The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 21, 2018, 10:54pm
Administrator
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Toledo, Ohio, U.S.A.
Posts: 7,858
USA Basketball Recommendations.

I read this article on USAToday.com. USA Basketball makes some very good recommendations.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...ock/441134002/

MTD, Sr.
__________________
Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Ohio Assn. of Basketball Officials
International Assn. of Approved Bkb. Officials
Ohio High School Athletic Association
Toledo, Ohio
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 22, 2018, 09:41am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 11
Some very good: smaller basketball, lower hoop, no 3's, no zone all for younger kids (11 yo and younger)

Some I don't care for: Adoption of FIBA rules for HS, 24 second shot clock for HS. (too short. I would advocate for 30 or 35 seconds)
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 22, 2018, 10:57am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 294
Good suggestions overall. I think that a shot clock needs to be common than it is today. It was touched on a bit at the end in terms of cost, I haven't done any research but my guess is that baskets in which the height can be adjusted would bear a larger cost for facilities. Most likely difficult for smaller gyms or schools. I think that the shot clock usage also is hindered by costs, that is our states excuse every year.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 22, 2018, 11:00am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: A little east of there.
Posts: 650
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdoebler View Post
Good suggestions overall. I think that a shot clock needs to be common than it is today. It was touched on a bit at the end in terms of cost, I haven't done any research but my guess is that baskets in which the height can be adjusted would bear a larger cost for facilities. Most likely difficult for smaller gyms or schools. I think that the shot clock usage also is hindered by costs, that is our states excuse every year.
I would think it would be a pain to adequately staff the table with someone that knows and consistently runs a shot clock correctly.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 22, 2018, 11:24am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 731
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdoebler View Post
Good suggestions overall. I think that a shot clock needs to be common than it is today. It was touched on a bit at the end in terms of cost, I haven't done any research but my guess is that baskets in which the height can be adjusted would bear a larger cost for facilities. Most likely difficult for smaller gyms or schools. I think that the shot clock usage also is hindered by costs, that is our states excuse every year.
There are clip on hoops that attach to the 10' hoops. My kids played on them at the Y when they were little.

Yes, that adds costs, but I think it is a huge value. With a 10' hoop, young kids are throwing the ball, not shooting.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 22, 2018, 12:37pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 87
personally, I think the shot clock ruins high school basketball. It takes a lot of strategy out of the game. No shot clock emphasizes ball control and free throw shooting. 2 areas that are disappearing from the game.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 22, 2018, 12:54pm
LRZ LRZ is offline
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: SE PA
Posts: 767
HS shot clocks and kiddie-height baskets/smaller basketballs are very different issues.

I like the idea of lower baskets and smaller basketballs for little kids. I've ref'ed enough games with scores like 12-4, and making it easier to shoot and score would make for better skills development and thus better games, imo.

Shot clocks seem to me a solution in search of a problem. Nothing wrong with basketball being a game of tactics and strategy. Spread offense, running the clock? Learn to trap, force turnovers.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 22, 2018, 12:58pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 87
Could not agree with LRZ more. Do not change the essence of the game. Make the changes that will instill proper mechanics and promote playing the game fundamentally.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 22, 2018, 02:27pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Rockville,MD
Posts: 897
Quote:
Originally Posted by LRZ View Post
HS shot clocks and kiddie-height baskets/smaller basketballs are very different issues.

I like the idea of lower baskets and smaller basketballs for little kids. I've ref'ed enough games with scores like 12-4, and making it easier to shoot and score would make for better skills development and thus better games, imo.

Shot clocks seem to me a solution in search of a problem. Nothing wrong with basketball being a game of tactics and strategy. Spread offense, running the clock? Learn to trap, force turnovers.
Agree on the lower baskets and smaller balls.

With all due respect, I disagree on shot clocks. I believe that a shot clock SHOULD be adopted, and not for the strategic reasons that many coaches want it for. A shot clock should reduce deliberate (note: not intentional, because that is a specific term in the rules) fouls at the end of the game, because fouling actually creates a disadvantage for the fouling team. Fouling does stop the clock, but the shot clock will reset, giving the offense a new possession and a better chance to run out the shot (or game, depending on time remaining) clock.

If teams do not foul near the end of the game, we as officials do not have to guess on which deliberate fouls to rule as intentional fouls, and which deliberate fouls to rule as common fouls. This will eliminate the need for NFHS to constantly put intentional fouls as a point of emphasis every year, because intentional fouls would then only happen in excessive contact/dangerous play situations, or if a player did not try to play the ball. In addition, fewer fouls would mean a safer game, because players who are not fouled will not be as likely to retaliate or talk trash to other players. Officials' jobs would be easier, because they will not have to rule every touch as a foul in the last few minutes, as is currently the accepted practice in non-shot clock games.

I may have limited experience as a basketball official (3 years overall, 1 season at the high school sub-varsity level), but I have worked games both with and without the shot clock, and have noticed that teams who play with a shot clock play basketball throughout all 32 minutes of the game, instead of just for 28 minutes. I have also noticed fewer deliberate fouls with a shot clock than without a shot clock in my games, whether in boys or girls games, whether in urban public school games or private school games.

A 30-second shot clock would be the easiest to use for high school games, because a visible 10-second count would not be required (if the official sees that the ball is still in the backcourt with 20 seconds on the shot clock, there is a violation) while the shot clock is on. This would free the official to concentrate on a wider area of the court in transition. This is why I would recommend a 30-second shot clock for high school play. If high school chose to go with a 24-second shot clock, then a visual count would be needed, because the FIBA/NBA backcourt count is 8 seconds, not 10.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 22, 2018, 02:41pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the offseason.
Posts: 12,122
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
A 30-second shot clock would be the easiest to use for high school games, because a visible 10-second count would not be required (if the official sees that the ball is still in the backcourt with 20 seconds on the shot clock, there is a violation) while the shot clock is on. This would free the official to concentrate on a wider area of the court in transition. This is why I would recommend a 30-second shot clock for high school play. If high school chose to go with a 24-second shot clock, then a visual count would be needed, because the FIBA/NBA backcourt count is 8 seconds, not 10.
Why would it matter? 24 second clock, the violation occurs at 14 (or 16 if you have an 8 second count). Regardless of the starting point of the clock and the length of the count, I'd hope that most officials would be able to recognize whatever time it is that creates the violation.

That said, I think 30 is way too short for many HS games. 30 would be fine for upper level varsity, but a lot of teams just don't have the skill to make it a good game with a 30 second clock. It would be a game of turnovers and desperation heaves/airballs. For HS, 40 or 45 seconds would be about right for ALL games.
__________________
Owner/Developer of RefTown.com
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 22, 2018, 02:49pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Virginia
Posts: 546
Interesting that they propose introducing the shot clock at the same time (Age 12) where they propose allowing zone defense and 3-point shooting.

Personally I don't see much need for a shot clock before high school, but I'm 100% for the other recommendations. Having a shorter basket/smaller ball for the young kids helps develop better form on their shots.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 22, 2018, 02:59pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 294
I will say that I used to be in the realm of not wanting a shot clock as that is how it worked in when I played ball in high school. Starting to work some higher level tournaments with teams from different states my view has drastically changed. The high school game needs a shot clock. I don't know how many games you have done where the stalling starts in the 2nd or 3rd quarter but I get one or two each year and it is brutal.

Additionally, someone mentioned end of the game fouling. While this is obviously part of the game it is so much less prevalent with a shot clock. 45 seconds left down by 2 without the ball and with a 30 second shot clock. Now the team has to step up and play great defense without fouling, really makes the game better.

In terms of how many seconds for high school I would have to look at some of the statistics that take place and what effect 35 to 30 did to the game. Speaking to Camerons point about needing it to be 40-45 seconds, I understand where you are coming from and can't say I completely disagree. However, those teams that would make those desperation shots and run out of time frequently often times in my experience can't possess the ball for 30-35 seconds let alone 40-45 which is why I would lean toward 30-35. I think that a review of studies done in college and states with shot clocks would provide a great resource for making the decision.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 22, 2018, 03:12pm
Rich's Avatar
Get away from me, Steve.
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 15,737
As an official, I couldn't possibly care -- as long as we can use the clock to count the 10 seconds in the backcourt. Not having to count that in HS games would make the shot clock worth it....to me as an official, that is.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 22, 2018, 03:30pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 731
CA uses 35 (at least for boys--I have a vague sense that girls might be 30, and I believe they have used the shot clock longer than the boys). The 35 seems about right to me--certainly doesn't need to be longer from what I've seen (though my son's league is one of the better leagues, so I can't speak to lower level play). I'm not sure if it is universally used below varsity or is league by league.

But I'm pretty sure they don't let the refs use the shot clock for back court count.
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 22, 2018, 03:59pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 3,505
Quote:
Originally Posted by LRZ View Post
HS shot clocks and kiddie-height baskets/smaller basketballs are very different issues.

I like the idea of lower baskets and smaller basketballs for little kids. I've ref'ed enough games with scores like 12-4, and making it easier to shoot and score would make for better skills development and thus better games, imo.

Shot clocks seem to me a solution in search of a problem. Nothing wrong with basketball being a game of tactics and strategy. Spread offense, running the clock? Learn to trap, force turnovers.
I have played and reffed in both shot-clock and non-shot clock states. If you think shot clocks aren't needed you are about 30 years behind the time. Varsity games need 35 and fresh/jv need about 40. You can still spread the offense and play basketball. But most of this is so dated it's scary.
__________________
in OS I trust
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Shoe Recommendations kblehman Basketball 39 Wed Feb 13, 2008 07:40pm
Shoe recommendations?? vawils Basketball 5 Sun Nov 27, 2005 12:24pm
Shoe Recommendations 5 sport ref Football 9 Thu Jul 10, 2003 04:40am
Jacket recommendations DownTownTonyBrown Baseball 5 Fri Apr 11, 2003 02:36pm
Camp Recommendations MzLadyRef Basketball 2 Mon Mar 31, 2003 10:30pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:51am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1