My goal for every game is to be under 1.5 IC's per game and hopefully under 2.5 INC's.

l
o
l

By Whose Count ???
 

I do high school games and have done a little community College. I still do youth only because they are always short officials and I am friends with the guys who assigns games and he flips me extra money to cover. . High school no problems 95% of the time. Youth is a train wreck.

As long as you do Youth ball you will get "train wreck" partners. And any of those partners old enough to have teenagers of their own aren't going to sit around the locker room (or whatever changing area you have) while you berate them for calling in your area.

You will be lucky if they even care at all what you have to say at that level. They might go right back to what they are doing and might even call more in your area.

Peace

I think I may have had a partner just like that yesterday at a CYO tournament. No pregame conference whatsoever, he would call in my primary area with primary-timed whistles, he would rarely switch except for shooting fouls. He said that he had been officiating for 13 years, including varsity games, but with his lack of communication with me on the court and improper mechanics, I find it hard to believe him.

I learned that rec ball was much more fun when I just let my partner do whatever he wanted and filled in the rest. Ball watcher? Fine. I'll watch everything else.

I'm not working rec ball to give a clinic. I'm there for the Benjamins.


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Let me let you in on a little secret. No one cares about any other level other than varsity. Why? They do not have to. Those games are mostly for those that have a body.

Peace

Observations And Evaluations ...
 

While that may be true for CYO, AAU, recreation, and travel games here in my little corner of Connecticut, that's not true for board assigned interscholastic games of any level. If one is working a board assigned middle school, freshman, or junior varsity game, one is being evaluated, always by one's partner, but often by a member of our evaluation committee.

The new guys have to start somewhere, and the place to do it is in middle school, freshman, and junior varsity games. One is observed and evaluated in these games, and if one does well, one moves up to the big time.

If one does poorly in these low level games, one will never see the light of day in a varsity game.

Of course, when in Rome ...

Culture ???
 

ilyazhito: Are you 100% certain that you understand the "culture" of the assigner and the officials in this league?

I worked a Catholic middle school league for over thirty years where the assigner had very high expectations for his officials in some areas of the game. Always be on time, dress in full uniform (no sweats, no sneakers), enforce all fashion rules, manage the game (control the coaches), always hustle up and down the court. However, some mechanics were more relaxed. Switch when convenient, bounce the ball across the lane on front court endline throwins, etc. Pregames were never held, but post games, especially when working with new guys, were very important for educational purposes.

More than two thirds of the officials working in this league for this assigner were high school varsity officials, and about a third were state tournament officials. Outstanding officials, high expectations, but relaxed mechanics. That was the culture of this league.

As usual, you are missing my point. They hang championships up in the rafters or on the ceiling for those games? Do they get live TV coverage for those games on a regular basis? Is there a regular streaming live video of those games on the AAU website? Do they post scores of those games in the paper or on an independent media website?

And even with the point that new guys have to start somewhere, that does not mean everyone around it cares. This is often where veterans work games for the money or those that could never advance to a certain point. Most new guys I know have no desire to work rec ball the rest of their career. They work it to get noticed so they do not have to work that stuff much anymore. And there are veterans that do not do everything in those games because no one is going around taking games away because they will not switch. I do not think that is unique to any place. The reality is that if that was not the case, we would not hear all the stories about what some official did or how they tried to circumvent the rules or procedures because it was not important to them.

Peace

Promotion ...
 

There's a difference between "rec ball" and subvarsity interscholastic games assigned by one's high school assigner where one will be evaluated for promotion.

Guys that want to be promoted "care" about doing a good job in their subvarsity interscholastic games assigned by our high school assigner.

Here in my little corner of Connecticut, "rec ball" is like the Wild West, anything goes, show up in sweats, sneakers, never switch, don't signal correctly, walk up the court, etc., but when one works subvarsity interscholastic games assigned by our high school assigner, one will be evaluated for promotion, so one should dot all the "i's" and cross all the "t's", or one might be working subvarsity games for one's entire career.

If the official working the subvarsity interscholastic games doesn't care, their evaluating partner, or a member of our evaluation committee certainly cares.

Questions ???
 

Middle school games? Yes (I've recently learned this in my new life as subvarsity official) and yes.

Rec games? No and yes.

Just like high school varsity games? Absolutely not. Not even close.

That all depends. Many subvarsity games are there just to fill a body. They can get almost anyone to do them and most of the time are not trying to make people travel all over the world to take them. At least hear the promotion part takes place mostly in the summer and being evaluated at a camp. Working a subvarsity game at best might only get an evaluation if the varsity officials decide to watch their game. Otherwise, there might be veterans that will do those games to pick up some extra money.

I have had administrators say, "We do not care, it is the sophomore game" to my face before it is over. They do not want to be there longer than they have to be in many cases. They are not trying to delay the main event because the sophomores are running late or causing a problem with the varsity contest start. As a football official, they will cancel the prelim game often if there is weather or some other kind of event. They can play those games anytime as opposed to a varsity game that likely has a smaller window. I had two sophomore games canceled this year because of incoming weather. The weather was not even there or they thought was coming into the area.

And you are proving my point.

Well, that is a little different don't you think? Doesn't your state license or have a system of licensing officials? Big difference than an AAU type game that might not even be sanctioned by AAU itself and anyone with a pulse can do the local tournaments or assignments without any type of certification.

But do not miss the point. People are not trying to live at that level for more than other reasons than money. If someone has no desire to work a varsity game, you not giving them games because they did not switch on every foul? The way most sound around the country, you could not afford to be that strict.

Peace

Who Cares ???
 

I never spoke for any area other than mine.

Here in my little corner of Connecticut, there are only two things that gets one from the subvarsity list to the varsity list: in season observations and evaluations by a trained evaluation committee members, and in season partner evaluations. Period.

Varsity officials (unless one is on the trained evaluation committee) no longer evaluate junior varsity officials. Evaluations that count toward promotion are never done at summer camps.

Sure, fans, coaches, administrators, etc., don't "care" about subvarsity games, but officials that want to move up to varsity (granted, some don't want to move up) do "care", and those that observe and evaluate those officials do "care".

I certainly don't expect that to be the same in other areas, but that's the way it's done here. Here in my little corner of Connecticut, somebody does care about subvarsity interscholastic games assigned by our high school assigner.

Again, I was stating as a general rule, the caring factor of a varsity game is much higher by all involved than what happens in any other level of high school sports. There is nothing you are going to say that will change my stance on this when there are story after story of places across the country of officials not doing basic things they would have to do if they were working a varsity game. Let alone the things that coaches and administrations will not do at the lower levels as well. Heck, the people that work the table during a freshman game might be two high school kids that are on their phones more than they are watching the game. During a varsity game, the same table people are adults with years of experience and all the proper attire. All those uniform rules for example, we were told not to apply any of them for the most part by the IHSA itself. We do not use a lot of administrative rules because the goal is for the kids to play, not worry about if they have the proper uniform design or numbers in the book. Moving up is one thing, but when assignors are telling their staffs to not even worry about certain things because it is not a varsity game, that is all I need to know along with what people say does not happen when they work those games.

Peace

For me personally, every game is relevant for promotion, even if nobody is watching. This is because every game is an opportunity to work on good habits, judgement, communication, signals, or something else. This way, when I have a game when a paid evaluator does show up (or a subvarsity game when the varsity officials evaluate me and send ratings to the people responsible for evaluations and promotions), I already have a good base to work with. From then on, it is more about refining the little things and fine-tuning decisions than any major overhaul of mechanics,etc. This was why I was annoyed about my "veteran" partner, although I did not say anything to him (I know it was CYO games, and he would have blown me off if I had expressed my concerns) about reaching. Working the subvarsity games I had yesterday, though, was night and day because I had varsity officials as my partners.

In Board 12, officials have at least a minimal pregame conference for rec games about covering one's own area, league rule differences, and frequency of switching. Same thing usually applies to rec games I have with other organizations. Of course, MS and high school games have a more structured pregame conference format.

I try my darnedest to not reach in another official's primary area on calls, but if there is a double whistle, I will yield to the primary official. Only if there is no call on an obvious play, and I have waited for the other official to make a call (after his normal decision-making window ends), then will I make a call out of my primary area. I may call a foul outside my primary under those criteria, but I would not call a violation (travel, illegal dribble, etc.) outside my primary area, unless it involves a closely guarded count on a player leaving my area of coverage.

Expectations ...
 

Agree. But somebody still cares in some parts of the country. It's the only way to advance here, including doing what our assigner and the evaluators expect.

Well, some people care about things while others will never care about. That is not the point of my comments. But if you think everyone cares about those games equally and they are not getting the same accolades for being there, that would be silly to think that way. And again evaluators are not who we are talking about and even they are evaluating those games for different reasons. Summer games here mean more for those purposes because there are too many games in different places to see everyone.

Peace

But what about the parents and student-athletes? Regardless of the contest being sub-varsity, recreational league, CYO, or other, shouldn't the official give his/her best effort for the sake of making the contest a properly officiated one?

Don't Care ...
 

Never said that.

Please read my posts, I've already stated that some junior varsity officials don't care about moving up. Some are simply there to get their $63.05 and get home in time for dinner with their family. And there's nothing wrong with that.

No Man Is An Island (John Donne) ...
 

You've confused my discussion with JRutledge with my advice to you to figure out the culture of the various groups that you work with.

If you want to be a good partner you need to "fit in" rather than stick out like a sore thumb. If you force switches in a league where nobody switches you will build a reputation of being "that guy". Moving up the ladder is partly about having good partners, good colleagues, and good friends (yes, politics). It's better that you don't work these leagues than stick out like a square peg in a round hole. I gave up mens recreation early in my career. They wanted to put up with bullshit, I didn't, I didn't fit it, so I made myself unavailable for such games.

If I'm doing 3-4 rec games and my partner forces a switch on a non-shooting foul, we're gonna have a chat. Or if he doesn't "toss across." Anytime I'm forced to move just to fit a mechanics manual for no good reason....


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Assuming you have officials working that game who really care, as opposed to just being there to get a paycheck.

Around here officials working those levels are not really concerned about what people think about them. Not to say they're out there just screwing up games, but they are not out there trying to get better nor worrying about the nuances of officiating.

And I actually worked in adult men's rec league where one of the better players (he had a cup of tea in the NBA and played a lot of ball overseas and is now the head coach of a local high school) told me they didn't want guys like me working their games. They wanted rec league officials who were just good enough to keep the peace but didn't necessarily know all the rules or see all the sneaky stuff they did.

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In my area you have

Rec Ball - Kids pay $20 for a season, they pay $15 a game
GABL - Kids pay $100 plus for a season, they pay $30 a game
Tournament complex - not sure what it cost but running clock $20 a game

I did rec ball for one season because it was in my community and wanted to help out. Huge mistake by me. The sports director was clueless and knew nothing about basketball. The parents are just horrible, the talent level is horrible and I usually worked with a partner that had no clue. I quit after 3 weeks.

GABL and tournaments are ok. 20% are really good refs, 20% are train wrecks that amaze me they can blow a whistle and 60% are decent refs that I can tolerate for the most part even when they get confused on the possession arrow.

When I started 10 years ago it was more like 50%, 10% and 40% but we have seen a huge loss of officials over the years. The good refs who loved what they did and took pride are retiring and now we get paycheck refs. When you tell me you do high school and then have to be removed during your 6th grade game because you just gave the HC and 3 fans a T, then yelled at the stands to STFU I am scared for the future.

Are they working multiple games in a row? Are they working a portion of the fee they would normally get? All those things matter. If I am asked to work 4 games in a row at less than a 1/3 of what I would get paid for one game, then what effort do you want? Sorry, not happening. So if you expect anyone to switch on every foul or do all the little mechanic things that the book says, you are not paying me enough to guarantee me or others to do that. I will personally only do everything like that during a high school game. The other levels, be lucky if I even take a game. And that is why I don't. Not paid enough for the headache it brings.

Peace

While this might be the politically correct thing to say, let's be real.

If I am working a bunch of games in a row, you can bet I will be conserving energy and steps so I have something left for the last game.

People need to understand that the officials who take a bunch of wreck games are often not "certified" officials; if they are they're often the bottom of the barrel. Sometimes "good" officials who take those games have unrealistic expectations of who they will be working with. Wreck games are not high school games; you're likely going to come already dressed, have a minimal (if any) pregame, and be working with partners who are just bad. That is what you sign up for with these games. And the insistence on doing everything "by the book" in these settings is just over-the-top.

I quit wasting my time on these games when they weren't helping me get any better and when the BS I had to put up with outweighed the money.

I quit doing these games b/c of the bad habits I would fall into due to a lack of a 3rd official and for trying to compensate for weaker officials.

I'd love to stop doing rec games, but unfortunately some of the HS associations that I work for expect (or require) their members to do some amount of rec ball. If and when I do get a full varsity schedule, I'll request to limit my rec games to either fellow varsity officials, or newer officials, so I could help them improve. Otherwise, I'll just work for groups that don't require me to do rec ball.

"Required" to do wreck ball? Christ. I guess that's what happens when high school assigning groups take on those games, as well.

"Independent contractor" my ass. We have issues here, but I have never been "required" to do wreck ball as a condition of advancement.

This is how you lose officials as well. You require them to do things they might not have even signed up for. I am a high school official. I am only wanting to do high school games with my license. I do not care about AAU, wreak ball or some JH game that I do not need a license to do.

Peace

Yes, Board 134 requires that its members do at least 1 weekend day of rec ball a month (it says that they do this to give back to the membership). Board 12 and MBOA have many rec contracts as well, and they constantly ask officials to help take those games. Some of my partners on those games are good varsity veterans or up-and-comers, but others...

At least 2 of my groups don't require rec games, so that's a plus. I'm OK with working an occasional rec game with good veterans, or to help up-and-comers develop good habits, but I am NOT OK with partners, even veteran varsity officials, not communicating and using bad mechanics. This includes reaching into my primary area on plays that are not emergencies. Be right, be late, be needed.

Wow!!!!!!!! Some of you guys have to put up with some unbelievable crap from a power hunger assignor or association. I'm so glad we are truly treated as independent contractors here and don't have to anything other than high school........what we are licensed for. What an absolute joke to make officials do wreck ball.

Parks and Recreation ...
 

About thirty-five years ago my high school board assigned some recreation games, not many, but some. I believe that we were allowed to opt out of these games. Now we're 100% interscholastic games.

I opted to do them for a few years and learned a lot about game management that has helped me to this day. There's something to be said about learning under fire, not a lot, but something.

While I don't like the idea of what they're doing, being an independent contractor doesn't mean you get to write the contract. It means you can take it or not.

If the person offering the job wants to package some number of games together in some way, they have that right as much as you have the right to take the entire job or not.

Some associations do require rec ball (Board 134 requires members to work at least 1 weekend day of rec ball a month), but others ask constantly for officials to do rec assignments because they need contracts covered (Board 12, MBOA). Fortunately, there are associations that do not require rec ball, so I can work more games with those groups when I get a full varsity schedule. I might also request to limit my rec games in the other associations to varsity or up-and-coming partners, to maximize my enjoyment and the usefulness of these games.

I agree that rec ball is useless for officials' development, and even counterproductive, beyond a certain point in an official's career. The simplified, convenience mechanics used do not help officials working 2-person middle school and high school games, and the fact that rec games (except for some adult league games) use 2-person does not benefit officials who work 3-person games. Rec games may be useful for newer officials, to supplement middle school and subvarsity experience with additional game repetitions and situations, but I don't see a point for officials working those games other than to train younger/newer officials.

Officials who work rec games often develop bad habits that need to be un-learned for sanctioned scholastic games,such as ball-watching, needlessly calling outside one's primary area, not switching on fouls (or doing bump-and-run movements on violations), and not stopping the clock with the appropriate signal (or being aware of clock status in general). While some of these habits are understandable (young kids (up to 10U, maybe 12U) tend to converge around the ball in basketball and other sports), as most recreational games use a running clock (switching on fouls might waste limited playing time) that only stops for a limited set of circumstances (usually shooting fouls and timeouts), they have bad consequences for when the same officials do scholastic games (whether middle school or high school). Thus, officials need to be careful to be as situationally aware and use the same signals as in scholastic games, even when the signals may apparently be meaningless.

I also had a play similar to the OP in a boys varsity game yesterday. While it was a different foul (illegal use of hands, for hitting the shooter on the arm), I made a similar call in a similar situation to the OP (I was Center calling across the lane, just as the OP was). KIPP (White, the home team) was playing Maya Angelou (Red), and the game was in the 2nd quarter, KIPP leading by ~10 points when a White player drove to the basket from Trail's side. Red 3 hit the White player on his arm as White started his shooting motion. Trail was out of position, so he did not make a call. I paused to see if Lead would make a call (the play was in his primary area), and when neither of the other officials made the call, I called the foul. After the play was over and the free throws were attempted, Red 3 admitted that I made the right call.

Busy Hands Are Happy Hands ...
 

ilyazhito: I hope that you kept this in mind:

It is legal use of hands to accidentally hit the hand of the opponent when it is in contact with the ball. This includes holding, dribbling, passing, or even during a shot attempt. Striking a ball handler, or a shooter, on that player's hand (in contact with the ball) that is incidental to an attempt to play the ball is not a foul.

That contact was not incidental to an attempt to play the ball. It was illegal contact to a shooter's arm, obviously below the wrist.

If the defender was vertical and just happened to make contact with the shooter's hand/arm, I would have let it go, but the defender struck the shooter on the arm without striking the ball. The rule of thumb is contact to ball + body = play on, but contact to body + ball = foul. In this case, there was contact to body without contact to the ball, and the contact was illegal.

Why are you naming the participants? What did L say about your call?

If you put any value in a player telling you you made the right call, you have to put value in them telling you you blew it.

Let's Call The Whole Thing Off (Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers, 1937) …
 

Let's see, the part of the arm below the wrist? Let's call it the hand.

4-24-2: It is legal use of hands to reach to block or slap the ball
controlled by a dribbler or a player throwing for goal or a player holding it
and accidentally hitting the hand of the opponent when it is in contact with
the ball.

Potato, potahto.
Tomato, tomahto.
Illegal, legal.

All the same.

Right?

Anonymous ...
 

Too much specific information. Some really not needed. Maybe name dropping?

I believe that ilyazhito is an IAABO member. As a fellow IAABO member I should warn him to keep a low profile and try to remain anonymous on social media.

From IAABO International:

With the onslaught of social media (Facebook, LinkedIn etc.) there are many ways for officials to become controversial very innocently. Officials love to talk, I am sure you know the old saying "tell a ref tell the world". How often does the conversation between officials start with "I had this play" and then we continue with one upsmanship and "I had this play" and so on. We were always concerned when we were having an adult beverage in an establishment talking basketball, being heard by someone as we made comments about a coach, player or even rowdy fans. Why wouldn't we have the same concern today where, instead of being out in public making comments we now make them online? The danger again is that we do not know who views these comments, and we do not know what they will do with these comments.

My concern is that an errant comment made by an official can come back to haunt them, in fact most Division 1 conferences have added this clause to the officials contract. "The office must refrain from any public criticism of the conference, Conference staff, coaches, student athletes, and Conference athletic departments. This criticism includes communicating with the media, and other basketball officials, as well as any method of social or electronic media (Facebook, Twitter, Linkedin, email etc.). Any violation of this policy will result in disciplinary action being taken, which could include one or more of the following actions: private reprimand, suspension or termination".

This may filter down to the state athletic associations in the near future, thus the point of this article is to give our officials a heads up on what is happening in our officiating world. You just might want to give some thought to the above before you make that next "click".

With Bated Breath ...
 

Fred and Ginger are still waiting for a reply?

While we wait, sit back and enjoy some classic Fred and Ginger. Isn't Ginger pretty?

https://youtu.be/qRrw2hDjnl4

Ummm, on most shots, the hand is at the apex of the arm, making it ABOVE the wrist. If our young poster was referring to the hand, I'm pretty sure he would have said the hand. Must we make everything into an unnecessary debate followed by you quoting yourself to further a conversation point that no one other than is confused by?

Hand ...
 

Agree, on a shot the hand is above the wrist. Good point.

But, ilyazhito did say the hand.

I believe that ilyazhito may be confused, and may require a different interpretation than the one he has been using.

If the contact was on the arm, as he later stated, then my post is irrelevant.

He also mentioned the defender not striking the ball. One can legally strike the hand in contact with the ball and not ever contact the ball.

I'm sure that he'll be moseying along shortly to clarify his apparent confusion.

For all the crap he sometimes gets here, let's cut ilyazhito some slack, as he did say "the defender struck the shooter on the arm" and "Red 3 hit the White player on his arm" and "It was illegal contact to a shooter's arm."

I get what you are saying, but turning down those contracts means you don't ever advance or get games period. Am I right? That seems like the situation to me.

Why should anybody be required to do anything but high school games that they are licensed for? Sounds like the assignor is helping out the wreck leagues by requiring the high school officials to do junk games. Way too much power by one person.

So you simply ignored his 3 other comments that referenced the arm and the one statement that referenced below the wrist during the shooting motion?

And the fact that you made this reference, "Let's see, the part of the arm below the wrist? Let's call it the hand"? The purpose of that? Can't we ever just stay on point so that whatever can be learned from the conversation doesn't get lost in your boredom?

4-24-4 ...
 

That would be fine if he just said that he meant to say arm instead of hand, but he never did, nor did he edit his original post.

I still don't believe that he fully understands 4-24-2. But he should be by shortly to clarify.

I'm surprised that people seem to be arguing semantics, not necessarily the merits of the call that I made. It was on Trail's side of the lane, but still in an area where L, T, and C coverage could overlap. Lead had no call, but he was probably either screened or looking at lower bodies. I believe that I did the right thing by waiting for the T to make the call, followed by a cadence whistle and selling the call. What would y'all have done in this situation?

Well, I guess that depends on where you live and who you work for. I work for multiple people that assign other things and I almost never work games for them but high school or college for that matter. I get emails every day from some of these people asking for us to fill lower level games that are not high school games. I ignore the emails all the time. I am not working those games because I already have games or it is not worth it to leave the house for some JH game that I have no desire to work in the first place. But then again I work for multiple high school assignors, not one guy that assigns everything. So there is a difference in my situation than maybe this situation.

Peace

Happy Ending ... ...
 

Some quotes are for different plays, same game.

My original criticism could have easily been handled by, "I meant to say arm, not hand". End of story. But it's not too late, it can still have a happy ending.

The purpose of my comment was to clarify for all that (in layman's terms) the hand is considered to be a part of the ball.

It is legal use of hands to accidentally hit the hand of the opponent when it is in contact with the ball. This includes holding, dribbling, passing, or even during a shot attempt. Striking a ball handler, or a shooter, on that player's hand (in contact with the ball) that is incidental to an attempt to play the ball is not a foul.

I'll type slowly for youuuuuuuu.

He referenced the contact 5 different times. The first time, generically he typed "hand". The other 4 times he clearly indicated the contact was to the arm. So you cherry-picked one statement simply so you could post a Ginger Rogers video. That stuff gets annoying.

Closure ...
 

Don't care where you were, or how you sold the call.

End it now. Contact on hand? Or, contact on arm?

Say the right word and this will all go away.

Maybe he has you on "ignore" because of your propensity for off-topic and misleading posts, so he doesn't know that YOU need clarification. You made the nonsensical reference to "below the wrist" as meaning "the hand".

If you think something needs to be clarified, either clarify it yourself without misrepresenting the original quote or ask an on-point question without all the circular nonsense that makes some of your posts impossible to digest.

And please quit using the excuse that "somebody" needs clarification. Allow the adults in this forum to speak for themselves, we don't need an advocate.

Cherry Pick ...
 

It's pretty tough to cherry pick when there was only one cherry to pick in the original post. My criticism was valid then, got a somewhat confusing, highly detailed reply, then I cherry picked to get back to the original post, and I will change my criticism as soon as he says, "I meant to say hand".

Quoting Horace ...
 

You (not you meaning you, Raymond) don't know what you don't know.

I don't treat everyone here like their a 3rd grader who needs a teacher to guide them through the learning process. We may not all be scientists, but we are capable of learning and interpreting and questioning on our own.

YOU are the only one fixated on that one sentence. Anybody else here trying to learn about staying in or straying from their primary read his DETAILED description of the play, which consistently referenced contact to the arm.

Maybe he is not interested in YOU shoving YOUR teaching lesson down his throat. If YOU want to clarify for "those who don't know what they don't know", then write your clarification and move on. Instead we get the repetitive posts waiting for his answer (posts that are also disingenuous on your part since you type them in a manner pretending that you don't know the proper rule or verbiage).

Don't Know ...
 

Maybe it was a typo hiccup? Certainly acceptable. Or maybe he doesn't know that contact on the hand during a shot can, in some cases, be legal? Unacceptable for a varsity official.

If it's the former, I will withdraw my criticism.

If it's the later, we can further discuss this topic.

I don't know which it is? He can easily answer this, and put it to bed for good.

Or he can just lay low and keep me wondering. That's also certainly acceptable.

If you are truly concerned about those who don't know, you would clarify the rule with proper verbiage. But obsessing about one poster absorbing your lesson plan makes me doubt that is your true goal. You seem more intent of forcing him to answer the question the way you want it answered.

Again, how do you know he doesn't have you on "ignore"?

Sorry ...
 

Good point, I apologize to ilyazhito for my sarcasm (if he's reading my posts).

Polite ...
 

I did. Twice.

Some type of acknowledgment, or confirmation, not necessarily a thank you, or even an negative reply, a disagreement, would have been polite, certainly not needed, but polite.

I'm not a big fan of a passive aggressive style, sometimes I don't understand it, or don't even know that it's happening.

If anything, I'm always polite. Which is why I'm upset with myself at my recent sarcastic post. And to make it worse, I was quite proud of my witty post after clicking save. Again, I'm sorry.

Billy, I edited the OP to say arm. I meant "the part of the forearm closer to the wrist", but I don't know if people consider the area where forearm and wrist meet hand or arm. This is the officiating forum, not doctors or anatomy and physiology forum.

Hand / Part Of Ball ...
 

Sorry I criticized you and very sorry I used sarcasm. Not my best day on the Forum.

At least now nonofficials who may not be Forum members and who may have a question about hand/part of ball (layman's terms) may have a better chance of finding the answer when they use the Google to search.

https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.w...=0&w=300&h=300

At halftime, the Referee on the game (who was the T on the play in question) told me that the call was a good get. L said that he could not see the play.

If I blow a call, or make a mistake that could affect the game (I hand the ball to the thrower early on a throw-in) I will admit it and move on. I have rarely seen players admit that they have fouled or committed a violation, so it is noticeable (and remarkable) for me when it happens.

Krazy Kids ...
 

Last week, middle school game. My partner makes a foul call for a player that could have been in the act, or no shot, it was close, he called it in the act, and I silently agreed.

As he's reporting, I'm lining up the kids for the free throws, and ask the shooter, "You were shooting, right?".

I was 100% sure to get a positive reply.

The kid shrugs his shoulders.

Diogenes should have talked to this kid, it could have saved him a lot of time.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/lowres.jant...534239_low.jpg