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-   -   Adjusting from 2-person to 3-person mechanics (2PO to 3PO) (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/103909-adjusting-2-person-3-person-mechanics-2po-3po.html)

JRutledge Tue Jul 03, 2018 01:22pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1022717)
The main difference is that two-person games follow the mechanics from the two person manual and three-person games follow the mechanics for the three-person manual.

Learn them separately and remember them separately.

Honestly, I think this is spot on. I had to learn both 2 person and 3 person at the same time. I was not a master of either for some time and always willing to learn stuff that takes place in every game. Now it is like riding a bike but still learning little things to make my game better.

Peace

ilyazhito Wed Jul 04, 2018 01:55pm

JRut, did you also learn 3-person through intramurals, or was your association at the time so desperate for bodies at the varsity level that they were willing to throw a young official into a 3-person varsity game with just camp training? It just seems surprising that you would learn both 2 and 3-person mechanics at the same time. If either scenario happened, what you said would make a lot of sense.

I learned 2-person before 3-person (I was already finished with my 2nd year with Board 12 by the time that I went to my first teaching camp and learned the basics of 3-person there), so I did not have to learn 2 systems simultaneously. I started working intramural basketball this season as my scholastic season was winding down, and I had prior knowledge of 3-person from camp, so I was able to work games under the 3-person system without disorientation. As I see it now, I am very comfortable with 2-person, because I have had 3 years of practice, but I only have one year of sporadic 3-person experience. This means that I know my responsibilities in 3-person, but am not yet fluent in 3-person, because I have not had as many opportunities to practice 3PO as 2PO. I'll be going to another camp this August to put the suggestions of the Forum members into practice and see what works, and will try to get as much 3-person scrimmage experience as I can (one association that I work for self-assigns scrimmages). Are there other types of leagues that use 3PO, so that I can be prepared when my time for varsity assignments comes?

JRutledge Wed Jul 04, 2018 02:58pm

I was never an intramural official. I have always been a licensed official in the state of Illinois. I learned by reading the mechanics books and going to camps. When I started there were just starting 3 Person in our state for the playoffs. I learned both mechanics sets at the same time. I was not forced to do anything, I realized that it made more sense to learn both. It was not hard as I did not have to relearn or figure out the differences. I also worked varsity in my first year because of the 3 Person was needed for everyone to learn. Again no magic formula, just watch other levels and figure out the differences and expectations of each position.

Peace

ilyazhito Sat Jul 07, 2018 10:31pm

I understand. If there are any leagues in my area beside intramural and scholastic ball that use 3-person, I'll look to work those, to get more experience with 3PO. I'll also look for potential mentors, and bounce questions off them.

That said, how to reconcile rotating as often as possible with the recommendation from the CCA mens and women's manuals to not rotate with under 5 seconds in the shot clock? I believe the reason behind that recommendation is that a team is very likely to shoot when facing shot clock pressure, and one should not rotate during a shot, to be able to be in position for the rebound. Would a college (or high school, in states with a shot clock) crew rotate as normal, but more quickly, after they had pointed to the shot clock?

JRutledge Sun Jul 08, 2018 02:13am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1022827)
That said, how to reconcile rotating as often as possible with the recommendation from the CCA mens and women's manuals to not rotate with under 5 seconds in the shot clock? I believe the reason behind that recommendation is that a team is very likely to shoot when facing shot clock pressure, and one should not rotate during a shot, to be able to be in position for the rebound. Would a college (or high school, in states with a shot clock) crew rotate as normal, but more quickly, after they had pointed to the shot clock?

Reconcile? What is there to reconcile? Mechanics (again) are guides. There are situations when you have to officiate based on what is in front of you. Not saying you will need to do any rotation at that time, but I cannot think of a time when I was worried about a rotation because of what the shot clock says. If you have done this long enough, you kind of know when they are going to get ready to shoot or drive to the basket, which likely would not need you rotating at all. That can come with 15 seconds on the shot clock. Often the shot clock never gets to that point by the way the game is played today. But hey these are things you worry about often based on these posts, I just do not get why these things are broken down like this in your mind.

Peace

bob jenkins Sun Jul 08, 2018 07:41am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1022827)
That said, how to reconcile rotating as often as possible with the recommendation from the CCA mens and women's manuals to not rotate with under 5 seconds in the shot clock?

There's no conflict. You can't read every statement in isolation.

ilyazhito Sun Jul 08, 2018 01:44pm

I understand the value of rotating often, because you can get better angles on post plays when you move as the lead to the new strong side (or when you move down as the old Trail). Howvere, there seems to me to be a conflict between rotating in all situations, regardless of the shot clock and the recommendation (not order) by CCA to not rotate with <5 seconds on the shot clock. To me, these two statements are contradictory, and I know that a statement and its opposite cannot be true at the same time. That is why I am asking for specific solutions that college (or HS officials with a shot clock) use to solve this specific problem.

I also try to adopt a deliberate approach as the Center in transition, to not put myself out of position, and yet have good timing and angles to make the proper call. In the frontcourt, that changes, as I want to be aggressive in making off-ball calls in my area (or on-ball, should the ball move to my side while I am C). As lead, I try to mirror the ball and have a patient whistle on plays in my area. If I see the C alone, with more players and the ball on his side, I go (unless one of the immediates (pass, shot, dribble drive) happens). As trail, I try to get good position to referee defenders on ball (if the ball is in my area) or off ball, if they are somewhere else. I also try to pick up game and shot clock when I transition, switch, or rotate. Anything else that I need to add to my thought process?

JRutledge Sun Jul 08, 2018 02:13pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1022838)
I understand the value of rotating often, because you can get better angles on post plays when you move as the lead to the new strong side (or when you move down as the old Trail). Howvere, there seems to me to be a conflict between rotating in all situations, regardless of the shot clock and the recommendation (not order) by CCA to not rotate with <5 seconds on the shot clock. To me, these two statements are contradictory, and I know that a statement and its opposite cannot be true at the same time. That is why I am asking for specific solutions that college (or HS officials with a shot clock) use to solve this specific problem.

I also try to adopt a deliberate approach as the Center in transition, to not put myself out of position, and yet have good timing and angles to make the proper call. In the frontcourt, that changes, as I want to be aggressive in making off-ball calls in my area (or on-ball, should the ball move to my side while I am C). As lead, I try to mirror the ball and have a patient whistle on plays in my area. If I see the C alone, with more players and the ball on his side, I go (unless one of the immediates (pass, shot, dribble drive) happens). As trail, I try to get good position to referee defenders on ball (if the ball is in my area) or off ball, if they are somewhere else. I also try to pick up game and shot clock when I transition, switch, or rotate. Anything else that I need to add to my thought process?

Since you have not worked a lot of 3 person and only have done it in intermural situations, I would suggest if you ever go to camp of any kind, do not do what you are doing here at that camp or any camp for that matter. Seriously, if you are at a high school camp, I would not care as a clinician what college does for the most part. If you are at a college camp, no one is going to care what the other gender does. You are only going to likely work one or the other in that setting, so what the Women's CCA Manual does when you are at a Men's camp is going to make that clinician not talk to you anymore (and vice versa). I get your curiosity and wanting to split every hair, but that is annoying when trying to find every little nit to pick about what something might say or not say. These are questions at best for a mentor or a personal conversation, not one that everyone can hear or wants to hear when they are not struggling with these issues. Not because people do not respect your wanting to know, but it does not matter what they say, you have an answer for why there is an issue. Many college camps, you might be lucky you even work a game with a shot clock at all during that camp for a major college conference. I cannot teach you in this setting what to do in every situation in 3 person. There are so many situations that you have to learn from by doing games and getting on the court feedback. When you rotate or not on the shot clock is not something that even many officials are going to even notice in many situations because you are officiating, not eyeballing the shot clock as the lead. Take a deep breath, it is OK to do what you feel is best in some of these situations. When you rotate is ultimately up to you and the crew you work with and what they notice. If someone has an issue with you rotating at a certain point, take it under advisement and do what you feel is best. Been to several camps this summer and this issue never came up, not once.

Peace

Rich Sun Jul 08, 2018 02:26pm

I know you've mentioned that you are on the spectrum (or something like that), so I get that it might be hard for you to let some of these things go.

I hire officials, but only at the HS varsity level. Take this for what it's worth. I do not care what mechanics people use or even if they are correct for the games they are currently working at a camp setting. When I look to hire people, I am looking to answer one question: "Can he/she ref?"

For me, it's about correct calls, how they interact with partners and coaches, and correct calls.

Anyone can officiate a perfect game on paper. Anyone can learn all the different mechanics variations and rules differences. You can demonstrate that to me with thousands of words here and none of it really matters.

I will watch you, probably for 5-10 minutes, and will know whether I want to use you...or not. For many officials, I disqualify them on the first possession (if I see eyes never leaving the ball, I'm moving on).

I'm afraid this preoccupation with knowing everything there is to know while off the court is going to hold you back in your progression. I could be wrong and hope I am, but it's my gut feel.

ilyazhito Mon Jul 09, 2018 06:57am

Au contraire, mon frere. I seek to learn OFF the court so that I can get better ON the court for any contests that I am assigned. I have to switch rule sets all the time when I am umpiring baseball, because I might work a high school game by NFHS rules one day, a men's league game by professional rules the next, and a travel game that mixes high school and college rules the following day, so my remembering rules differences make sense.
My asking about rotations as they relate to the shot clock is NOT idle curiosity, because DC and MD (the jurisdictions where I officiate high school basketball) use a shot clock for freshman, JV, and varsity games, the latter of which are officiated using 3-person NFHS mechanics (with signals borrowed from the CCA Women's Manual to deal specifically with shot clock situations; DC public schools use a 30/15 shot clock, as do MD. Private schools use NCAAM shot clock and throw-in spot rules for boys (30/20), and NCAAW shot clock rules for girls (30/15).). If I work a varsity game this year (as an emergency replacement, most likely) or next year, I would need to store this situation in my memory bank to not be confused when I encounter it in a real game. I have experience with 3-person (intramurals and camps), and with the shot clock (DC and WCAC Girls subvarsity games), but not with the two combined (3 person game with a shot clock).
The only reason that I mentioned both the men's and women's manuals is because the instruction to not rotate late in the shot clock is present in both books. I would not use women's mechanics (starting the clock with a fist, signalling the corner 3-pointer as Lead, or switching tableside on fouls) at a men's camp, or vice versa.
If anyone else has any constructive suggestions about 3-person mechanics, I would be open to hear (and implement) them. When I officiate (or watch other officials, live or on videos), I learn what to do (or not to do). So, learning for me is a combination of practice, modelling, and receiving and implementing new information.

Raymond Mon Jul 09, 2018 07:53am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1022867)
Au contraire, mon frere. I seek to learn OFF the court so that I can get better ON the court for any contests that I am assigned. I have to switch rule sets all the time when I am umpiring baseball, because I might work a high school game by NFHS rules one day, a men's league game by professional rules the next, and a travel game that mixes high school and college rules the following day, so my remembering rules differences make sense.
My asking about rotations as they relate to the shot clock is NOT idle curiosity, because DC and MD (the jurisdictions where I officiate high school basketball) use a shot clock for freshman, JV, and varsity games, the latter of which are officiated using 3-person NFHS mechanics (with signals borrowed from the CCA Women's Manual to deal specifically with shot clock situations; DC public schools use a 30/15 shot clock, as do MD. Private schools use NCAAM shot clock and throw-in spot rules for boys (30/20), and NCAAW shot clock rules for girls (30/15).). If I work a varsity game this year (as an emergency replacement, most likely) or next year, I would need to store this situation in my memory bank to not be confused when I encounter it in a real game. I have experience with 3-person (intramurals and camps), and with the shot clock (DC and WCAC Girls subvarsity games), but not with the two combined (3 person game with a shot clock).
The only reason that I mentioned both the men's and women's manuals is because the instruction to not rotate late in the shot clock is present in both books. I would not use women's mechanics (starting the clock with a fist, signalling the corner 3-pointer as Lead, or switching tableside on fouls) at a men's camp, or vice versa.
If anyone else has any constructive suggestions about 3-person mechanics, I would be open to hear (and implement) them. When I officiate (or watch other officials, live or on videos), I learn what to do (or not to do). So, learning for me is a combination of practice, modelling, and receiving and implementing new information.

You're trying to absorb too much information. You need to get to camp and let us know what your feedback is. All the other questions you are asking can be answered by acquiring the proper publications. Regardless, no one looking for talent in camp is going to care if you know every manual inside out. They want to do know if you can recognize fouls and violations, if you can handle players and coaches, are you in shape, and can you run up and down the court athletically.

If you keep on asking SO MANY questions looking for SO MUCH detail, people here are going to stop responding.

ilyazhito Thu Jul 12, 2018 08:42am

I found out that not rotating late in the shot clock is an evaluation criterion (as well as a suggestion in the CCA Manual) for NCAAW and NCAAM, so I will not rotate if there are 5 seconds left on the shot clock in any HS shot clock game, unless my commissioner or supervisor says otherwise.

That said, any other things an official transitioning from 2 to 3-person needs to know? We've covered switches (tableside or opposite, depending on state/level), responsibilities of the Center and Lead officials, primary area coverage, and rotations. In 3-person, Trail is not automatically the calling official on last-second shots. It's either the outside official opposite the table (OTO, can be C or T) (NFHS/NCAAM) or Center official (women).

Here are some other things I have noticed about working 3-person games. Other than standing at different places, or having clock responsibilities for the initial jump ball, I haven't noticed much of a difference in pre-game duties or jump ball duties as the U1 or U2. I know that R is supposed to administer the alternating-possession throw-ins for the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th quarters, but the position of the umpires is undetermined (obviously, one becomes Lead opposite the table and the other becomes C tableside to start the appropriate quarter after leaving the blocks to retrieve their respective teams, intermission (except halftime) being just another 60-second timeout in high school). I guess that the umpires go to the block closest to where they were when the quarter ended (In 2-person, both the R and U1 are at the division line opposite the table, in 60-second timeout positions with the ball coming in opposite the table, and the R administering the throw-in), and go from there. For halftime, they would just go to the blocks on the same side as they were when watching warm-ups.

Is there anything else that I am missing?

JRutledge Thu Jul 12, 2018 09:42am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1023050)
I found out that not rotating late in the shot clock is an evaluation criterion (as well as a suggestion in the CCA Manual) for NCAAW and NCAAM, so I will not rotate if there are 5 seconds left on the shot clock in any HS shot clock game, unless my commissioner or supervisor says otherwise.

Found out from whom? Forgive me I have been doing college ball over a little over 10 years and never have had anyone say a single word to me about this situation. So maybe you are right but never heard anyone complain about an official that did or did not rotate based on the shot clock situation. Went to a college camp last year where every game was with a shot clock (we applied the new rules before the season) and not one comment was about rotations and the shot clock. Most of the comments as stated her before were about calls, calling in and out of your primary, why you didn't rotate or having a late whistle. I doubt seriously any supervisor would even say anything unless you feel you have to ask.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1023050)

Is there anything else that I am missing?

There is a lot you are missing and a lot we will never be able to tell you. You have to work and be instructed. Because the biggest thing that is going to happen to you, you will go to a camp and one clinician will tell you to do something and the very next game another clinician will tell you something a little different about the same thing. What do you do then? And going around telling them what is in the CCA Mechanics book they might not use is not the best way to go.

I worked a tournament yesterday that had a women's college camp as part of the overall tournament. I can assure you that the Women's side cares less about what the Men's side does and certainly that is the case with the Men's camps.

Peace

Raymond Thu Jul 12, 2018 09:55am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1023050)
... (In 2-person, both the R and U1 are at the division line opposite the table, in 60-second timeout positions with the ball coming in opposite the table, and the R administering the throw-in)...

Good luck with this. I would be generous if I were to say 5% of my partners in 2-man games have done this mechanic properly.

SC Official Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:02am

With all due respect, we don't need to read five paragraph essays telling us what you've learned in intramurals and your camps. People on this forum are happy to answer questions, but we're not interested in hearing every detail of your officiating experiences or what you learned at camp. Find a mentor and use him/her for that. When I see the length of your posts I immediately lose interest (just ask BillyMac how people feel about some of his posts). Not to mention a lot of the information you're telling us, we learned a long time ago. It's nothing new or revolutionary. Most everyone on this forum knows the rules, mechanics, and philosophies for the levels they work very thoroughly. Sorry if that's harsh, but it's the truth; we've been doing this a lot longer than you have.

You're going to have to figure some things out on your own and learn that at the end of the day, no one is going to be able to answer every question you have down to the fine print. Also, you can read and regurgitate the manuals and rules all you want; at the end of the day, if you aren't able to do what your assigners or camp clinicians want, you're not going to be pleased with the results. And if you come back with "but that's not what the manual says," you can kiss any chance of getting hired goodbye.

You would do better by condensing your posts and figuring some things out on your own.


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