The Official Forum

The Official Forum (https://forum.officiating.com/)
-   Basketball (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/)
-   -   Adjusting from 2-person to 3-person mechanics (2PO to 3PO) (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/103909-adjusting-2-person-3-person-mechanics-2po-3po.html)

ilyazhito Mon Jul 02, 2018 11:01am

Adjusting from 2-person to 3-person mechanics (2PO to 3PO)
 
Background: I am a junior veteran official (I have 3 years of experience with basketball, 3 with football, and 2 with baseball) who will be working a subvarsity basketball schedule next year. That said, I will be working camp and intramural games, and possibly a few varsity games as needed, so I would appreciate anything that would help me be comfortable officiating with 3-person mechanics.

What are the major adjustments you need to make when you move from working 2 person games to 3 person games? I have done much reading of the NFHS, IAABO, CCA Men's, CCA Women's and FIBA manuals, so I understand how 3 person mechanics should work (there are live-ball rotations in 3PO, in addition to transitions and dead-ball switches in 2PO; you have to switch on all fouls, unless you are already on the proper side of the court as the trail or center official; and the Illustrated High School Basketball Mechanics manual published by Referee also recommends that you stay near the sideline, unless you need to move to get a better angle), and have some practical experience with 3 person mechanics through camps and intramural basketball, so I do have some working knowledge of 3PO. However, I have yet to work a regular season scholastic game which uses 3PO, so I would appreciate any additional practical suggestions for adjusting to 3 person mechanics. If you are a newer varsity official, has there been anything specific that helped you adjust to working in 3-person crews? Experienced officials, what helped you out when you were a wide-eyed junior veteran looking to make the jump from all 2-person games to a mix of 2 and 3-person games?

JRutledge Mon Jul 02, 2018 11:36am

The adjustment is knowing the differences. If you do not know the differences you will struggle. But 3 person has one more official and that shortens your coverage area. Not really hard in my book if you study the two systems for any amount of time and work both.

If you are not a good 2 person official, you will not be a good 3 person official IMO.

Peace

AremRed Mon Jul 02, 2018 11:42am

Here is a thread I made 5 years ago that might help you.

On top of that stuff, most important thing is to remember to call the game! Don't worry too much about what's your area, just call the game as you would normally. As you gain more experience you will understand your coverage area better and know where to look when. Definitely get video of yourself doing 3 person and analyze your game. Become your worst critic and ask for advice and fix the stuff you don't like.

If you're scared about missing a rotation as Trail when Lead goes over just remember if the ball is on the far side of the court (even above the FT line extended), then as Trail you need to look off ball. And most times when you look off ball you will see the Lead rotating across and will be able to pick it up!

sdoebler Mon Jul 02, 2018 11:49am

The main differences that I found were working as the Center in general and when to rotate as the lead.

Center: The center position can be a change because this position is not available in a 2 man crew. The main things I notice from new Cs is that they do not get low enough and early on will tend to leave a good position because it is "time to rotate." Start free throw line extended (I usually start with my top foot at the free throw line extended because often there will be players lined up in front of you since they can start their offense there) and adjust to get angles. Curl plays are your responsibility as they are coming at you. Pick and roll plays are 2 referee plays, be in position to help the crew. I think the mechanics manual lists players 1234 or ABCD, you are generally going to have 3 and 4 (C and D) the screener and player guarding the screener. Don't leave a good position! If you have a great look at a primary match up in your area, don't move above the match-up just because the lead comes over. Referee the play in front of you and then adjust into position when the ball leaves your primary. On passes to your primary find the feet, then referee the defense and follow them to the point of contact.

Lead: I can't remember working with a lead new to 3 man that rotated too much. Probably an over generalization but thinking point. Rotate to put your crew in the best position, not just yourself. The lead will initiate the rotation of the crew about 95% of the time. Don't get stuck under the backboard as your crew will not know if they are T or C. Start your rotation, you can always kill it and back out if there is an immediate Shoot, Drive to the basket, or skip pass. Start to pay attention to what type of defense is being played (zone vs man) and what offense is being run as this will help you know what position to be in. If you know where the ball is going try to rotate to get in position while the ball is in the air, not once it is caught.

When you transition to the other end of the floor always look over your shoulder and find your partners in your peripheral vision. Everyone at some point has ended up with two leads or zero leads, try to prevent that. It is generally the job of the old lead new trail to "fix" busted rotations. Have fun, as 3 man is much easier on the legs, good for the games, and more enjoyable to work imo.

ilyazhito Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:06pm

I noticed that myself when I went to the annual camp for my second association. On the first day, I worked 3 2-man games and 2 3-man games. I was dead tired at the end of the day! However, when I worked 2 3-man games, I felt that I could work at least another 2 more games in the 3-man system, because it is a lot less tiring (not that I hustle less). For intramurals, I regularly did shifts of 3 3-man games, and I felt after each shift that I could have worked a fourth game with no ill effects.

I also enjoy 3-man more, because I can get better angles and focus more on the off-ball stuff (the illegal screens, impeding the cutters, 3 seconds, etc.) from the outside positions than in 2-man, because I don't have to cover the same gigantic primary area that I must with 2 officials. As the lead, I feel freer to help the outside official by rotating in 3-man than I do going ball-side in 2-man.

What I have noticed so far in my 3-man games is that I do make calls, but I sometimes feel that other people are beating me to the punch on calls in my primary area (either I am about to blow the whistle and they blow ahead of me, or I blow the whistle at the same time as them). However, the calls that I do manage to make without stepping on my partners or being stepped on tend to be correct, because I work to be in good position and focus on the actions of the defenders. Any tips to get quicker timing?

I also do not hesitate to rotate, but sometimes I see that the rotation situation has fallen apart as soon as I am on the other side. Is that something that often happens to you, and how do you deal with that?

SNIPERBBB Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:20pm

Hardest thing is when going between the two is remembering what year it is so you know which side of the table to go on free throws as it changes about every other years it seems like.

JRutledge Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:21pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB (Post 1022699)
Hardest thing is when going between the two is remembering what year it is so you know which side of the table to go on free throws as it changes about every other years it seems like.

Is that a state change? We have been going tableside for years at the high school level here. We have just as long as I can remember go opposite table in Men's college. I cannot even remember when was the last time either level used the other mechanic.

Peace

SNIPERBBB Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:30pm

I've lost track of Ohio's change here lately. Last year we started going opposite in three man and it wasn't a that long ago we were opposite in two man, but I think it switched back again.

sdoebler Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:32pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1022697)
What I have noticed so far in my 3-man games is that I do make calls, but I sometimes feel that other people are beating me to the punch on calls in my primary area (either I am about to blow the whistle and they blow ahead of me, or I blow the whistle at the same time as them). However, the calls that I do manage to make without stepping on my partners or being stepped on tend to be correct, because I work to be in good position and focus on the actions of the defenders. Any tips to get quicker timing?

I also do not hesitate to rotate, but sometimes I see that the rotation situation has fallen apart as soon as I am on the other side. Is that something that often happens to you, and how do you deal with that?

You should not be looking to increase your whistle timing. Repetitive double whistles are a good sign that you or your partners are refereeing outside of their PCA. That discussion should be with your crew about primaries. Primary coverage should have a primary whistle, secondary coverage area secondary whistle if a whistle at all. Start, develop, finish, decision. If the whistle is coming at the exact point of contact/violation there are other issues.

The rotation situation did not "fall apart." Maybe one of the situations arose in which you should have backed out of the rotation: Drive, Shoot, Pass. The ball position and players could have changed since you rotated, this does not mean it was a bad rotation but another rotation might need to happen. There is no limit to the amount of times you can rotate in a possession.

sdoebler Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:34pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1022700)
Is that a state change? We have been going tableside for years at the high school level here. We have just as long as I can remember go opposite table in Men's college. I cannot even remember when was the last time either level used the other mechanic.

Peace

IAABO states rotate opposite table in high school in line with mens college mechanic and opposite of NFHS. If people move states or their state adopts IAABO it could warrant a change to the side of rotation.

JRutledge Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:40pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by sdoebler (Post 1022703)
IAABO states rotate opposite table in high school in line with mens college mechanic and opposite of NFHS. If people move states or their state adopts IAABO it could warrant a change to the side of rotation.

I get that if you change a state that might be an issue for some. But I added a state and nothing changed. I guess what I was asking was how often is a place changing their switching mechanics? I asked because the NF or my original state has not changed that in well over 15 years. College Men's changed about the same time to the other side and nothing has happened since. My point unless you live in those states that changed all the time, there is not much adjustment to this one small area of the mechanics.

Peace

ilyazhito Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:54pm

OK. Now I know about what really needs to be hammered down in 3-person pre-game conferences: Primary areas and their intersections. That way neither I nor my partners will be making calls outside our primary areas without good reasons to do so.

RE: Rotations, thanks for the advice. I'll keep that in mind, and go back if the ball goes back to the other side, or if a pass, shot, drive causes me to abort the planned rotation.

About no limit to the amount of rotations, does that apply to shot clock games? AFAIK, CCA Men's and Women's manuals discourage rotations at 5 seconds on the shot clock or less. Is it the same for high school shot clock games, in the states that do use a shot clock at the high school level (MD,DC,CA,MA,RI,NY,WA,ND,SD)?

JRutledge Mon Jul 02, 2018 01:06pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1022706)
OK. Now I know about what really needs to be hammered down in 3-person pre-game conferences: Primary areas and their intersections. That way neither I nor my partners will be making calls outside our primary areas without good reasons to do so.

You work with veterans or the further you go in your career, this will never be a topic of discussion in many cases before a game.

I was at a camp this weekend and there were officials that I worked with that not one time we talked about our primary or secondary coverage and I have never met them before the camp or will likely see many of them again unless we are both on the same staff.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1022706)
About no limit to the amount of rotations, does that apply to shot clock games? AFAIK, CCA Men's and Women's manuals discourage rotations at 5 seconds on the shot clock or less. Is it the same for high school shot clock games, in the states that do use a shot clock at the high school level (MD,DC,CA,MA,RI,NY,WA,ND,SD)?

I have never heard anyone suggest we should not rotate when needed. Even under 5 seconds on the shot clock you still should rotate under the right circumstances. Mechanics are not hard-fast rules, they are guides. There are always exceptions to things that are even in the book for a lot of reasons if you have the experience to know when to deviate.

Peace

Raymond Mon Jul 02, 2018 06:40pm

The main difference is that two-person games follow the mechanics from the two person manual and three-person games follow the mechanics for the three-person manual.

Learn them separately and remember them separately.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

JBleach85 Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:05am

There is always going to be a learning curve when transitioning from 2-person to 3 person mechanics. The biggest thing to remember is to call your primary and call the game. Everything will come to more games that you work. I noticed that you talk about working Intramurals and that you work 3-person but then bounce back to 2-person. I remembering having to do that when I worked intramurals and were coming up the ranks. I got a mentor who helped me out who was also my supervisor for intramurals and she helped me out tremendously and I owe a lot to her for starting me off on the right foot.

My advice would be to keep doing what you are doing and doing but look into getting a mentor who can help you. Everything will come in the time it is like anything else you have to see enough plays in both 2-person and 3-person and things will click. We are still learning and even with all the levels that I am working I still am finding ways to get better in both 2-person and 3-person.

JRutledge Tue Jul 03, 2018 01:22pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1022717)
The main difference is that two-person games follow the mechanics from the two person manual and three-person games follow the mechanics for the three-person manual.

Learn them separately and remember them separately.

Honestly, I think this is spot on. I had to learn both 2 person and 3 person at the same time. I was not a master of either for some time and always willing to learn stuff that takes place in every game. Now it is like riding a bike but still learning little things to make my game better.

Peace

ilyazhito Wed Jul 04, 2018 01:55pm

JRut, did you also learn 3-person through intramurals, or was your association at the time so desperate for bodies at the varsity level that they were willing to throw a young official into a 3-person varsity game with just camp training? It just seems surprising that you would learn both 2 and 3-person mechanics at the same time. If either scenario happened, what you said would make a lot of sense.

I learned 2-person before 3-person (I was already finished with my 2nd year with Board 12 by the time that I went to my first teaching camp and learned the basics of 3-person there), so I did not have to learn 2 systems simultaneously. I started working intramural basketball this season as my scholastic season was winding down, and I had prior knowledge of 3-person from camp, so I was able to work games under the 3-person system without disorientation. As I see it now, I am very comfortable with 2-person, because I have had 3 years of practice, but I only have one year of sporadic 3-person experience. This means that I know my responsibilities in 3-person, but am not yet fluent in 3-person, because I have not had as many opportunities to practice 3PO as 2PO. I'll be going to another camp this August to put the suggestions of the Forum members into practice and see what works, and will try to get as much 3-person scrimmage experience as I can (one association that I work for self-assigns scrimmages). Are there other types of leagues that use 3PO, so that I can be prepared when my time for varsity assignments comes?

JRutledge Wed Jul 04, 2018 02:58pm

I was never an intramural official. I have always been a licensed official in the state of Illinois. I learned by reading the mechanics books and going to camps. When I started there were just starting 3 Person in our state for the playoffs. I learned both mechanics sets at the same time. I was not forced to do anything, I realized that it made more sense to learn both. It was not hard as I did not have to relearn or figure out the differences. I also worked varsity in my first year because of the 3 Person was needed for everyone to learn. Again no magic formula, just watch other levels and figure out the differences and expectations of each position.

Peace

ilyazhito Sat Jul 07, 2018 10:31pm

I understand. If there are any leagues in my area beside intramural and scholastic ball that use 3-person, I'll look to work those, to get more experience with 3PO. I'll also look for potential mentors, and bounce questions off them.

That said, how to reconcile rotating as often as possible with the recommendation from the CCA mens and women's manuals to not rotate with under 5 seconds in the shot clock? I believe the reason behind that recommendation is that a team is very likely to shoot when facing shot clock pressure, and one should not rotate during a shot, to be able to be in position for the rebound. Would a college (or high school, in states with a shot clock) crew rotate as normal, but more quickly, after they had pointed to the shot clock?

JRutledge Sun Jul 08, 2018 02:13am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1022827)
That said, how to reconcile rotating as often as possible with the recommendation from the CCA mens and women's manuals to not rotate with under 5 seconds in the shot clock? I believe the reason behind that recommendation is that a team is very likely to shoot when facing shot clock pressure, and one should not rotate during a shot, to be able to be in position for the rebound. Would a college (or high school, in states with a shot clock) crew rotate as normal, but more quickly, after they had pointed to the shot clock?

Reconcile? What is there to reconcile? Mechanics (again) are guides. There are situations when you have to officiate based on what is in front of you. Not saying you will need to do any rotation at that time, but I cannot think of a time when I was worried about a rotation because of what the shot clock says. If you have done this long enough, you kind of know when they are going to get ready to shoot or drive to the basket, which likely would not need you rotating at all. That can come with 15 seconds on the shot clock. Often the shot clock never gets to that point by the way the game is played today. But hey these are things you worry about often based on these posts, I just do not get why these things are broken down like this in your mind.

Peace

bob jenkins Sun Jul 08, 2018 07:41am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1022827)
That said, how to reconcile rotating as often as possible with the recommendation from the CCA mens and women's manuals to not rotate with under 5 seconds in the shot clock?

There's no conflict. You can't read every statement in isolation.

ilyazhito Sun Jul 08, 2018 01:44pm

I understand the value of rotating often, because you can get better angles on post plays when you move as the lead to the new strong side (or when you move down as the old Trail). Howvere, there seems to me to be a conflict between rotating in all situations, regardless of the shot clock and the recommendation (not order) by CCA to not rotate with <5 seconds on the shot clock. To me, these two statements are contradictory, and I know that a statement and its opposite cannot be true at the same time. That is why I am asking for specific solutions that college (or HS officials with a shot clock) use to solve this specific problem.

I also try to adopt a deliberate approach as the Center in transition, to not put myself out of position, and yet have good timing and angles to make the proper call. In the frontcourt, that changes, as I want to be aggressive in making off-ball calls in my area (or on-ball, should the ball move to my side while I am C). As lead, I try to mirror the ball and have a patient whistle on plays in my area. If I see the C alone, with more players and the ball on his side, I go (unless one of the immediates (pass, shot, dribble drive) happens). As trail, I try to get good position to referee defenders on ball (if the ball is in my area) or off ball, if they are somewhere else. I also try to pick up game and shot clock when I transition, switch, or rotate. Anything else that I need to add to my thought process?

JRutledge Sun Jul 08, 2018 02:13pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1022838)
I understand the value of rotating often, because you can get better angles on post plays when you move as the lead to the new strong side (or when you move down as the old Trail). Howvere, there seems to me to be a conflict between rotating in all situations, regardless of the shot clock and the recommendation (not order) by CCA to not rotate with <5 seconds on the shot clock. To me, these two statements are contradictory, and I know that a statement and its opposite cannot be true at the same time. That is why I am asking for specific solutions that college (or HS officials with a shot clock) use to solve this specific problem.

I also try to adopt a deliberate approach as the Center in transition, to not put myself out of position, and yet have good timing and angles to make the proper call. In the frontcourt, that changes, as I want to be aggressive in making off-ball calls in my area (or on-ball, should the ball move to my side while I am C). As lead, I try to mirror the ball and have a patient whistle on plays in my area. If I see the C alone, with more players and the ball on his side, I go (unless one of the immediates (pass, shot, dribble drive) happens). As trail, I try to get good position to referee defenders on ball (if the ball is in my area) or off ball, if they are somewhere else. I also try to pick up game and shot clock when I transition, switch, or rotate. Anything else that I need to add to my thought process?

Since you have not worked a lot of 3 person and only have done it in intermural situations, I would suggest if you ever go to camp of any kind, do not do what you are doing here at that camp or any camp for that matter. Seriously, if you are at a high school camp, I would not care as a clinician what college does for the most part. If you are at a college camp, no one is going to care what the other gender does. You are only going to likely work one or the other in that setting, so what the Women's CCA Manual does when you are at a Men's camp is going to make that clinician not talk to you anymore (and vice versa). I get your curiosity and wanting to split every hair, but that is annoying when trying to find every little nit to pick about what something might say or not say. These are questions at best for a mentor or a personal conversation, not one that everyone can hear or wants to hear when they are not struggling with these issues. Not because people do not respect your wanting to know, but it does not matter what they say, you have an answer for why there is an issue. Many college camps, you might be lucky you even work a game with a shot clock at all during that camp for a major college conference. I cannot teach you in this setting what to do in every situation in 3 person. There are so many situations that you have to learn from by doing games and getting on the court feedback. When you rotate or not on the shot clock is not something that even many officials are going to even notice in many situations because you are officiating, not eyeballing the shot clock as the lead. Take a deep breath, it is OK to do what you feel is best in some of these situations. When you rotate is ultimately up to you and the crew you work with and what they notice. If someone has an issue with you rotating at a certain point, take it under advisement and do what you feel is best. Been to several camps this summer and this issue never came up, not once.

Peace

Rich Sun Jul 08, 2018 02:26pm

I know you've mentioned that you are on the spectrum (or something like that), so I get that it might be hard for you to let some of these things go.

I hire officials, but only at the HS varsity level. Take this for what it's worth. I do not care what mechanics people use or even if they are correct for the games they are currently working at a camp setting. When I look to hire people, I am looking to answer one question: "Can he/she ref?"

For me, it's about correct calls, how they interact with partners and coaches, and correct calls.

Anyone can officiate a perfect game on paper. Anyone can learn all the different mechanics variations and rules differences. You can demonstrate that to me with thousands of words here and none of it really matters.

I will watch you, probably for 5-10 minutes, and will know whether I want to use you...or not. For many officials, I disqualify them on the first possession (if I see eyes never leaving the ball, I'm moving on).

I'm afraid this preoccupation with knowing everything there is to know while off the court is going to hold you back in your progression. I could be wrong and hope I am, but it's my gut feel.

ilyazhito Mon Jul 09, 2018 06:57am

Au contraire, mon frere. I seek to learn OFF the court so that I can get better ON the court for any contests that I am assigned. I have to switch rule sets all the time when I am umpiring baseball, because I might work a high school game by NFHS rules one day, a men's league game by professional rules the next, and a travel game that mixes high school and college rules the following day, so my remembering rules differences make sense.
My asking about rotations as they relate to the shot clock is NOT idle curiosity, because DC and MD (the jurisdictions where I officiate high school basketball) use a shot clock for freshman, JV, and varsity games, the latter of which are officiated using 3-person NFHS mechanics (with signals borrowed from the CCA Women's Manual to deal specifically with shot clock situations; DC public schools use a 30/15 shot clock, as do MD. Private schools use NCAAM shot clock and throw-in spot rules for boys (30/20), and NCAAW shot clock rules for girls (30/15).). If I work a varsity game this year (as an emergency replacement, most likely) or next year, I would need to store this situation in my memory bank to not be confused when I encounter it in a real game. I have experience with 3-person (intramurals and camps), and with the shot clock (DC and WCAC Girls subvarsity games), but not with the two combined (3 person game with a shot clock).
The only reason that I mentioned both the men's and women's manuals is because the instruction to not rotate late in the shot clock is present in both books. I would not use women's mechanics (starting the clock with a fist, signalling the corner 3-pointer as Lead, or switching tableside on fouls) at a men's camp, or vice versa.
If anyone else has any constructive suggestions about 3-person mechanics, I would be open to hear (and implement) them. When I officiate (or watch other officials, live or on videos), I learn what to do (or not to do). So, learning for me is a combination of practice, modelling, and receiving and implementing new information.

Raymond Mon Jul 09, 2018 07:53am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1022867)
Au contraire, mon frere. I seek to learn OFF the court so that I can get better ON the court for any contests that I am assigned. I have to switch rule sets all the time when I am umpiring baseball, because I might work a high school game by NFHS rules one day, a men's league game by professional rules the next, and a travel game that mixes high school and college rules the following day, so my remembering rules differences make sense.
My asking about rotations as they relate to the shot clock is NOT idle curiosity, because DC and MD (the jurisdictions where I officiate high school basketball) use a shot clock for freshman, JV, and varsity games, the latter of which are officiated using 3-person NFHS mechanics (with signals borrowed from the CCA Women's Manual to deal specifically with shot clock situations; DC public schools use a 30/15 shot clock, as do MD. Private schools use NCAAM shot clock and throw-in spot rules for boys (30/20), and NCAAW shot clock rules for girls (30/15).). If I work a varsity game this year (as an emergency replacement, most likely) or next year, I would need to store this situation in my memory bank to not be confused when I encounter it in a real game. I have experience with 3-person (intramurals and camps), and with the shot clock (DC and WCAC Girls subvarsity games), but not with the two combined (3 person game with a shot clock).
The only reason that I mentioned both the men's and women's manuals is because the instruction to not rotate late in the shot clock is present in both books. I would not use women's mechanics (starting the clock with a fist, signalling the corner 3-pointer as Lead, or switching tableside on fouls) at a men's camp, or vice versa.
If anyone else has any constructive suggestions about 3-person mechanics, I would be open to hear (and implement) them. When I officiate (or watch other officials, live or on videos), I learn what to do (or not to do). So, learning for me is a combination of practice, modelling, and receiving and implementing new information.

You're trying to absorb too much information. You need to get to camp and let us know what your feedback is. All the other questions you are asking can be answered by acquiring the proper publications. Regardless, no one looking for talent in camp is going to care if you know every manual inside out. They want to do know if you can recognize fouls and violations, if you can handle players and coaches, are you in shape, and can you run up and down the court athletically.

If you keep on asking SO MANY questions looking for SO MUCH detail, people here are going to stop responding.

ilyazhito Thu Jul 12, 2018 08:42am

I found out that not rotating late in the shot clock is an evaluation criterion (as well as a suggestion in the CCA Manual) for NCAAW and NCAAM, so I will not rotate if there are 5 seconds left on the shot clock in any HS shot clock game, unless my commissioner or supervisor says otherwise.

That said, any other things an official transitioning from 2 to 3-person needs to know? We've covered switches (tableside or opposite, depending on state/level), responsibilities of the Center and Lead officials, primary area coverage, and rotations. In 3-person, Trail is not automatically the calling official on last-second shots. It's either the outside official opposite the table (OTO, can be C or T) (NFHS/NCAAM) or Center official (women).

Here are some other things I have noticed about working 3-person games. Other than standing at different places, or having clock responsibilities for the initial jump ball, I haven't noticed much of a difference in pre-game duties or jump ball duties as the U1 or U2. I know that R is supposed to administer the alternating-possession throw-ins for the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th quarters, but the position of the umpires is undetermined (obviously, one becomes Lead opposite the table and the other becomes C tableside to start the appropriate quarter after leaving the blocks to retrieve their respective teams, intermission (except halftime) being just another 60-second timeout in high school). I guess that the umpires go to the block closest to where they were when the quarter ended (In 2-person, both the R and U1 are at the division line opposite the table, in 60-second timeout positions with the ball coming in opposite the table, and the R administering the throw-in), and go from there. For halftime, they would just go to the blocks on the same side as they were when watching warm-ups.

Is there anything else that I am missing?

JRutledge Thu Jul 12, 2018 09:42am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1023050)
I found out that not rotating late in the shot clock is an evaluation criterion (as well as a suggestion in the CCA Manual) for NCAAW and NCAAM, so I will not rotate if there are 5 seconds left on the shot clock in any HS shot clock game, unless my commissioner or supervisor says otherwise.

Found out from whom? Forgive me I have been doing college ball over a little over 10 years and never have had anyone say a single word to me about this situation. So maybe you are right but never heard anyone complain about an official that did or did not rotate based on the shot clock situation. Went to a college camp last year where every game was with a shot clock (we applied the new rules before the season) and not one comment was about rotations and the shot clock. Most of the comments as stated her before were about calls, calling in and out of your primary, why you didn't rotate or having a late whistle. I doubt seriously any supervisor would even say anything unless you feel you have to ask.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1023050)

Is there anything else that I am missing?

There is a lot you are missing and a lot we will never be able to tell you. You have to work and be instructed. Because the biggest thing that is going to happen to you, you will go to a camp and one clinician will tell you to do something and the very next game another clinician will tell you something a little different about the same thing. What do you do then? And going around telling them what is in the CCA Mechanics book they might not use is not the best way to go.

I worked a tournament yesterday that had a women's college camp as part of the overall tournament. I can assure you that the Women's side cares less about what the Men's side does and certainly that is the case with the Men's camps.

Peace

Raymond Thu Jul 12, 2018 09:55am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1023050)
... (In 2-person, both the R and U1 are at the division line opposite the table, in 60-second timeout positions with the ball coming in opposite the table, and the R administering the throw-in)...

Good luck with this. I would be generous if I were to say 5% of my partners in 2-man games have done this mechanic properly.

SC Official Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:02am

With all due respect, we don't need to read five paragraph essays telling us what you've learned in intramurals and your camps. People on this forum are happy to answer questions, but we're not interested in hearing every detail of your officiating experiences or what you learned at camp. Find a mentor and use him/her for that. When I see the length of your posts I immediately lose interest (just ask BillyMac how people feel about some of his posts). Not to mention a lot of the information you're telling us, we learned a long time ago. It's nothing new or revolutionary. Most everyone on this forum knows the rules, mechanics, and philosophies for the levels they work very thoroughly. Sorry if that's harsh, but it's the truth; we've been doing this a lot longer than you have.

You're going to have to figure some things out on your own and learn that at the end of the day, no one is going to be able to answer every question you have down to the fine print. Also, you can read and regurgitate the manuals and rules all you want; at the end of the day, if you aren't able to do what your assigners or camp clinicians want, you're not going to be pleased with the results. And if you come back with "but that's not what the manual says," you can kiss any chance of getting hired goodbye.

You would do better by condensing your posts and figuring some things out on your own.

ilyazhito Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:47am

Is going to the blocks before each quarter random, or is it determined by where that umpire was when the quarter ended?

I don't know, because the intramural games I worked 3-person for used halves. Presumably, the umpires just go to the blocks on the same side they were for warm-ups before each half, and then to L or C, depending on where the throw-in goes for the 2nd half. (Placement for the 1st half and OT is predetermined, because those periods start with a jump ball)

Any other things that would confuse an official newer to 3PO?

bob jenkins Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:43pm

Go wherever is closest. It’s notbrocket science and not every thing needs to be spelled out in detail.

JRutledge Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:55pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1023178)
Is going to the blocks before each quarter random, or is it determined by where that umpire was when the quarter ended?

I don't know, because the intramural games I worked 3-person for used halves. Presumably, the umpires just go to the blocks on the same side they were for warm-ups before each half, and then to L or C, depending on where the throw-in goes for the 2nd half. (Placement for the 1st half and OT is predetermined, because those periods start with a jump ball)

Any other things that would confuse an official newer to 3PO?

It is rare anymore that I work with guys where we go to the block. Usually, there is something to talk about so it is rare that this is done at least in my experience. Usually, we will talk about situations or warnings that might have been made previously or coaching issues that could come up. Or at the very least, two officials talk while the other one is on the block. The only reason to kind of be on the block is be ready for the end of the intermission of the quarter so that you can get the teams out of the huddle. Other than that it is kind of not used all the time.

Peace

Raymond Thu Jul 19, 2018 01:14pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1023178)
Is going to the blocks before each quarter random, or is it determined by where that umpire was when the quarter ended?

I don't know, because the intramural games I worked 3-person for used halves. Presumably, the umpires just go to the blocks on the same side they were for warm-ups before each half, and then to L or C, depending on where the throw-in goes for the 2nd half. (Placement for the 1st half and OT is predetermined, because those periods start with a jump ball)

Any other things that would confuse an official newer to 3PO?

At the start of the 2nd half the U's are supposed to monitor the same teams they monitored in the pregame, so that would not put them on the same block. In between the 1st & 2nd/3rd & 4th quarters, you go to the nearest block. In one of the HS associations I worked in, the 2nd & 4th quarter throw-ins are administered by whoever is closest to the division line when the previous quarter ended.

Again, you are waaaayyyyy into details that are either not very important in the big scheme of things or could be bettered answered by studying the respective mechanics manuals.

SC Official Thu Jul 19, 2018 02:48pm

Clearly he didn't read my suggestions on the previous page. Oh well.

JRutledge Thu Jul 19, 2018 03:00pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SC Official (Post 1023183)
Clearly he didn't read my suggestions on the previous page. Oh well.

Nope, you, me and Raymond tried. He is still worried about silly and insignificant stuff.

Peace

ilyazhito Thu Jul 19, 2018 04:00pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1023182)
At the start of the 2nd half the U's are supposed to monitor the same teams they monitored in the pregame, so that would not put them on the same block. In between the 1st & 2nd/3rd & 4th quarters, you go to the nearest block. In one of the HS associations I worked in, the 2nd & 4th quarter throw-ins are administered by whoever is closest to the division line when the previous quarter ended.

Again, you are waaaayyyyy into details that are either not very important in the big scheme of things or could be bettered answered by studying the respective mechanics manuals.

Go to the nearer block. That makes total sense.

I know that U1 watches home, and U2 watches visitors, and that they change over because the teams change over.

I'm not stupid, just unsure of how things should be done.
I'd like this thread to continue, so other officials newer to 3 person would have the opportunity to know what stumbling blocks to avoid, regardless of how stupid their questions may seem. I ask these questions because I care and want to get things right, not because I like to engage in nitpicking. Anyone would know this better if he met me in person, instead of just through a computer screen.

Raymond Thu Jul 19, 2018 04:10pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1023186)
Go to the nearer block. That makes total sense.

I know that U1 watches home, and U2 watches visitors, and that they change over because the teams change over.

I'm not stupid, just unsure of how things should be done.
I'd like this thread to continue, so other officials newer to 3 person would have the opportunity to know what stumbling blocks to avoid, regardless of how stupid their questions may seem. I ask these questions because I care and want to get things right, not because I like to engage in nitpicking. Anyone would know this better if he met me in person, instead of just through a computer screen.

I at no point said or indicated that your questions are stupid. I said the exact opposite, that they are too detailed. You are not going to be able to pick up every nuance through this forum.

All mechanic questions are always best answered through the manual. Now if you want to know what people do in real life, that's another story. But if you're asking what we're supposed to do per the manual, go directly to the manual.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

BillyMac Thu Jul 19, 2018 05:25pm

All Politics Is Local (Tip O'Neill, 1982) ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1023187)
All mechanic questions are always best answered through the manual. Now if you want to know what people do in real life, that's another story. But if you're asking what we're supposed to do per the manual, go directly to the manual.

Agree 100%. Great advice. Well worded.

ilyazhito should also note that in some cases local "customs" may override the written manual. In that case the best expert to talk to would be his local interpreter/trainer/clinician/assigner, etc. If these guys tell him to not do something that's the written manual, then don't do those things. If they tell him to do something that's not in the written manual, then do those things. It's imperative that if the local "customs" are different than the written manual, do the local "customs", or stick out like a sore thumb.

ilyazhito should not seek advice regarding local mechanics from any of us. We don't work where he works. Written manual questions? Sure we can help, but he can always look it up.

https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.A...=0&w=300&h=300

ilyazhito Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:43am

Guess I'll have to start a new thread: Things the Mechanics Manual Doesn't Tell You. There would then be room for real-life discussion of mechanics.

Raymond mentioned being sideline-oriented in 3-person mechanics in another thread. That is a BIG adjustment from 2-person, because a 2PO trail has to move off the sideline to see his primary area. However, a 3PO trail has a center official to cover the other sideline, and likewise for the C, so there is no need to work off the sideline, except to position adjust.

I have also noticed some Trail and Center officials working higher than expected in 3-person games. I have noticed, because it put the officials in question into bad looks, and led to some questionable calls. Is this a holdover from 2-man? The 2-person trail does tend to be higher than the 28' mark to be able to see the division line, but what is the purpose of being above 28' in 3-man? Would working lower be another 2 to 3 adjustment?

Rich Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:57am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1023198)
Guess I'll have to start a new thread: Things the Mechanics Manual Doesn't Tell You. There would then be room for real-life discussion of mechanics.

Raymond mentioned being sideline-oriented in 3-person mechanics in another thread. That is a BIG adjustment from 2-person, because a 2PO trail has to move off the sideline to see his primary area. However, a 3PO trail has a center official to cover the other sideline, and likewise for the C, so there is no need to work off the sideline, except to position adjust.

I have also noticed some Trail and Center officials working higher than expected in 3-person games. I have noticed, because it put the officials in question into bad looks, and led to some questionable calls. Is this a holdover from 2-man? The 2-person trail does tend to be higher than the 28' mark to be able to see the division line, but what is the purpose of being above 28' in 3-man? Would working lower be another 2 to 3 adjustment?


Let me sum up in one sentence:

Move to have open looks in your primary.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

bob jenkins Fri Jul 20, 2018 03:13pm

Depending on the specific mechanics / wishes of your assigner, you might want to be closer to the division line than any competitive matchup. That could put you higher in T than the 28' mark.

And, that, and FT line extendned for C are just starting points / "home bases." Move to improve (to throw out some camp speak)

And, no, I'm not covering it during pre-game.

BillyMac Fri Jul 20, 2018 05:21pm

Forum Rules ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1023207)
Move to improve.

Always listen to bob.

ilyazhito Thu Aug 02, 2018 09:40pm

RE: Rotations and the Game/Shot Clock, I asked George Williams, an observer for MEAC who was at our camp as a clinician, and he said that rotations late in the shot clock are by crew agreement, but that I should not rotate with 10 seconds or less on the game clock. Apparently, the women's game makes a bigger deal of no rotations with 5 seconds or less on the shot clock than the men's game does.

Raymond Thu Aug 02, 2018 09:44pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1023512)
RE: Rotations and the Game/Shot Clock, I asked George Williams, an observer for MEAC who was at our camp as a clinician, and he said that rotations late in the shot clock are by crew agreement, but that I should not rotate with 10 seconds or less on the game clock. ...

If it's not in the manual, then opinions will vary depending on whom you are working for or in front of. Just be prepared to adjust accordingly.

Freddy Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:14pm

Distinction
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1023513)
If it's not in the manual, then opinions will vary depending on whom you are working for or in front of. Just be prepared to adjust accordingly.

We need to recognize a distinction between approved mechanics, which are stated, explained, and illustrated explicitly in the current NFHS Officials Manual and best practices, which may not be elucidated at length in the NFHS manual but are, as borrowed from and taught by camp clinicians involved with other codes, wise to follow because they put you "in the right place at the right time looking at the right thing to make the right call."

For example, the NFHS Officials Manual doesn't go into any significant detail how C gives it up to the L when drive originating from his PCA results in a block/charge crash on a secondary defender on the way to the basket. My understanding is that this is a predominant NCAA-M mechanic that, though only hinted at in the NFHS manual, makes so much sense that it would probably be counterproductive not to adopt for NFHS.

As always, I reserve the right to be wrong.

Raymond Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:44pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freddy (Post 1023515)
We need to recognize a distinction between approved mechanics, which are stated, explained, and illustrated explicitly in the current NFHS Officials Manual and best practices, which may not be elucidated at length in the NFHS manual but are, as borrowed from and taught by camp clinicians involved with other codes, wise to follow because they put you "in the right place at the right time looking at the right thing to make the right call."

For example, the NFHS Officials Manual doesn't go into any significant detail how C gives it up to the L when drive originating from his PCA results in a block/charge crash in the lane on the way to the basket. My understanding is that this is a predominant NCAA-M mechanic that, though only hinted at in the NFHS manual, makes so much sense that it would probably be counterproductive not to adopt for NFHS.

As always, I reserve the right to be wrong.

C gives it up if it is a Secondary Defender. I know officials who do not like this mechanic if the crash is on the C's side of the paint. They want the C to take it because it's his primary.

Freddy Fri Aug 03, 2018 01:12pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1023516)
C gives it up if it is a Secondary Defender. I know officials who do not like this mechanic if the crash is on the C's side of the paint. They want the C to take it because it's his primary.

Agree. I meant a block/charge crash with a secondary defender on the way to the basket. Revised the comment to reflect that.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:39pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1