Techincal fouls

Originally posted by oc
Looking back there was only once where a coach really deserved it-but since I kicked the call I just gave him a warning (and he apologized after the game).

This here is something all officials should take a look at and think about before calling a T. It doesn't matter if it kids, high school, college or pros. Take a look at this statement. Notice that the coach "apologized after the game".

I've never T'ed anyone up and I had chances. Doing men's college fraternity games is very physical. I had one player who complained about getting fouled then would foul hard. He spent the last 15 seconds of the game clapping in my face. Now let me ask you these questions.
1. What good would it have done to T him up?
2. Would I have had control the next time I did either of those teams?
3. Would the player have settled down his play?

Answers:
1. None, no good whatsoever. Because
2. I would not have had control because other officials who did their games never had control of those games and most ended in fights, and
3. No, he would've continued to take a run at guys.

But because I didn't ring him up in a game where the result didn't matter (10-point game), he apologized to me after the game and before the next. He played much better and the "goon" was no longer.

So think, do I really need to ring a guy up? The only time I'll ever T a guy up is if an assault occurs or if anyone screams a word you can't say on Nickelodeon.

[rainmaker]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sportsannouncing
[B]

Originally posted by oc
Doing men's college fraternity games is very physical.

I think it depends a lot on the context of the game. I'm sure you let stuff go that I could never ignore, but that's because we're in very different settings. Where you are, you can maintain control your way. Where oc and I are working the expectations are much different, and we are going to call it much tighter. I'm not criticizing you, at all, but I do want others who read this board to realize that the standards are different in different places, and at different levels.

[mick]

Originally posted by sportsannouncing
The only time I'll ever T a guy up is if an assault occurs or if anyone screams a word you can't say on Nickelodeon.

sportsannouncing,

Many of us avoid the "T". The overiding philosophy on this board is to "T" if it'll make the game better.

It took me 12 years to "T" a coach. You gave one instance of not issuing a "T" and that it worked. Fine. There are times when issuing a "T" works as per your questions #2 and #3.

There is much peer pressure on college frat game officials to avoid calling "T", but if your name was Dexter, you will have outgrown that problem a long time ago.

mick

I do understand that situations are different in other places. What I am saying is that the frat-ball is more physical than any UNC/NC State, Maryland/Duke game you get.

I call it tight, I call all games tight. I've seen too many loose referees lose control after two minutes. I've called intentional fouls 10 seconds into games because it was an intentional foul.

Player: "How is that intentional?"
Me: "Were you trying to foul him?"
Player: "Yes"

Still wanted to know why I called it intentional but when a player going up for a layup is pushed in the back, it's intentional whether it's the NBA, NCAA or men's adult league.

What I am saying is think before you "T". You'd be surprised by how much better you can control games later on down the line.

Originally posted by mick
It took me 12 years to "T" a coach. You gave one instance of not issuing a "T" and that it worked. Fine. There are times when issuing a "T" works as per your questions #2 and #3.

There is much peer pressure on college frat game officials to avoid calling "T", but if your name was Dexter, you will have outgrown that problem a long time ago.[/B]

Mick,

I'm glad to finally have found a place where officials are avoiding the T. The problem lingers though from those who do like to call it that aren't here. That "T" situation is one of many that's happened to me and one of hundreds I've seen with other officials.

In the frat games, I had no ties to any of the teams and I knew the rules/positioning better than anyone (including the head ref) which is why I was there. There was also the peer pressure and I have no problem telling a player to his face that he should settle down. I just wish those of us out there would find a way to convey the message that a 'T' doesn't mean you are a man and that "showing up the official" is really a myth.

BTW-This is good to do if a coach is upset and drops the ball instead of handing it to you. Just look at him, smile and say, "That was pretty funny". Turn and go back to the game. The spotlight is now back on the coach who can't turn around because he's embarassed. He wanted the 'T', he didn't get it, now he's embarassed for trying to make the referee look bad. He wont try that stuff again and even tells stories about the time he himself looked bad to a referee.

[mick]

Originally posted by sportsannouncing


BTW-This is good to do if a coach is upset and drops the ball instead of handing it to you. Just look at him, smile and say, "That was pretty funny". Turn and go back to the game. The spotlight is now back on the coach who can't turn around because he's embarassed. He wanted the 'T', he didn't get it, now he's embarassed for trying to make the referee look bad. He wont try that stuff again and even tells stories about the time he himself looked bad to a referee.

sportsannouncing,
My guess is that you have six of one and 1/2-dozen of another on that one.
For each person that sees the coach as being assinine, you have another wondering why the official didn't take care of bidness.

Over the years, with the help of officials on this forum, I have come to the conclusion the the technical foul is not the Grand mal of all fouls, but that it is just another foul issued, in many instances, by a calm professional in the course of maintaing control of a game.

The technical foul is over-rated by many fans, players and coaches. Shucks they get to have two of 'em before they become ineligible! They are not a big deal to avoid, but they are a tool to be used for decorum against travesty.

And technical fouls are earned by the participants. We try to talk to those participants, to ease their pain. How many times does an official try to avoid calling the technical compared to trying to avoid calling holding, pushing, or hands? They earn technical fouls; they ask for them. We reward their actions.

Anyway, once I became comfortable with that mindset, they are for me just another tool to use.

mick



[Edited by mick on Oct 13th, 2003 at 01:51 PM]

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by mick
[/B]

Over the years, with the help of officials on this forum, I have come to the conclusion the the technical foul is not the Grand mal of all fouls, but that it is just another foul issued, in many instances, by a calm professional in the course of maintaing control of a game.

The technical foul is over-rated by many fans, players and coaches. Shucks they get to have two of 'em before they become ineligible! They are not a big deal to avoid, but they are a tool to be used for decorum against travesty.

And technical fouls are earned by the participants. We try to talk to those participants, to ease their pain. How many times does an official try to avoid calling the technical compared to trying to avoid calling holding, pushing, or hands? They earn technical fouls; they ask for them. We reward their actions.

Anyway, once I became comfortable with that mindset, they are for me just another tool to use.

[/B][/QUOTE]Just an excellent post,imo!! Couldn't agree more.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by mick
If a coach is wondering outside Michigan's dinky 6'0" box, I may say:

That's a big box tonight, eh?

Is this for games with visiting Canadian teams? :-p

[mick]

Originally posted by Mark Dexter

Is this for games with visiting Canadian teams? :-p

Nope. Those are much larger boxes cuz they are sometimes filled with several people, ...and you need a place to put those crooked sticks.

[oc]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sportsannouncing
[B]

I've never T'ed anyone up and I had chances. Doing men's college fraternity games is very physical. I had one player who complained about getting fouled then would foul hard. He spent the last 15 seconds of the game clapping in my face. Now let me ask you these questions.
1. What good would it have done to T him up?


Answers:
1. None, no good whatsoever. Because

-Although I have not given many T's I feel the need for it to be used. Now that I have been a ref a bit I am embarrassed to admit that when I was a coach I was a whiner. Quite often when I didn't like a call I would chirp in my little useless opinion. In fact I would voice my opinion on most calls. I did not go on and on-- just a couple of seconds each time enough to be heard. However embarrased I am to admit that I think it is also partially the refs fault for allowing me to do that. We usually had the same group of refs who were good guys but during the game I would ride them. I never got abusive, never used foul language and consequently never got a T. In fact I never even got any warnings -except once from a different ref we had never had before. He warned me and I shut up. --Looking back our usual refs allowed me to ride them-I knew what I could get away with and I did. I was a jerk sometimes-and that is my fault- but if they warned me or T'd me just once I would have shut up.

Now one of the coaches I may ref next year is my former assistant. He is now the V boys coach at a rival school. As I kind of trained him and he was reffed by the same guys that allowed me to whine he is now a whiner. So how do you deal with coaches like I was? Once you warned them to stop chirping do you T them next time they open their mouth? I am enclided to let it go if they shut up for awhile after the warning-but worried that weakens the warning if they can start whining again 5-10 minutes later.

[Edited by oc on Oct 14th, 2003 at 12:08 AM]

[canuckrefguy]

Originally posted by sportsannouncing
I had one player who complained about getting fouled then would foul hard. He spent the last 15 seconds of the game clapping in my face. Now let me ask you these questions.
1. What good would it have done to T him up?
2. Would I have had control the next time I did either of those teams?
3. Would the player have settled down his play?

Answers:
1. None, no good whatsoever. Because
2. I would not have had control because other officials who did their games never had control of those games and most ended in fights, and
3. No, he would've continued to take a run at guys.

But because I didn't ring him up in a game where the result didn't matter (10-point game), he apologized to me after the game and before the next. He played much better and the "goon" was no longer.

So think, do I really need to ring a guy up? The only time I'll ever T a guy up is if an assault occurs or if anyone screams a word you can't say on Nickelodeon.

So, basically, you're just too chickens*** to do the dirty work and T someone up when it's necessary.

T's are a last resort, but they are occasionally necessary. If you don't have the nerve, you don't belong out there.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by canuckrefguy
So, basically, you're just too chickens*** to do the dirty work and T someone up when it's necessary.

I was gonna say it a little nicer than that, but that was my thought, too. Somebody stands still and claps in your face? Bang-o!

[oc]

Originally posted by sportsannouncing

This here is something all officials should take a look at and think about before calling a T. It doesn't matter if it kids, high school, college or pros. Take a look at this statement. Notice that the coach "apologized after the game".

I've never T'ed anyone up and I had chances. Doing men's college fraternity games is very physical. I had one player who complained about getting fouled then would foul hard. He spent the last 15 seconds of the game clapping in my face. Now let me ask you these questions.
1. What good would it have done to T him up?
2. Would I have had control the next time I did either of those teams?
3. Would the player have settled down his play?

Answers:
1. None, no good whatsoever. Because
2. I would not have had control because other officials who did their games never had control of those games and most ended in fights, and
3. No, he would've continued to take a run at guys.

But because I didn't ring him up in a game where the result didn't matter (10-point game), he apologized to me after the game and before the next. He played much better and the "goon" was no longer.

So think, do I really need to ring a guy up? The only time I'll ever T a guy up is if an assault occurs or if anyone screams a word you can't say on Nickelodeon.

after reading this post I felt uncomfortable with you supporting what I wrote. After reading your other post about big heads I feel real uncomfortable with you affirming anything I wrote-if you agree with me I am probably wrong.

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Originally posted by sportsannouncing
Now let me ask you these questions.
1. What good would it have done to T him up?
2. Would I have had control the next time I did either of those teams?
3. Would the player have settled down his play?

Answers:
1. None, no good whatsoever. Because
2. I would not have had control because other officials who did their games never had control of those games and most ended in fights, and
3. No, he would've continued to take a run at guys.

But because I didn't ring him up in a game where the result didn't matter (10-point game), he apologized to me after the game and before the next. He played much better and the "goon" was no longer.

So think, do I really need to ring a guy up? The only time I'll ever T a guy up is if an assault occurs or if anyone screams a word you can't say on Nickelodeon.

Your answers are wrong and your closing statement is ABSOLUTELY WRONG. Assault!!!?? It is now too late and it is now that calling a "T" will absolutely make no difference. You have let your game get completely out of control ... likely due to your reluctance to impose proper penalties for improper behaviour - you didn't call the "T" when you should have done so.

And you say the "goon" was no longer. WRONG wrong wrong. The goon is still a goon and just hasn't resurfaced again - he will be back and it maybe for some other official besides you. YOU REINFORCED the allowance of his actions because YOU FAILED TO PENALIZE HIM. The playing fields today are filled with "goons" waiting for opportunities to laugh in the face authority. For some undeserved reason you seemed to only have had one goon in your game - if I was on the opposing team I would have been very tempted to goon you also. I mean the other guy can do it, guess I can too. Why don't we all clap in your idiotic face while you don't call fouls? (And you say, you call a tight game?! There is nothing tight about not enforcing proper penalties.)

You have made a mess. You have created a misunderstanding for players because you have allowed and accepted extreme confrontational humiliation that other officials are not willing to tolerate. I pray you are not mentoring any up and coming officials. I pray you don't get the living crap beat out of you some night for your extreme tolerance of absolutely unacceptable behaviour.

Your premise of thinking about what is to be gained by calling a techinical foul is a valid one, however, you have set the line of tolerance way beyond what is reasonable. Other officials following behind you will need to cleanup your mess.

I appologise to the board. I am done responding to your idiotic blubbering, SportAnnouncer.

The responsed I received this post are what I am talking about when it comes to Big Heads. Everyone who responded was "Immediate T", "don't tolerate it", "you were wrong".

If I was wrong then why was it that kid didn't try anything again, EVER, even when I wasn't there. That wasn't hypotheical, THAT REALLY HAPPENED. This is what infuriates me as a fan, an announcer and an official is to see referees like this who think THEY have to control the game. It's not the referees job to CONTROL and be seen. If you make the right call early, you wont have to make the "T" call later.

Take a look at your "T" calls. Take a serious look at them. Why did you call them. Then ask yourself, why did the situation arise that I had to call it. Did I miss a call earlier in the game. Should I have made that call. Should I have acknowledged one of the players earlier? Most (around 95%) of technicals are the direct result of a blown or bad call. Instead of taking some criticism on the side of improvement, it's obvious you all think you are the best and never make a mistake and for that I am very fearful for those who have to play with you on the court.

"absolutely unacceptable behaviour"? What is unacceptable behavior is a referee who shows up to do a game and goes through the motions. I am game any day, any time, any where to put my shirt on and go out there. I NEVER go through the motions because it's unfair to those participating, those watching and those paying. I don't streak off the court after the game while only jog down the sidelines during a game. I don't call plays through players (which a lot of NCAA officials do). I don't call upper-body travelling (look at it, a lot of officials do that). And I don't go through the motions.

I was hoping to get on here to get a better idea of why officials are they way they are in Virginia, Florida, California and New York. Because the officials I talk to and work with here in North Carolina seem to have it down right.