Rich's area - Is it time to drop the 3-man officiating crew?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

Why do schools cry poor about 3-person then? If they can afford to pay 2 officials over 90 dollars each, there is no reason that they cannot pay 60 dollars each to a 3-person crew. $62 would be on the lower range of the varsity scale, but still an acceptable rate of pay for officials, assuming that there would be regular raises (The equivalent pay for 3-person JV crews would be $41). Thus, there is no reason for schools to cry poor, if they just divide the money 3 ways rather than 2.

No, no, 100 times no.

Officials shouldn't pay for adding a third official. That's just a terrible, umsustainable idea.

When my conference that I hire went to 3-person a few years ago, we paid the officials the exact same amount the 2 officials got the year before.


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[#olderthanilook]

Originally Posted by Rich

No, no, 100 times no.

Officials shouldn't pay for adding a third official. That's just a terrible, umsustainable idea.

When my conference that I hire went to 3-person a few years ago, we paid the officials the exact same amount the 2 officials got the year before.


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Absolutely agree with this. There MUST be premium attached to getting a 3 man varsity officiating crew at the varsity level. IMO, that value/cost should be MORE than a Fr/So/JV crew. That way, the expectations and level of commitment/accountability continue to be in place for all involved, and, as a result, the overall level of officiating and decorum is noticeably higher across the board.

In my area, Fr/So/JV games pay 2 man crew members between 45-55 per game. 3 man varsity crews (I don't know any schools in the metro and outlying areas that use 2 man), in the same area/conference, are paid between 60-80 per game.

[sdoebler]

Originally Posted by Rich

No, no, 100 times no.

Officials shouldn't pay for adding a third official. That's just a terrible, umsustainable idea.

When my conference that I hire went to 3-person a few years ago, we paid the officials the exact same amount the 2 officials got the year before.


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While I agree with you I don't know how you got this to fly with the schools. Our schools were and still are resistant to 3-man officiating simply due to the cost. We have some of the lowest fees in the country at $52 for a varsity 3-man game. $60 for varsity 2-man. There have been talks of strikes or flu days but nothing has come to fruition. I'm not sure what the solution is but there is a lot of frustration around fees in our state and association.

This maybe getting OT would be happy to start a new thread.

[LRZ]

Around the league where I work most of my games, we are 3-ref for varsity, and 2-ref for every level below. I've asked why we don't go to 3-ref for jv games, which are typically fast and furious, and we have enough officials to cover these games. Revenue isn't there, I've been told.

In recent years, there has been number of new, enormous buildings and facility upgrades throughout the league. It seems like every school district has to have two or three turf fields, including turf practice fields, and stadiums (with lights and new locker rooms), costing millions of dollars. Another $1-1.5K for third jv officials (we get $61 a game) would break the budget, apparently.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by LRZ

Around the league where I work most of my games, we are 3-ref for varsity, and 2-ref for every level below. I've asked why we don't go to 3-ref for jv games, which are typically fast and furious, and we have enough officials to cover these games. Revenue isn't there, I've been told.

In recent years, there has been number of new, enormous buildings and facility upgrades throughout the league. It seems like every school district has to have two or three turf fields, including turf practice fields, and stadiums (with lights and new locker rooms), costing millions of dollars. Another $1-1.5K for third jv officials (we get $61 a game) would break the budget, apparently.

And, frankly, I wish there was more courage to call districts out on this nonsense.

I worked a varsity football game in a brand new stadium that cost in excess of $8 million this past season and our 5-man crew got a whopping $55 each.

[#olderthanilook]

Originally Posted by LRZ

Around the league where I work most of my games, we are 3-ref for varsity, and 2-ref for every level below. I've asked why we don't go to 3-ref for jv games, which are typically fast and furious, and we have enough officials to cover these games. Revenue isn't there, I've been told.

In recent years, there has been number of new, enormous buildings and facility upgrades throughout the league. It seems like every school district has to have two or three turf fields, including turf practice fields, and stadiums (with lights and new locker rooms), costing millions of dollars. Another $1-1.5K for third jv officials (we get $61 a game) would break the budget, apparently.

Some of these awesome new facilities and upgrades/re-models have officials' rooms with showers.....but not hot water.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by sdoebler

While I agree with you I don't know how you got this to fly with the schools. Our schools were and still are resistant to 3-man officiating simply due to the cost. We have some of the lowest fees in the country at $52 for a varsity 3-man game. $60 for varsity 2-man. There have been talks of strikes or flu days but nothing has come to fruition. I'm not sure what the solution is but there is a lot of frustration around fees in our state and association.



This maybe getting OT would be happy to start a new thread.

It's because someone made a case that movng to 3-person was important and that we needed to be competitive with fees.

We're paying $66 this year, which is by no means great, but it's that amount if it's 2-person or 3-person.

There was a vocal minority of officials who said we should stay 2 and pay $90 or so each - now we know that the check is more important to them than anything else.


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[pfan1981]

Originally Posted by Rich

It's because someone made a case that movng to 3-person was important and that we needed to be competitive with fees.

We're paying $66 this year, which is by no means great, but it's that amount if it's 2-person or 3-person.

There was a vocal minority of officials who said we should stay 2 and pay $90 or so each - now we know that the check is more important to them than anything else.


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Rich, I am normally in total agreement with you on most things, but will have to agree to disagree here. I love refereeing basketball. However, if I get a contract more than 60+ miles away from home for $66....then I'm going to have some thinking to do. Is it worth time away from my young family to leave at 5pm and return at 10pm for just north of $10/hr?

I understand you are in a tough spot trying to keep officials and schools happy. I also appreciate you working hard to get your fees up in your part of the state.

In our neighborhood, we get paid $80 per game to work a near empty gymnasium and get $60 to work a game with hundreds of fans. That's the biggest problem. Those big schools can't pay what a small rural school can? Give me a break.

I hope you don't take offense to this Rich, I am one of your biggest fans on here and on Facebook as well.

pfan

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by pfan1981

...

In our neighborhood, we get paid $80 per game to work a near empty gymnasium and get $60 to work a game with hundreds of fans. That's the biggest problem. Those big schools can't pay what a small rural school can? Give me a break.
...

pfan

I know locally, the money made at the gate has nothing to do with the funds that are used to pay officials. You can fill a 10K arena full of paying fans and it would have no impact on what is available in the school budgets to pay officials.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by pfan1981

Rich, I am normally in total agreement with you on most things, but will have to agree to disagree here. I love refereeing basketball. However, if I get a contract more than 60+ miles away from home for $66....then I'm going to have some thinking to do. Is it worth time away from my young family to leave at 5pm and return at 10pm for just north of $10/hr?



I understand you are in a tough spot trying to keep officials and schools happy. I also appreciate you working hard to get your fees up in your part of the state.



In our neighborhood, we get paid $80 per game to work a near empty gymnasium and get $60 to work a game with hundreds of fans. That's the biggest problem. Those big schools can't pay what a small rural school can? Give me a break.



I hope you don't take offense to this Rich, I am one of your biggest fans on here and on Facebook as well.



pfan

I pay what others pay in the Madison area and thereabouts. I'm at least $1 more in most cases.

I can't compete with the $80 to $95 they pay "up north." I wish I could.

Right now I'm able to fill hoops schedules. When I can't......but we won't go 2-person. I had officials suggest we stay 2 and pay more and I won't do that. It's bad for the game.


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[#olderthanilook]

Originally Posted by Rich

It's because someone made a case that movng to 3-person was important and that we needed to be competitive with fees.

We're paying $66 this year, which is by no means great, but it's that amount if it's 2-person or 3-person.

There was a vocal minority of officials who said we should stay 2 and pay $90 or so each - now we know that the check is more important to them than anything else.

Well, we also know the majority of guys on this forum aren't "in it for the kids", so there's that.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by #olderthanilook

Well, we also know the majority of guys on this forum aren't "in it for the kids", so there's that.

I'm not in it for the kids. But I'm not going to ask for a 2-person game for $30 more, either.


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[ilyazhito]

Originally Posted by #olderthanilook

Well, we also know the majority of guys on this forum aren't "in it for the kids", so there's that.

Although "being in it for the kids" is a noble sentiment, I realize that I do not actually agree with that idea. College officials and professional officials are not "in it for the kids" by definition because the competitors in their games are adults. In addition, professional and (some) college officials have officiating as their main source of income, so any idealistic expressions such as the above are mere rationalizations.

Was Ed Hochuli really "in it for the kids" when he started his officiating career as a law student working Pop Warner games to make a few extra bucks? Did Joey Crawford or Zach Zarba start their basketball careers "for the kids"?

Some officials do want to give back to the athletes whose games that they officiate, but many officials are in the game for other reasons. Thus, "for the kids" is just a rationalization used to guilt-trip high school officials into accepting certain sacrifices that they would not otherwise want to make. College basketball went 3-person a long time ago, at least on the men's side, and shows no signs of there being a remote desire to change back to 2-person. Maybe this was because there was no false idealism in college basketball officiating.

Personally, although I do give high school and recreational games that I am assigned to maximum effort and attention possible, I am not in it "for the kids", because I look to pursue higher-level opportunities in officiating. This is because I have enjoyed my officiating experience so far, and wish to continue it for as long as I am able to run up and down a field/court.

[#olderthanilook]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

Some officials do want to give back to the athletes whose games that they officiate, but many officials are in the game for other reasons.

I'm "in it" for both of these reasons - give back to the kids/community and other (i.e. extra income, staying active, being around the game). TBH, though, I probably wouldn't do it for any reason if I wasn't getting compensated.

[ilyazhito]

Originally Posted by #olderthanilook

I'm "in it" for both of these reasons - give back to the kids/community and other (i.e. extra income, staying active, being around the game). TBH, though, I probably wouldn't do it for any reason if I wasn't getting compensated.

I would agree with you on that. Unless I'm doing Special Olympics or another event for charity, I would not do games for free. I might also ask a reduced fee for doing 3-person in a normally 2-person game (if there is a limited budget to pay for officials otherwise), but I would otherwise not work games for no fee. I would also choose to not work 2-person varsity games whenever possible, because 2 person is not an adequate system for covering varsity games.