clipped and sent in for all sports without context, so you can't just make stuff up, be incorrect, and use the "but it was a 40 point game" thing. But Raymond is right -- a true 50/50 call -- and I know how I'm calling it.

Example -- ball shoots out of bounds with 5 minutes left in a 30 point game. I have no idea who it went off of, but it was close either way. It's going to the losing team without a second thought.

I suppose you'd get help and then, failing to get help, would go to the arrow?

SC Official Mon Jan 14, 2019 03:44pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 1028779)
Example -- ball shoots out of bounds with 5 minutes left in a 30 point game. I have no idea who it went off of, but it was close either way. It's going to the losing team without a second thought.

I suppose you'd get help and then, failing to get help, would go to the arrow?

Agreed.

I have been in this situation, and sometimes forgetting about the time/score, I ask for help. And then my partner lackadaisically points the direction of the winning team and we're stuck, when the best option was just to give it to the losing team from the get-go.

I've also been in situations where a partner awards the ball to the losing team on a non-obvious OOB decision, and the other partner comes racing in to give help and the ball gets given to the winning team. :o

SC Official Mon Jan 14, 2019 03:48pm

I'm completely opposed to passing on 100% obvious fouls and violations based on time/score, or giving the ball to the losing team when everyone in the gym knows the ball went OOB off them. That opens the door for the winning coach to complain about how we "stopped officiating" and send in plays, and that's a call I never want to get from an assigner.

But if it's truly a play that could go either way when judged in real time, give the benefit of the doubt to the team getting slaughtered. And by all means don't miss anything obvious against the winning team. If that means grabbing something marginal that will keep the losing coach at bay, so be it. If the winning coach wants to complain, let him do so and any assigner worth his salt will ignore him.

ChuckS Mon Jan 14, 2019 04:51pm

I totally agree with 50/50 calls benefitting the team getting killed. But when I started, I would have veteran partners give the ball to that team to start the 4th Q, even though the arrow favored the winning team. Being a rookie I didn't say anything. Now I do. Typically it's Rec or travel, but it did also occur in a couple of HS JV games.

ilyazhito Mon Jan 14, 2019 05:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1028776)
30 point blow-out, 50/50 block charge play that can go either way in real time. You're going to put the foul on the team losing by 30?

Team A is down by 2 in the last 10 seconds, A1 drives to the basket and incurs contact that has both been passed on and called on earlier plays in the game. What are you going to decide if A1 misses the shot? What are you going to decide if A1 makes the shot?

As far as the play being discussed here. That team is down by 18 points, on the road. You can't miss fouls committed against that team. That was a foul that was missed by the Lead and Trail b/c there were stacked to the contact.

Your "strictly by the book" mindset will work for you at the HS school level. If you ever start working NCAA basketball (I'll speak for this region of the country), you'll see that mindset starting to shift. NCAA supervisors want officials who have common sense and make good decisions.

Raymond, I have no call on the video in the OP, because I don't see any contact between defender and shooter, much less illegal contact. The defender was walking towards the shooter, but I see no contact from the C's or camera's angle. I'm passing on the play. I'm not raising up phantoms, but I will come for obvious misses (definite illegal contact unseen by partners).

In NCAA, no block charge play is 50/50, because of the restricted area arc, so my determination would be (in this order) in or out (of the arc), and then was the defender in a legal guarding position facing his opponent. If in [and no unnatural body positions/motion by the offensive player], then there is only one possible call (block). If out, then I would proceed to determine was the defender legal. Under NFHS rules, I'll determine if the defender was legal, and go with the result of that determination. I would make the exact same call in a 1-score game in the VHSL (MPSSAA or DCSAA) championship as I would in a 30-point blowout.

For the drive to the basket, I would have a foul in both scenarios if the contact was illegal, and no call if the contact was marginal or incidental. It's tough to explain this without video, though.

BigCat Mon Jan 14, 2019 05:38pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1028786)
Raymond, I have no call on the video in the OP, because I don't see any contact between defender and shooter, much less illegal contact. The defender was walking towards the shooter, but I see no contact from the C's or camera's angle. I'm passing on the play. I'm not raising up phantoms, but I will come for obvious misses (definite illegal contact unseen by partners).

In NCAA, no block charge play is 50/50, because of the restricted area arc, so my determination would be (in this order) in or out (of the arc), and then was the defender in a legal guarding position facing his opponent. If in [and no unnatural body positions/motion by the offensive player], then there is only one possible call (block). If out, then I would proceed to determine was the defender legal. Under NFHS rules, I'll determine if the defender was legal, and go with the result of that determination. I would make the exact same call in a 1-score game in the VHSL (MPSSAA or DCSAA) championship as I would in a 30-point blowout.

For the drive to the basket, I would have a foul in both scenarios if the contact was illegal, and no call if the contact was marginal or incidental. It's tough to explain this without video, though.

Good luck to you. Something about a horse and water...let me know where you are in say 10 years. I should be more patient...however, you lose me when you say there are no 50/50 calls...You need to learn that there are and not split hairs.... If you are In my crew one of first things I’m going to tell you...be aware of what we call. If I call a charge at one end and you have similar play....(0/50 or even 55-45.) call it same. I don’t expect you take bullet for me if I completely butcher it. Get it right.”
You saying there’s no 50/50 calls shows your lack of experience..You won’t move up nor should you with this view. Lot of things are black and white.Those are the easy things. Can you SEE and referee the GRAY areas...

Raymond Mon Jan 14, 2019 06:02pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1028786)
Raymond, I have no call on the video in the OP, because I don't see any contact between defender and shooter, much less illegal contact. The defender was walking towards the shooter, but I see no contact from the C's or camera's angle. I'm passing on the play. I'm not raising up phantoms, but I will come for obvious misses (definite illegal contact unseen by partners).



In NCAA, no block charge play is 50/50, because of the restricted area arc, so my determination would be (in this order) in or out (of the arc), and then was the defender in a legal guarding position facing his opponent. If in [and no unnatural body positions/motion by the offensive player], then there is only one possible call (block). If out, then I would proceed to determine was the defender legal. Under NFHS rules, I'll determine if the defender was legal, and go with the result of that determination. I would make the exact same call in a 1-score game in the VHSL (MPSSAA or DCSAA) championship as I would in a 30-point blowout.



For the drive to the basket, I would have a foul in both scenarios if the contact was illegal, and no call if the contact was marginal or incidental. It's tough to explain this without video, though.

You think all block charge plays involve the restricted area in college basketball?

You think in real time at game speed all calls are cut and dry? You think officials never have to make an educated guess, even the best officials in the world?

If you ever come to a camp run by Tony Brothers and Leroy Richardson, I would love to hear the conversations you have with them.

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ilyazhito Tue Jan 15, 2019 03:27am

Don't you get nuance? In NCAA, restricted area B/C plays are cut and dry, because there is a basic sequence of decisions, but I did not say that there are no non-restricted area plays. I said "If out (of the restricted area), I would proceed to determine whether the defender was legal." This means that B/C plays can occur outside the restricted area as well. I would use the criteria of legal guarding position to determine whether the contact is a block or charge. If I know what to look for (did defender beat offensive player to the spot before offensive player went airborne?), B/C plays are relatively easy.

It's plays where there is possible traveling (or another violation) before the foul that can get difficult. As L, I wI'll most likely be looking at the defender from the feet up to determine LGP, so it would fall to T and/or C to pick up travels, depending on angles. This would be a case where reaching would be completely acceptable, because I might not have a proper angle to rule on both fouls and traveling from my primary area.

ilyazhito Tue Jan 15, 2019 03:32am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigCat (Post 1028787)
Good luck to you. Something about a horse and water...let me know where you are in say 10 years. I should be more patient...however, you lose me when you say there are no 50/50 calls...You need to learn that there are and not split hairs.... If you are In my crew one of first things I’m going to tell you...be aware of what we call. If I call a charge at one end and you have similar play....(0/50 or even 55-45.) call it same. I don’t expect you take bullet for me if I completely butcher it. Get it right.”
You saying there’s no 50/50 calls shows your lack of experience..You won’t move up nor should you with this view. Lot of things are black and white.Those are the easy things. Can you SEE and referee the GRAY areas...

I only said that there are no 50/50 B/C calls in NCAA because of the restricted area. This means that defender in restricted area with illegal contact (and no unnatural position /motion by offensive player) = block, defender outside with illegal contact = charge if defender is legal, otherwise block. I did not say that there are no 50/50 calls in general, just for a specific situation.

Raymond Tue Jan 15, 2019 08:39am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1028798)
I only said that there are no 50/50 B/C calls in NCAA because of the restricted area. This means that defender in restricted area with illegal contact (and no unnatural position /motion by offensive player) = block, defender outside with illegal contact = charge if defender is legal, otherwise block. I did not say that there are no 50/50 calls in general, just for a specific situation.

Hmmmm:
Quote:

In NCAA, no block charge play is 50/50, because of the restricted area arc...
So there are no 50/50 block/charge calls outside of the restricted area? And I guess you've never picked up a play late. You ALWAYS know if the defender was legal b/c you see everything all the time?

How many NCAA games have you worked that you are able to tell us what does or doesn't occur in an NCAA game?

Rich Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:03am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1028797)
Don't you get nuance?

I'll be over here on my fainting couch.

ilyazhito Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:24am

Raymond, re-read post #70. I may not always know what is happening, but I can pickup my secondary defenders and identify their actions and legal/illegal position. I make B/C decisions based on their location (irrelevant for NFHS) and legality. This is why block/charge plays are simple for me (not necessarily easy, because there are moving bodies at high speeds).

LRZ Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:49am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 1028808)
I'll be over here on my fainting couch.

Move over, Rich, make room for me.

Raymond Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:49am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1028809)
Raymond, re-read post #70. I may not always know what is happening, but I can pickup my secondary defenders and identify their actions and legal/illegal position. I make B/C decisions based on their location (irrelevant for NFHS) and legality. This is why block/charge plays are simple for me (not necessarily easy, because there are moving bodies at high speeds).

Again, you have a limited amount of experience. There are going to be times where you pick up plays late or are looking in the wrong place then all of a sudden there is a crash in your primary. You live in a Black & White world. Officiating has a lot of grey areas and unexpected things that happen. Believe it or not, most officials judge their B/C calls on the legality of the defenders, you're not opening up some new world to the rest of us. You need to listen more and curtail some of the lectures and history lessons you dispense to us.

Rich Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:51am

Quote:

Originally Posted by LRZ (Post 1028812)
Move over, Rich, make room for me.

I have a glorious set of clutching pearls one can borrow.

SD Referee Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:53am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1028813)
Again, you have a limited amount of experience. There are going to be times where you pick up plays late or are looking in the wrong place then all of a sudden there is a crash in your primary. You live in a Black & White world. Officiating has a lot of grey areas and unexpected things that happen. Believe it or not, most officials judge their B/C calls on the legality of the defenders, you're not opening up some new world to the rest of us. You need to listen more and curtail some of the lectures and history lessons you dispense to us.


Stay in your lane bro!

(not directed at you Raymond, just quoting my new favorite commercial and telling ilyazhito to listen more, talk less)

Rich Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:22pm

I am merely a HS official. I have a certain mentality when I work a game.

I own my primary and realize I can't go reaching out of it in an effort to save the world. If I do that, I might get a call right, but I'm losing ownership of my primary. And I'm just as likely to get a call wrong.

Frankly, this is easiest to do when I don't know the other officials well. We work a lot of games in crews and when I work with my regular guys, we are really comfortable grabbing something we think a partner missed and the lines on the floor get, unfortunately, blurred.

But when I'm with relative strangers, I think to myself -- I want them to think of me as a good partner. And I only reach when I know I have to and have an open look at what I'm reaching for. Stay in my damned primary.

There are times when all eyes have to be on the ball. Last possession, player takes it to the rack or elevates for a winning jump shot. There's nothing else that matters there. If there's contact from the backside or something the primary official CAN'T see, then we have to come and get it. Otherwise? It's just one call in a 36 minute game and I'm not injecting a whole bunch of nonsense into a game just so we MAYBE get the call right on the floor.

A lot of these "reaching" scenarios involve one official (not primary) substituting his judgment for another's (primary). That's just wrong, completely wrong.

JRutledge Tue Jan 15, 2019 06:12pm

Bottom line, I want to beat the tape. That is it. I do not care about much else. And unless you are working a TV game with multiple angles, it is harder to beat the tape. I called a play kind of out of my area on Saturday, it was the only call out of my area they entire game. It did not save the game. It just was an open look and gave my partners every opportunity to see it. But I was not doing that again. The call did not save the world or the game. And if I passed on the play, no one would have said anything but maybe the shooter (he is on the video saying he got hit on the arm).

I just think there are plays we are going to miss and I am not putting my bread and butter on calls outside of my primary when I respect the partners I am working with.

Peace

Rich Tue Jan 15, 2019 06:17pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1028829)
Bottom line, I want to beat the tape. That is it. I do not care about much else. And unless you are working a TV game with multiple angles, it is harder to beat the tape. I called a play kind of out of my area on Saturday, it was the only call out of my area they entire game. It did not save the game. It just was an open look and gave my partners every opportunity to see it. But I was not doing that again. The call did not save the world or the game. And if I passed on the play, no one would have said anything but maybe the shooter (he is on the video saying he got hit on the arm).

I just think there are plays we are going to miss and I am not putting my bread and butter on calls outside of my primary when I respect the partners I am working with.

Peace

I learned my lesson on "beat the tape" as a small college deep wing in football. I called DPI that was pretty obvious to me in my position and the observer simply told me it wasn't a strong flag based on one crappy angle from a-top the press box.

Lesson learned. At that level, it better be a gigantic elephant or you simply don't hit it.

Same thing in a HS game. It had better show up on the crappy tape or I'm not coming all the way across the court while singing the Mighty Mouse theme.

JRutledge Tue Jan 15, 2019 06:21pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 1028830)
I learned my lesson on "beat the tape" as a small college deep wing in football. I called DPI that was pretty obvious to me in my position and the observer simply told me it wasn't a strong flag based on one crappy angle from a-top the press box.

Lesson learned. At that level, it better be a gigantic elephant or you simply don't hit it.

Same thing in a HS game. It had better show up on the crappy tape or I'm not coming all the way across the court while singing the Mighty Mouse theme.

Football videos are not very good based on the camera person and the quality of the angles. So when I say beat the tape, if there is something that is critical, it better at least shown up on video on some level. Otherwise, the supervisor can suggest you did not get it right. I am just saying, do not give them a reason. And as a general rule, it keeps you out of trouble. Football are worse than basketball in that respect. Even on TV, there is usually one angle that settles the situation. Not the case so much in basketball games.

Peace

BillyMac Tue Jan 15, 2019 08:09pm

Mighty Mouse Is On The Way ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 1028830)
... while singing the Mighty Mouse theme.

For you young'uns, it's, "Here I come to save the day".

https://youtu.be/X78i13q-atk

Randa16 Sat Jan 19, 2019 09:23am

Nothing ticks me off more then my partner calling a foul or violation in my area. In high school games if you pull this crap the first time you get a loook, the second you a head shake and the third we are going to have a conversation you will not like at halftime or after the game. I still do youth games and that is a train wreck of officials who call outside their area. I had a partner in lead position call travel at half court one time, I reversed the call and told him to stay the F out of my area before I get mad. I don’t call other areas for 2 reasons, it’s your job and your area and second it looks bad when

Raymond Sat Jan 19, 2019 10:42am

What does "a conversation you will not like" look like?

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Rich Sat Jan 19, 2019 10:43am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1029037)
What does "a conversation you will not like" look like?

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk



The thought has me shaking in my boots.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

LRZ Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:39am

"the second you [get] a head shake....it looks bad when...."

Sounds inconsistent, no? It look bad when one official shakes his/her head at a partner's call.

CJP Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:02pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randa16 (Post 1029035)
I reversed the call and told him to stay the F out of my area before I get mad.

You reversed your partners call? Sounds suspicious. :cool:

BillyMac Sat Jan 19, 2019 03:06pm

Everybody In The Gym ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Randa16 (Post 1029035)
Nothing ticks me off more then my partner calling a foul or violation in my area.

You've never been unexpectedly straightlined?

Never missed one call in your primary (maybe an illegal screen) because there was a lot of physical action going on in another part of your primary?

Never missed a slight touch before a pass or shot heads out of bounds on your line?

And these happen when absolutely everybody in the gym except you sees the foul, or violation?

And if these happen, you don't ever accept, or even want, unsolicited help?

Never? Ever? Not even once a season?

thedewed Sat Jan 19, 2019 04:55pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1029042)
You've never been unexpectedly straightlined?

Never missed one call in your primary (maybe an illegal screen) because there was a lot of physical action going on in another part of your primary?

Never missed a slight touch before a pass or shot heads out of bounds on your line?

And these happen when absolutely everybody in the gym except you sees the foul, or violation?

And if these happen, you don't ever accept, or even want, unsolicited help?

Never? Ever? Not even once a season?

LOL. True, officiating is angles, you can't have a problem when straightlined and someone else comes and gets it right, or you shouldn't be officiating bball.

bob jenkins Sat Jan 19, 2019 08:31pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randa16 (Post 1029035)
Nothing ticks me off more then my partner calling a foul or violation in my area.

My pregame: Call in your area. Call in my area, too.

mattmets Sat Jan 19, 2019 09:45pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1029045)
My pregame: Call in your area. Call in my area, too.

I worked 6 games today in a tournament and after two of them one of my partners (who I've worked with a decent amount) apologized for coming in my area (T) as the C to get some contact I was straightlined or blocked out on. I told him I'm just going to ask if you are sure you got the call right. If you are I won't say another word. I'll only think about getting upset if you come in and take away a good non-call, otherwise we need to just get them right.

SD Referee Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:33pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randa16 (Post 1029035)
Nothing ticks me off more then my partner calling a foul or violation in my area. In high school games if you pull this crap the first time you get a loook, the second you a head shake and the third we are going to have a conversation you will not like at halftime or after the game. I still do youth games and that is a train wreck of officials who call outside their area. I had a partner in lead position call travel at half court one time, I reversed the call and told him to stay the F out of my area before I get mad. I don’t call other areas for 2 reasons, it’s your job and your area and second it looks bad when

Tough guy! You sound like a train wreck of an official!

LRZ Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:40pm

The Third Team?
 
Randa16, even assuming your territoriality is appropriate, your actions (head shaking, reversing a partner's call) can only make the situation worse. Save your anger for the locker room at half-time or post-game, away from the public eye.

Randa16 Tue Jan 22, 2019 09:11am

I have put in years at being a good ref. Do I miss calls? Yes a few a year but the last thing I need is some old guy trying to be super ref and not watch his area. The call I reversed was because he was way out of position, I was standing right there, it was a bad call and he is not going to make me look stupid. You all can not like it all you want but you know the kind of ref I am talking about.

Raymond Tue Jan 22, 2019 09:28am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randa16 (Post 1029112)
I have put in years at being a good ref. Do I miss calls? Yes a few a year but the last thing I need is some old guy trying to be super ref and not watch his area. The call I reversed was because he was way out of position, I was standing right there, it was a bad call and he is not going to make me look stupid. You all can not like it all you want but you know the kind of ref I am talking about.

Then you might want to move up to a level where you don't have to deal with that.

I'm still trying to envision this unpleasant conversation. Is it a conversation where you berate your partner and he just sits there and takes it?

SD Referee Tue Jan 22, 2019 09:51am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randa16 (Post 1029112)
I have put in years at being a good ref. Do I miss calls? Yes a few a year but the last thing I need is some old guy trying to be super ref and not watch his area. The call I reversed was because he was way out of position, I was standing right there, it was a bad call and he is not going to make me look stupid. You all can not like it all you want but you know the kind of ref I am talking about.

No good ref reverses a call like you were talking about. Make you look stupid? How about what you did to your partner?

JRutledge Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:24am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randa16 (Post 1029112)
I have put in years at being a good ref. Do I miss calls? Yes a few a year but the last thing I need is some old guy trying to be super ref and not watch his area. The call I reversed was because he was way out of position, I was standing right there, it was a bad call and he is not going to make me look stupid. You all can not like it all you want but you know the kind of ref I am talking about.

Well if you want to move up the ranks, ever, you will deal with "old guys" doing all kinds of things and calling all kinds of things and you better not every act that way towards them or you will have a short career. IJS.

Peace

hamnegger Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:34am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1028778)
I totally agree with most of your comments, I just do not think this is a foul. At least not one that stands out so much that all would agree. There are certainly calls I would suggest should be called even from that position, but this is not one of them IMO.

Peace

I really saw nothing much here either. This would, to me, not fit into the "a must come get".

hamnegger Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:39am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randa16 (Post 1029112)
I have put in years at being a good ref. Do I miss calls? Yes a few a year but the last thing I need is some old guy trying to be super ref and not watch his area. The call I reversed was because he was way out of position, I was standing right there, it was a bad call and he is not going to make me look stupid. You all can not like it all you want but you know the kind of ref I am talking about.

1. Only a few missed calls a year? Wow!
2. It is not about us not liking it but you have chosen to flat out violate a rule which states no official has the authority to change another officials ruling. You just took a mistake and compounded it.


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