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-   -   Small circle within center circle (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/104149-small-circle-within-center-circle.html)

njbell89 Tue Nov 20, 2018 03:25pm

Small circle within center circle
 
Is anyone familiar with why some basketball courts have a smaller circle (~2ft in diameter) within the center restraining circle? Is there a non-NFHS reason, perhaps?

LRZ Tue Nov 20, 2018 03:34pm

My memory may be faulty (and I don't have access to MTD's attic to look through his archives), but I seem to recall, years ago, the jumpers had to have one foot in the smaller circle.

crosscountry55 Tue Nov 20, 2018 03:41pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by LRZ (Post 1026273)
My memory may be faulty (and I don't have access to MTD's attic to look through his archives), but I seem to recall, years ago, the jumpers had to have one foot in the smaller circle.



I think that’s it. If you see this feature, it is a relic of a bygone era.


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Freddy Tue Nov 20, 2018 04:33pm

Other relics of a bygone era?
How 'bout: 28' marks, segmented semi-circle within the lanes completing the antiquated jump circles, other?









me

crosscountry55 Tue Nov 20, 2018 04:35pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freddy (Post 1026284)
Other relics of a bygone era?

How 'bout: 28' marks, segmented semi-circle within the lanes completing the antiquated jump circles, other?


This is where MTD and BillyMac enter the conversation and talk about the old narrow lane.



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Raymond Tue Nov 20, 2018 04:49pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freddy (Post 1026284)
Other relics of a bygone era?
How 'bout: 28' marks, segmented semi-circle within the lanes completing the antiquated jump circles, other?



me

Well, 28' marks are relevant in regards to bench area and coaching box. ;)

Freddy Tue Nov 20, 2018 04:54pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1026289)
Well, 28' marks are relevant in regards to bench area and coaching box. ;)

Perhaps, as a possible point of reference for any schools who don't lay down the obligatory line in the OOB area to designate the inward boundary of the coaching box.
And that's for courts 84' or longer. Those shorter can't use that as a point of reference, though I bet there's a lot of misinformed AD's thinking so.

Raymond Tue Nov 20, 2018 04:57pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freddy (Post 1026290)
Perhaps, as a possible point of reference for any schools who don't lay down the obligatory line in the OOB area to designate the inward boundary of the coaching box.
And that's for courts 84' or longer. Those shorter can't use that as a point of reference, though I bet there's a lot of misinformed AD's thinking so.

I avoid schools that don't have at least 84' of court.

BillyMac Tue Nov 20, 2018 05:37pm

Twenty-Eight Foot Hashmark ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by crosscountry55 (Post 1026286)
This is where MTD and BillyMac enter the conversation ...

The twenty-eight foot hashmark separated the midcourt from the forecourt. Ball handlers would get a new five second closely guarded dribbling count if they passed the hashmark going forward, thus allowing sixteen seconds of legal closely guarded control, four seconds holding in midcourt, four seconds dribbling in the midcourt, dribble past the hashmark and get a new four seconds dribbling, and then finish off with four seconds of holding.

My arm's getting tired just thinking about it.

The twenty-eight foot hashmark also had something to do with lack of action, but that's another story for another time.

BillyMac Tue Nov 20, 2018 05:46pm

Who's Calling Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Antiquated ???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Freddy (Post 1026284)
... segmented semi-circle within the lanes completing the antiquated jump circles.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.'s favorite lines on the court.

Three jump ball circles, center, and at each end of the court. And lots of jump balls back then. To start each quarter, and each overtime period. Plus, anytime we go to the alternating possession arrow today, we had a jump ball back then. One could have literally dozens of jump balls in a girls subvarsity game.

Yeah, it was like heaven for Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. back then.

If he had his way the alternating possession arrow would be thrown in the trash and burned to a crisp.

so cal lurker Tue Nov 20, 2018 06:02pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1026296)
One could have literally dozens of jump balls in a girls subvarsity game.
.

In my youth, I reffed middle-school/grammar school games (without training). . . my arm could be tired from all those jump balls in the girls' games . . .

BillyMac Tue Nov 20, 2018 06:11pm

Purple Girls Can't Jump ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by so cal lurker (Post 1026297)
...my arm could be tired from all those jump balls in the girls' games ...

And it's always difficult figuring out how high subvarsity girls can jump in order to toss the ball to an appropriate height.

LRZ Tue Nov 20, 2018 06:50pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1026295)
The twenty-eight foot hashmark also had something to do with lack of action, but that's another story for another time.

Been there, done that: https://forum.officiating.com/basket...endations.html, posts #16 and #21.

BillyMac Tue Nov 20, 2018 07:54pm

Memories Of The Way We Were ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by LRZ (Post 1026301)
Been there, done that: https://forum.officiating.com/basket...endations.html, posts #16 and #21.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LRZ (Post 1019558)
There was a time when courts had hashmarks along each side line. If a team held the ball beyond them and made no attempt to penetrate, and the defense sat back, we would, at some point, step in and tell the defense to come out and "play.".

Whichever team was behind, offense or defense, was responsible to "Play ball". Tied game, defense was responsible to "Play ball".

If instructed to "Play ball" the offense had to move the ball past the hashmarks. If the defense was responsible they had to initiate a five second closely guarded count.

Not sure, but one "Play ball" warning per team per quarter, technical foul after the warning.

This was the Pleistocene Epoch version of the shot clock.

https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.G...=0&w=239&h=171

LRZ Tue Nov 20, 2018 08:34pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1026304)
Whichever team was behind, offense or defense, was responsible to "Play ball". Tied game, defense was responsible to "Play ball".

That does jog my memory and sounds right. I am older than you (and MTD), so my memory lapses must be excused.

Freddy Tue Nov 20, 2018 08:48pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1026304)
Whichever team was behind, offense or defense, was responsible to "Play ball". Tied game, defense was responsible to "Play ball". If instructed to "Play ball" the offense had to move the ball past the hashmarks.

I distinctly recall this being called as often as possible during those 1-3/4 hour grade school games back in '76 when $5.00 was the generous going rate at the time.
Three of those games on a Friday night when there happened to be other things to do with classmates out on the town back at campus was pure punishment. But formative, in the long run, I guess. :)

Rich Ives Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:33pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by LRZ (Post 1026273)
My memory may be faulty (and I don't have access to MTD's attic to look through his archives), but I seem to recall, years ago, the jumpers had to have one foot in the smaller circle.

Both feet at one time. Then changed to one.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:51am

This thread has been a walk down memory lane.

MTD, Sr.

Nevadaref Wed Nov 21, 2018 05:06am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freddy (Post 1026284)
Other relics of a bygone era?
How 'bout: 28' marks, segmented semi-circle within the lanes completing the antiquated jump circles, other?

How 'bout:
The neutral zone marks, commonly called the blocks, along the sides of the FT lane, which used to separate the first two rebounders on each side prior to the rule change which eliminated the first lane space on each side nearest the endline.

billyu2 Wed Nov 21, 2018 07:50am

Arm up
 
Player committing a foul required to put hand up. Straight up!

BillyMac Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:42pm

Hackers (Before There Were Hackers) ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by billyu2 (Post 1026317)
Player committing a foul required to put hand up. Straight up!

I remember doing this in high school because I had to do it a lot. I remember one game in which I later discovered that I had nineteen points. I had fouled out with a few minutes to play. I was never a big scorer but this was the closest I ever came to twenty points.

I believe that it was sophomore or junior year that I alternated quarters with a teammate. I would always start, he would always finish the game. It was the only way our coach could insure that at least one of us would be available at the end of the game.

I actually used a similar tactic as a coach. During a league championship season I had two power forwards who were practically interchangeable, one a veteran, one a rookie. Both were great rebounders, and fierce defenders who could do a little scoring. I usually started the veteran, after thirty-two minutes it seemed that one always fouled out and the other always had three or four fouls.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Wed Nov 21, 2018 01:09pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by billyu2 (Post 1026317)
Player committing a foul required to put hand up. Straight up!


I remember this. This was the Rule when I played and for a number of years after I started officiating. The Rule was slightly modified after I started officiating to state the the Player was to raise only one arm and not two because some Players were raising two arms to so displeasure with the call and if a Player raised two arms it was a TF for UC..

MTD, Sr.

BillyMac Wed Nov 21, 2018 01:23pm

Still Relevant ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 1026314)
The neutral zone marks, commonly called the blocks ...

Still relevant. That separates the first rebounder from where the lead official stands between two free throws in a lot of high school subvarsity games.

I already know, I'm a baaaaad boy! (with apologies to Lou Costello).

http://www.myvirtualofficialsassociation.com/?p=1104

Note: 2018-2019 IAABO Manual Revisions: Free Throw Coverage - Lead Official: Take a position that allows the official to observe the players in the first lane space on the nearer lane line and in the three spaces on the farther lane line.
(Replaces: Free Throw Coverage - Lead Official: Back out of the free throw lane taking a position approximately four feet from nearer free throw lane line and off the court near the end line.)

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4823/...7a83ff0c_m.jpg

crosscountry55 Wed Nov 21, 2018 02:28pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 1026314)
How 'bout:

The neutral zone marks, commonly called the blocks, along the sides of the FT lane, which used to separate the first two rebounders on each side prior to the rule change which eliminated the first lane space on each side nearest the endline.


I have often wondered why the blocks are still in the court diagram, and thus why new paint jobs continue to include them. They are completely meaningless because they no longer separate anything. The lower part of the modern 1st space could just as well be a 2” hash mark like every other space mark.

I guess the reason this hasn’t changed is one of pure nostalgia. There must be something romantic about “the blocks” on a basketball court. But they serve no modern purpose.


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BillyMac Wed Nov 21, 2018 02:36pm

Stupid NFHS ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by crosscountry55 (Post 1026346)
I have often wondered why the blocks are still in the court diagram ... be a 2” hash mark like every other space mark.

The NFHS 2018-19 Basketball Court Diagram actually doesn't show a neutral block and instead shows a two inch wide hashmark (with no hashmark three feet below that). However, the description that accompanies the diagram still states: All lines shall be two inches wide (neutral zones excluded).

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Wed Nov 21, 2018 03:34pm

Lack of Sufficient Action Rule.
 
Regarding the Hash Marks 28 feet from each End Line and the Lack of Sufficient Action Rule.

Situation #1:

Team A is behind in the score and has Control of the Ball in its Midcourt Area (between the Hash Marks and the Division Line). Team B is not required to come into the Midcourt Area and play defense. (NOTE: Notice that I did not use the term Closely Guarded because even though the CG Rule was adopted while the LSA Rule was still a Rule, CG is not a requirement for the Defense.)

If Team A Holds (A1 Holds or Dribbles the Ball or Team A Passes the Ball between Players in the MCA) for ten seconds while Team B does not play defense in Team A's MCA The Train (Two-Person or Three-Person Crew) shall Warn Team A by moving off of the Side Line into the Team A's MCA, point toward Team A's Basket and announce to Team A to "play".

As long has Team B does not come out to play defense in the MCA Team A has ten seconds (later the Rule was changed five seconds) to advance the Ball from its MCA to its Front Court Area (between the Hash Marks and the End Line). If Team A does not it shall be charged with a TF charged to Team A.


Situation #2:

The score is tied or Team B is behind in the score and Team A has Control of the Ball in its MCA. Team A is not required to advance the Ball from its MCA into its FCA but if Team B remains in Team A's FCA for ten seconds the Trail shall Warn Team B by moving off of the Side Line into Team A's MCA, point toward Team B's Basket and announce to Team B to "play".

As long has Team A Holds the Ball in its MCA the defense has ten seconds (later five seconds) to move into Team A's MCA and play defense. If Team B does not it shall be charged with a TF.


A Team only receives one LSA Warning per game and it does not matter if the Warning was given while the Team was on Offense or Defense. The Warning applies to all subsequent infractions of the LSA Rule whether the Infraction occurs while the Team is on Offense or Defense.

I gave numerous Warnings in my career but I do not ever having a Team fail to heed the Warning and receive a TF.

MTD, Sr.

BillyMac Wed Nov 21, 2018 03:43pm

Clarification ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. (Post 1026356)
A Team only receives one LSA Warning per game and it does not matter if the Warning was given while the Team was on Offense or Defense. The Warning applies to all subsequent infractions of the LSA Rule whether the Infraction occurs while the Team is on Offense or Defense.

Thanks for the clarification Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I hope that it wasn't too cold in your attic.

Happy Thanksgiving.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Wed Nov 21, 2018 03:50pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1026357)
Thanks for the clarification Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I hope that it wasn't too cold in your attic.

Happy Thanksgiving.


Bill:

I never went up into the attic. I wrote it all from memory because I do not have access to my attic at the moment, and there is a very faint voice in the back of my head (actually there are a lot of voices in my head, :p) that is telling me that the Warning is one per either Quarter or Half, not the Game.

MTD, Sr.

BillyMac Wed Nov 21, 2018 03:57pm

Xanax ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. (Post 1026358)
... there is a very faint voice in the back of my head (actually there are a lot of voices in my head ...

Yeah, I have those voices in my head too, that's why my psychiatrist gives me huge doses of Xanax.

Now, where are my car keys.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/lowres.cart...on1773_low.jpg

DrPete Wed Nov 21, 2018 03:58pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freddy (Post 1026284)
Other relics of a bygone era?
How 'bout: 28' marks, segmented semi-circle within the lanes completing the antiquated jump circles, other?
me

We used to administer jump balls at both ends of the court at the free throw lines for held balls. That's why part of the definition of when a jump ball ends includes touching the basket or backboard.

4-28-2 The jump ball begins when the ball leaves the official’s hand(s) and ends when the touched ball contacts a non-jumper, an official, the floor, a basket or backboard.

They could probably remove those words now as it is pretty unlikely that a jump ball tip is going to hit the ring or backboard from midcourt.

BillyMac Wed Nov 21, 2018 04:05pm

Tap The Ball Into The Basket ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DrPete (Post 1026360)
We used to administer jump balls at both ends of the court at the free throw lines for held balls. That's why part of the definition of when a jump ball ends includes touching the basket or backboard.

Back then, during jump ball mismatches at the free throw line, I had jumpers try to tap the ball into the basket. Never had a player successfully do it but they tried.

Posts like this are probably making Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. tear up.

Hey Mark T. DeNucci, Sr., there's no crying in basketball (with apologies to Tom Hanks).

BillyMac Wed Nov 21, 2018 04:16pm

Neutral Zones ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1026348)
The NFHS 2018-19 Basketball Court Diagram actually doesn't show a neutral block and instead shows a two inch wide hashmark (with no hashmark three feet below that). However, the description that accompanies the diagram still states: All lines shall be two inches wide (neutral zones excluded).

Most recent NFHS Basketball Court Diagram with one foot wide neutral zones is 2012-2013.

Most recent NFHS Basketball Court Diagram with two inch wide hashmarks three feet below the neutral zones is 2007-08.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Wed Nov 21, 2018 08:06pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1026365)
Most recent NFHS Basketball Court Diagram with one foot wide neutral zones is 2012-2013.

Most recent NFHS Basketball Court Diagram with two inch wide hashmarks three feet below the neutral zones is 2007-08.



Actually, the most recent (2017-18) NFNS Basketball Court Diagram does not show the Neutral Zone Blocks. It shows the two inch wide hash marks delineating the three Lane Spaces on each side of the Free Throw Lane, which the first lane space starting 7'-00" from the End Line.

But I can remember the pre Three-Point FG Era when the first markings on the FT Lane measured from the End Line were the Neutral Zone Blocks. The NZ Blocks were 7'-00" from the End Line. The first lane space was 3'-00" wide measured from the NZ Block toward the End Line. When I played there were two, and then after I started officiating there were three more marked lane spaces. BUT, unmarked lane spaces, 3'-00" wide and 3'-00" deep, continued along the FT Lane and around the outside of the FT Circle.

MTD, Sr.

griblets Wed Nov 28, 2018 04:35pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1026289)
Well, 28' marks are relevant in regards to bench area and coaching box. ;)

Though currently marked off the court, they used to be marked on the court.


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