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-   -   Adjusting from 2-person to 3-person mechanics (2PO to 3PO) (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/103909-adjusting-2-person-3-person-mechanics-2po-3po.html)

ilyazhito Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:47am

Is going to the blocks before each quarter random, or is it determined by where that umpire was when the quarter ended?

I don't know, because the intramural games I worked 3-person for used halves. Presumably, the umpires just go to the blocks on the same side they were for warm-ups before each half, and then to L or C, depending on where the throw-in goes for the 2nd half. (Placement for the 1st half and OT is predetermined, because those periods start with a jump ball)

Any other things that would confuse an official newer to 3PO?

bob jenkins Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:43pm

Go wherever is closest. It’s notbrocket science and not every thing needs to be spelled out in detail.

JRutledge Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:55pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1023178)
Is going to the blocks before each quarter random, or is it determined by where that umpire was when the quarter ended?

I don't know, because the intramural games I worked 3-person for used halves. Presumably, the umpires just go to the blocks on the same side they were for warm-ups before each half, and then to L or C, depending on where the throw-in goes for the 2nd half. (Placement for the 1st half and OT is predetermined, because those periods start with a jump ball)

Any other things that would confuse an official newer to 3PO?

It is rare anymore that I work with guys where we go to the block. Usually, there is something to talk about so it is rare that this is done at least in my experience. Usually, we will talk about situations or warnings that might have been made previously or coaching issues that could come up. Or at the very least, two officials talk while the other one is on the block. The only reason to kind of be on the block is be ready for the end of the intermission of the quarter so that you can get the teams out of the huddle. Other than that it is kind of not used all the time.

Peace

Raymond Thu Jul 19, 2018 01:14pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1023178)
Is going to the blocks before each quarter random, or is it determined by where that umpire was when the quarter ended?

I don't know, because the intramural games I worked 3-person for used halves. Presumably, the umpires just go to the blocks on the same side they were for warm-ups before each half, and then to L or C, depending on where the throw-in goes for the 2nd half. (Placement for the 1st half and OT is predetermined, because those periods start with a jump ball)

Any other things that would confuse an official newer to 3PO?

At the start of the 2nd half the U's are supposed to monitor the same teams they monitored in the pregame, so that would not put them on the same block. In between the 1st & 2nd/3rd & 4th quarters, you go to the nearest block. In one of the HS associations I worked in, the 2nd & 4th quarter throw-ins are administered by whoever is closest to the division line when the previous quarter ended.

Again, you are waaaayyyyy into details that are either not very important in the big scheme of things or could be bettered answered by studying the respective mechanics manuals.

SC Official Thu Jul 19, 2018 02:48pm

Clearly he didn't read my suggestions on the previous page. Oh well.

JRutledge Thu Jul 19, 2018 03:00pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SC Official (Post 1023183)
Clearly he didn't read my suggestions on the previous page. Oh well.

Nope, you, me and Raymond tried. He is still worried about silly and insignificant stuff.

Peace

ilyazhito Thu Jul 19, 2018 04:00pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1023182)
At the start of the 2nd half the U's are supposed to monitor the same teams they monitored in the pregame, so that would not put them on the same block. In between the 1st & 2nd/3rd & 4th quarters, you go to the nearest block. In one of the HS associations I worked in, the 2nd & 4th quarter throw-ins are administered by whoever is closest to the division line when the previous quarter ended.

Again, you are waaaayyyyy into details that are either not very important in the big scheme of things or could be bettered answered by studying the respective mechanics manuals.

Go to the nearer block. That makes total sense.

I know that U1 watches home, and U2 watches visitors, and that they change over because the teams change over.

I'm not stupid, just unsure of how things should be done.
I'd like this thread to continue, so other officials newer to 3 person would have the opportunity to know what stumbling blocks to avoid, regardless of how stupid their questions may seem. I ask these questions because I care and want to get things right, not because I like to engage in nitpicking. Anyone would know this better if he met me in person, instead of just through a computer screen.

Raymond Thu Jul 19, 2018 04:10pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1023186)
Go to the nearer block. That makes total sense.

I know that U1 watches home, and U2 watches visitors, and that they change over because the teams change over.

I'm not stupid, just unsure of how things should be done.
I'd like this thread to continue, so other officials newer to 3 person would have the opportunity to know what stumbling blocks to avoid, regardless of how stupid their questions may seem. I ask these questions because I care and want to get things right, not because I like to engage in nitpicking. Anyone would know this better if he met me in person, instead of just through a computer screen.

I at no point said or indicated that your questions are stupid. I said the exact opposite, that they are too detailed. You are not going to be able to pick up every nuance through this forum.

All mechanic questions are always best answered through the manual. Now if you want to know what people do in real life, that's another story. But if you're asking what we're supposed to do per the manual, go directly to the manual.

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BillyMac Thu Jul 19, 2018 05:25pm

All Politics Is Local (Tip O'Neill, 1982) ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1023187)
All mechanic questions are always best answered through the manual. Now if you want to know what people do in real life, that's another story. But if you're asking what we're supposed to do per the manual, go directly to the manual.

Agree 100%. Great advice. Well worded.

ilyazhito should also note that in some cases local "customs" may override the written manual. In that case the best expert to talk to would be his local interpreter/trainer/clinician/assigner, etc. If these guys tell him to not do something that's the written manual, then don't do those things. If they tell him to do something that's not in the written manual, then do those things. It's imperative that if the local "customs" are different than the written manual, do the local "customs", or stick out like a sore thumb.

ilyazhito should not seek advice regarding local mechanics from any of us. We don't work where he works. Written manual questions? Sure we can help, but he can always look it up.

https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.A...=0&w=300&h=300

ilyazhito Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:43am

Guess I'll have to start a new thread: Things the Mechanics Manual Doesn't Tell You. There would then be room for real-life discussion of mechanics.

Raymond mentioned being sideline-oriented in 3-person mechanics in another thread. That is a BIG adjustment from 2-person, because a 2PO trail has to move off the sideline to see his primary area. However, a 3PO trail has a center official to cover the other sideline, and likewise for the C, so there is no need to work off the sideline, except to position adjust.

I have also noticed some Trail and Center officials working higher than expected in 3-person games. I have noticed, because it put the officials in question into bad looks, and led to some questionable calls. Is this a holdover from 2-man? The 2-person trail does tend to be higher than the 28' mark to be able to see the division line, but what is the purpose of being above 28' in 3-man? Would working lower be another 2 to 3 adjustment?

Rich Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:57am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1023198)
Guess I'll have to start a new thread: Things the Mechanics Manual Doesn't Tell You. There would then be room for real-life discussion of mechanics.

Raymond mentioned being sideline-oriented in 3-person mechanics in another thread. That is a BIG adjustment from 2-person, because a 2PO trail has to move off the sideline to see his primary area. However, a 3PO trail has a center official to cover the other sideline, and likewise for the C, so there is no need to work off the sideline, except to position adjust.

I have also noticed some Trail and Center officials working higher than expected in 3-person games. I have noticed, because it put the officials in question into bad looks, and led to some questionable calls. Is this a holdover from 2-man? The 2-person trail does tend to be higher than the 28' mark to be able to see the division line, but what is the purpose of being above 28' in 3-man? Would working lower be another 2 to 3 adjustment?


Let me sum up in one sentence:

Move to have open looks in your primary.


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bob jenkins Fri Jul 20, 2018 03:13pm

Depending on the specific mechanics / wishes of your assigner, you might want to be closer to the division line than any competitive matchup. That could put you higher in T than the 28' mark.

And, that, and FT line extendned for C are just starting points / "home bases." Move to improve (to throw out some camp speak)

And, no, I'm not covering it during pre-game.

BillyMac Fri Jul 20, 2018 05:21pm

Forum Rules ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1023207)
Move to improve.

Always listen to bob.

ilyazhito Thu Aug 02, 2018 09:40pm

RE: Rotations and the Game/Shot Clock, I asked George Williams, an observer for MEAC who was at our camp as a clinician, and he said that rotations late in the shot clock are by crew agreement, but that I should not rotate with 10 seconds or less on the game clock. Apparently, the women's game makes a bigger deal of no rotations with 5 seconds or less on the shot clock than the men's game does.

Raymond Thu Aug 02, 2018 09:44pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1023512)
RE: Rotations and the Game/Shot Clock, I asked George Williams, an observer for MEAC who was at our camp as a clinician, and he said that rotations late in the shot clock are by crew agreement, but that I should not rotate with 10 seconds or less on the game clock. ...

If it's not in the manual, then opinions will vary depending on whom you are working for or in front of. Just be prepared to adjust accordingly.


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