Can an NCAA Basketball Official Work Both Sexes?
 

In high school, there is no such thing as a "boys official" or a "girls official", unless your state has separate boards for boys and girls basketball (such as NY State: Boys boards are IAABO, Girls are through NYSGBOA).
In college, most officials are assigned to either the Men's Basketball staff or the Women's Basketball staff for each conference.

However, is it possible for a college basketball official to work both sexes? If so, how would I go about doing that? I know that men's and women's basketball are different games, and have different rules and mechanics. If any "double duty" officials exist, they would have to switch rules and mechanics for each game, but if it can be done between college and high school, then I believe that there is no reason why an official can't switch between men's and women's college games.

For the record, I am a high school basketball official with three years of experience, including one year of sub-varsity (Freshman/JV) and two years of middle school basketball under my belt. I live in MD and call basketball for Board 12 (MoCo public and private MS, MoCo Rec and I-270 League) and MBOA (DCIAA and WCAC Freshman/JV, Alexandria Rec). I have also worked intramural basketball for UMD RecWell, to practice my 3-man mechanics. My short-term goal is to work varsity games for MBOA next season, my medium-term goal is to become a college official at the junior college or DIII level, and my long-term goal is to become an NBA/FIBA official, if possible.

I believe that working both sexes would make me a better official, because men and women have different styles of play and different tendencies. AFAIK, many NBA officials go through both the WNBA and the G League before they are hired to the full-time staff, so high-level women's basketball experience would be beneficial. This is because the NBA uses concepts from both men's and women's basketball (NCAAW has the Lower Defensive Box, which also appears in the NBA). However, many camps are either for men's officials or for women's officials. What would I need to do to reach a high level of officiating competency for both sexes? Does CBOA (College Basketball Officials Association) assign both men's and women's officials, or would I need to join a separate organization to work women's college ball?

I know that it is a bit early in my career for me to ask questions like this, but I want this thread to be out here for the benefit of other officials who are faced with making a decision between working men's or women's college basketball (or both, hopefully).

Thank you!

Not a chance. Choose which path you want to go and be committed. If you decide to switch, I’ve always heard that it’s easier to go from men’s to women’s than vice-versa (just what I’ve heard, I can’t attest to that).

And just for the record, there are multiple states where officials are free to work only girls games or only boys games for high school. Multiple posters on here can attest to that.

You could do that in Oregon, but you wouldn't get any post-season assignments. One of the requirements for state playoff eligibility is that you worked at least 3 games of each gender. The reason for that is that the tournaments are dual-gender...the same officials work the games for both the boys and the girls from the quarters to the finals and they don't want a person's first boys/girls game of the year to be one of those.

Sports officials registered by the OhioHSAA and MichiganHSAA are independent contractors and are free to accept and decline regular season assignments as one sees fit. An official can choose to officiate only boys' or only girls' or both during the regular season. Officials may choose to be considered for only the boys' tournament or only the girls' tournament or both tournaments as long as they meet the number of games officiated requirement for which ever tournament(s) for which they wish to be considered.

MTD, Sr.

There is in our state. Many if not most top officials do not work both genders. For one I think working both have different standards and if you are good at one, you are not likely good at another. It has nothing to do with state boards, I simply do not work girls basketball. And I have some assignors that assign both and never consider me for girls games.

There is such a thing and it is bad when a girl's official works boy's games. The coaches will point that out much of the time. I worked one girls game this past year as a favor of a very good friend. I would not be called a girl's official by any means.

Peace

Up through this season, a particular D2 conference in the mid-Atlantic was notable for officials getting assigned to games on the wrong side. Hopefully there will be separate supervisors hired so that problem will go away.

In practice, you need to pick a side and pursue that path. You can't compare it to the NBA/WNBA/G-League path because they all utilize the same rules, court coverage, and mechanics.

SC Official said: "Not a chance. Choose which path you want to go and be committed. If you decide to switch, I’ve always heard that it’s easier to go from men’s to women’s than vice-versa (just what I’ve heard, I can’t attest to that)."

Is it not possible to work both because the games are on the same day? If that is the case, I would understand. What are the advantages of officiating men's basketball over women's basketball? What are the advantages of officiating women's basketball over men's basketball? I am male, so I don't believe that I would be fast-tracked within women's basketball as would a female official with a similar background. Is there a particular reason why the people you heard told you that it is easier to go from men's basketball to women's?

JRutledge said: "For one I think working both have different standards and if you are good at one, you are not likely good at another."

What are the "different standards" that you are referring to? Is it more mechanics, or do officials tend to call fouls/violations different in M basketball vs F basketball?

To any current college officials on the Forum, which side did you choose, and why did you make that choice? On a different note, who is the women's equivalent of CBOA on the East Coast, if anyone?

I disagree with this. While working each gender presents its own challenges, there's no reason one official can't be competent at both. I rarely see an official and think "wow he's good at calling boys but sucks at calling girls." The reverse is sometimes true due to the reality that some officials can keep up with girls and are overmatched in boys games.

I like to think I'm good at calling girls games despite the fact that I prefer boys (South Carolina officials work G/B doubleheaders 99% of the time). However, I refuse to call a foul every time a clumsy high school girl falls to the ground like some officials, coaches, and players expect me to. I call advantage/disadvantage in girls and boys games and not every snippet of contact.

Has nothing to do with games being on the same day. Has (almost) everything to do with the fact that once you get to the college level, assigners (and coaches) don't want you mixing. It doesn't matter how competent you are at keeping rules, mechanics, and philosophical differences straight.

Whether you think it's fair or not is a different discussion. But you're not going to be a pioneer, so you might as well choose a side and be completely devoted to it.

Anytime a girl falls there is a reaction as if they could not have fallen for no other reason but something illegal done to them. It hilarious the times I have had a girl's coach go nuts on a play where a boy's coach would never even raise their voice. It really appears that there is still this attitude that girls are not athletic, so when they do things or things happen to them it is like "We have to protect them" mentality, where a boy is told to "Get up and stop complaining." And I am talking about from a coach or fan perspective, not from the official's perspective. And when you do not call every little touch a foul, then you are somehow letting too much go or not calling the game right.

I remember I had a coach that now coaches boys basketball, go nuts on a play where his shooter only was touched by the jerseys rubbing together. The shooter did not fall, have their motion altered by any contact, let alone illegal contact and he acted like his girl got murdered. He has since moved to the boy's side as a coach and never complains about that kind of contact.

I worked women's college first because I was asked to work college. I did not like it as I never imagined when I started officiating doing girls or women's basketball. So when I finally got hired on the Men's side, that is where I wanted to be or saw myself being. One of the main reasons I did not like women's basketball were the officials. I would work with guys that did not have a clue or the courage to call a simple foul.

I will give another example. I worked a Division 3 scrimmage once with an official in the early 2000s. It happened to be 2 man at the time with a long time official, but a guy newer to college basketball at the time. In the first half of this scrimmage which was only 18-minute clocks between two teams, we had 6 fouls. I called all 6 fouls and probably 4 right in front of my partner because he would not call a girl getting completely knocked down. Then this official had the nerve at halftime to say to me, "It looks like we are calling a different game." I was like, I am done working women's games if this is the mentality of the people I am working with. And I believe a couple of years later I stopped working women's college altogether after getting hired in a Men's conference. The guy was so incompetent that he guess thought that calling less was better and could not find a single foul in a 2 man game. I might not call much in a 3 person game, but I do not think I have ever not called a single foul in a half in a 2 man game and with a shot clock.

Peace

That is fine that you disagree. We all have our opinions on the matter. But the boys game is almost guaranteed to be near or above the rim, which has a different set of challenges for officials with contact and the ability of the players physically. Also, boys are much faster at the top levels than girls. So you have to be physically able to keep up along with having the judgment to see plays. I see many girl's officials that would struggle just keeping up with kids that will be D1 players. It is obvious when you look at many of the officials (at least here) that have to work a girl's games.

One of the reasons I said this, is because there are officials that will call every little touch a foul and that will get you killed in a boys game. The coaches will go nuts if you call those situations, especially when those are not clearly illegal events. You dribble into three defenders and call a foul when the defenders did nothing wrong does not fly in the boys game.

I know some are going to disagree. Even the last possession there are many officials that wanted a foul (that work girl's games) and the ones that work either higher level college or men's games, tend to think there was no foul by the Notre Dame player. The expectations are just different.

Peace

I tend to struggle more with girls coaches -- mainly because I call plays the same in boys and girls games. And as JRut said, a lot of the girls coaches think contact = foul.

I'm with you, but there are plenty of officials that have no problem making the adjustment between what's expected in girls games and what's expected in boys games. Just because you're good at one doesn't mean you can't be good at the other, even though you may still be "better" at a certain gender. And I would guess that in most states officials aren't given a choice between working girls or boys. Therefore the issue of coaches not wanting a "girls official" on their boys game or vice-versa, like you have in Illinois, is not likely to be problematic.


Most of the girls coaches in my area are not smart and thankfully don't say much. I've had issues with a couple male girls coaches who I whacked but my girls games are normally uneventful when it comes to coaches. I told those coaches something along the lines of "I will not bail out your player for tripping over her own feet," and of course they didn't like that response (I'm an honest guy, to a fault sometimes).

But I'm with you. I call advantage/disadvantage in girls and boys. I don't officiate the presence of contact or lack thereof except when it comes to the automatics.

The ones that are not smart are the ones that say TOO much, in my experience.

I call the game the same with the same philosophies. I do not call all contact a foul. I put a premium on the contact being illegal before I call something. That means it must have some disadvantage and not penalizing bigger and stronger players which appears to happen all the time in girl's basketball. So I am not often considered very good at the girl's side and why I stay away from it almost entirely.

Peace

As a ref, you can get lots of really good experience with recognizing and calling all types of angles, and configurations on "held balls" in girl's/women's games. Lots of held balls and AP arrow action occurs for sure.

I agree with that for lower levels, but does this happen in NCAA women's basketball?

Besides experience with held ball situations, are there any advantage to working women's basketball? AFAIK, some women's mechanics are lazy (not stopping the clock on OOB plays, 5-second violations, or 10-second violations; using the fist to start the clock; standing in the lane as the Lead on the first free throw), but some ideas make sense (coming up with one decision on block-charge plays).

Conversely, what are the advantages to working men's basketball? Is there any ideas from the men's game that make sense, or bad mechanics habits that men's officials get into?

What you call lazy, I call decisive -- a crisp directional point without the "stop clock" mechanic is far better than the stop clock and subsequent point.

Standing on the block on the first free throw -- give me one reason why that's lazy rather than an intelligent mechanics choice. Nothing's happening and it saves steps. Smart.

Standing on the block does not put you in a good position to see lane violations or displacement in the lane on free throws. The approved position in the NFHS and CCA Men's Basketball manual does. This is an article that explains more about why you should not stand in the lane as the Lead Lead, They Didn’t Vacate that Lower Lane Space for You to Stand In. See https://www.myvirtualofficialsassociation.com/?p=626 for more information on stopping the clock. The reason why the NFHS and CCA men's manuals require stopping the clock is because the "stop the clock" signal is what technically stops play, as well as reminds the clock operator to stop the clock, and gives the official time to process the play before making a decision.

31 years of officiating and almost 20 on this forum and you might be the first person to talk to me like I'm 4 years old.

It's the first of multiple shots. How many violations have you seen or called on the first of multiple shots? You know they don't stand there for the final shot, right?

The whistle stops play. If I blow my whistle and don't raise my hand, does the clock stop? Yes, of course it does.

All Politics Is Local (Tip O'Neill) ...
 

As usual here on the Forum, "When in Rome ...".

If it's accepted, and approved, in your area, go for it.

We've got a local board here in Connecticut that allows, in a two person game, the lead, on a front court end line throwin, to bounce the ball across the paint so as to not cause the trail to move across the basket line.

I'm sure that they could find a reason to throw stones at us.

If it makes you happy
It can't be that bad
If it makes you happy
Then why the hell are you so sad?
Sheryl Crow

All those are esthetics. I have no desire to just point on out of bounds plays. Minor issue and almost irrelevant issue. Women's basketball can have that stuff.

Peace

My thoughts
 

I've been following this thread with interest and enjoyment as I do believe the O.P. is being sincere in his interest. As someone that works NCAA-W and high level varsity boys (including significant postseason assignments) I will say this: at the college level, you have to commit. At the high school level, I bounce between genders without issue. My real issue is calling a HS girls game-- I want to call it like a college game but the coaches in our area want it called like we call a boys game (more advantage/disadvantage, fewer absolutes).

One of my mentors several years back said it best: he told me my personality is a better fit for the women's college game...and he's right. I am of the opinion that there is more camaraderie among collegiate women's officials than men's...it is competitive, but not cut throat.

WBB officiating has come a long way in recent years and while gender and race will always play a role in assignments and advancement, the cream always rises to the top...it just might take longer for some compared to others.

A camp clinician said it best: getting here is the easy part, it's staying there that's toughest.

MTD:
Stop with the theoretical equal opportunity canned response and get down to the real nitty-gritty as it applies in Ohio and Michigan.

How many officials, who were selected to do Boy's as well as Women's postseason assignments would choose Women's games over Boy's?

or vice versa?

You are certainly in a position to make meaningful comments on these questions. What do you think?

Rich, I'm sorry if I made you feel that way. You asked me to give you a reason why standing in the lane on free throws is lazy, and I gave you one.

We could go on endlessly about hypotheticals (What if no one hears the whistle, and you have not given the stop-the clock signal?), but JRutledge put it best when he said that "all those are esthetics".

Matt, what made you choose the women's side over the men's side, and why do you say that a women's college game is called in absolutes?

Not sure who told you that one? Seriously, it is funny how pure everyone that works women's basketball tries to act. Please, there are so many women's officials that get upset by who works the D1 level and who gets passed over.

Actually, some of my better friends that helped me were Men's D1 officials. There is just more competition because there are more officials trying to get there.

Peace

that's because the poster is about 4 years old (or at least a lot closer to it than you or I). We all had "all the answers" when we were that age -- we just didn't spam them out to every discussion board.

And, no timer ever looks for the raised hand before stopping the clock.

Not to speak for Matt, but it's because of the emphasis and evaluation placed on the "absolute" fouls listed in the rule book. These are (about) the same in NCAAM/NCAAW/NFHS but are called more strictly in NCAAW (at least as opposed to NFHS -- I haven't watched enough NCAAM to know for sure). If two hands go on, NCAAW wants a foul called -- and the pre-season and in-season videos reflect that.

NCAA-M and HS officials do a horrific job in regards to hands on/bumping/riding ball-handlers. I haven't watched enough NCAA-W to know what it is like there, so I'll trust your opinion on that.

I assume (yes, I know what that means) that the officials, as a group, are calling what the coaches / supervisors want, again, as a group.

So (generally), in NCAAW, if you call the arm-bar, no one says anything (except to yell at the player). If you don't call it, the coach yells at you.

But, generally, in NFHS, if you call, it, the coach yells at you. If you don't call it, no one says anything.

I think it is about the same in my observation. I think defenders are doing things that make it very difficult to call because it might not fit the rules that are the automatics. I also feel like there are a lot of ball handlers selling their actions which also makes it difficult to get some consistency sometimes (last night's game for example). I do not think it is widely different. I do think every time a girl or women's basketball player is touched someone wants a foul. I think that is more prevalent in the woman's game than when boys or men are playing.

Peace

Actually, in both my HS and college games, I hear chirping from coaches about contact on the ball handlers.

The Ohio Boys' and Girl's Tournament progression is Sectionals, District, Regionals, and Finals. The Officials for the Regionals and Finals are chosen by the State before the Season even starts because an Official cannot work a Regional and a Final in the same year and can only work a Regional or a Final in either Boys' or Girls', not both. An Official can officiate both Sectional and District Tournaments every year and can officiate both Boys' and Girls' Sectionals and District Tournaments every year.

In Ohio, there are two separate lists of tournament officials: One list of Officials for the Boys' Tournament and one list of Officials for the Girls' Tournament and I would venture to say that the vast majority of Tournament Officials are on both lists. Assignments are made based upon the Officials who are available on a given day and the assignments are made starting with the highest rated Officials available for that day; it should be remembered that on any given day the number of officials available will almost certainly out number the number of officials needed. The Officials for the Sectional and District Tournaments are chosen by the TD from the the Tournament List of Officials.

MTD, Sr.


P.S. And now that you have read my follow up comment to your question you can please apologize for the condescending tone of your question in the first place, especially since my response was not canned. As far as Michigan is concerned, I have never paid attention to its procedure because as a resident of Ohio I am automatically not eligible to officiate in its Boys' and Girls' Tournaments.

Rules as written
 

THIS.

NCAAW coaches are told that officials will enforce the rules as written. Do I like the fact that minor contact that doesn't necessary affect play is to be called a foul? No. But I'm not charged with injecting my opinion into the adjudication of the rules.

Essentially, the NCAAW rules have eliminated a certain degree of judgment from the game. I have my theories as to why, but this isn't the place to share them.

I don't work many HS games, in fact I try to work as few as possible, but I agree with the statement. However, I would say in my college games, there are very few complaints when the directives regarding contact on ball handlers are enforced, even strictly enforced. In those games I might get the occasional make sure it is called the same way on the other end nonsense, but no real complaints. In HS games on the other hand, the coaches complain when these fouls are not called, and the same coaches complain when these fouls are called.

Technically NFHS and NCAAM have also eliminated the same degree of judgment, as well–the “automatics” are the same across all the rulesets.

I guess it’s just that on the men’s side those “absolutes” aren’t “absolute” in application.

Actually, if I really want to make a HS coach's head explode, I just start calling illegal screens as I would in my college games. Most of the HS coaches have no idea what the screening rules are and they seem to very rarely enforced by many of the officials in my area.

They get over it. ;)

Peace

Do you work men's or women's college games? If men's then maybe J.D. (Collins) is emphasizing the automatic fouls as much as June (Courteau) is, and the discussion about "absolutes" may be less relevant than originally thought, at least for your conference.

RE: Illegal screens, I haven't seen too many of those in the (sub-varsity) high school games that I have worked, but I have called them in intramural games, especially as the trail or center official when I was off-ball. Perhaps 3-man mechanics allow better coverage of screens than 2 man, but that's a discussion for another post.

I work NCAA-M. I have absolutely zero interest in any aspect of women's basketball. I am thankful that I live in a state where you can choose to work just boys, just girls, or both, because if I was forced to do both when I was starting as a HS official, I would have quit long before I made it to college basketball.

Is it due to the style of play, or is it due more to expectations of how boys games should be called vs girls games, as JRutledge said? Or is there a different reason?
I'm interested to know, because I don't have a strong preference for either men's or women's basketball yet.

Taiqua Stewart, MEAC Women's supervisor, worked Men's ball for a year or two back around the turn of the century. If you ever run into her at camp you should ask her about it. I also believe an official name Felicia Grinter worked some Men's ball in SWAC about 10 years ago.

Also, sometime since Y2K there was an official in the Big Sky conference who worked both sides and maybe worked both conference tournaments.

Unless you are working in majors (and MAYBE some mid-majors), the level of play in women's basketball is just not great. And if you are working DII or below, it's bodies all over the floor every single play, and high pitched screams the entire game after every made basket.

Again who works women's or men's is not always your personal choice. Just like Raymond pointed out, there are people that have done both, but that is not the norm or their choice. Someone has to hire you first of all and if you are hired with one side, the other side will likely not give you a chance in most areas. I started out as a Women's college official and had to give that up when moving to the Men's side. Many small school supervisors are former or current D1 officials and they tend to not allow people to work a gender if they are working the other side, which means they have to hire you.

Also, the biggest hurdle I see in calling women's ball compared to men's ball is the simple fact that above the rim is very prominent on the men's side and it is hardly there on the women's side. The athleticism is different and the speed of the game can be very different. I know many men's officials that still do high school stop doing girl's basketball alone for that reason. The expectations are different even though people here or in our community often do not want to admit that fact.

Peace

The D3 men's officials that work HS for me have been told by their supervisors (not all of them, but more than 1) that they cannot work girls HS hoops.

I agree that a certain level of judgment has been taken out of the womens' and now, the mens side had adopted it because of one simple, ridiculous theory that the NCAA feels - and that is, they believe that us calling more fouls on freedom of movement, multiple touches above the FT line extended, will somehow, enhance scoring. . .

I've said this for years and years now, the major fundamental flaw in the rules for college basketball is that they have committees that consist of coaches only who make these rules up. . .that in and of itself, lends to where you see these what the majority of officials determine, are contact that doesn't create any disadvantage at all, to having to be called now. . .

I feel that the rules committees should consist of coaches, but also, former officials or current/former supervisors, and also, athletic directors, so that way, there's more diversity and common sense from all phases of the game being discussed and possibly, implemented. . .

Insane how low-level college supervisors often like to act like they’re assigning games with 4-figure checks.

That wouldn’t fly in the southeast where working G/B doubleheaders is the norm and not optional in many states (GA, SC, and NC for sure). No low-level college assigner worth his salt would try that without getting backlash.

I began my officiating career with a female friend who advanced in the college ranks well before I did. She was working multiple lower division conferences and one mid-Major HBCU D1 conference and working conference tournaments. She got picked up in another mid-Major that paid more than the HBCU D1 but told me she was bored working those games b/c those games just weren't that good and those was no excitement generated by the fans.


Additionally, she quit working HS ball b/c our commissioner refused to use her in BV games. She was a protégé of Taiqua Stewart (whom I mentioned earlier) and more than capable of working BV games.

Well that might be something that is local too. In the conferences I work, we are not explicitely told to stop doing anything like that, but it is understood if you want to continue to work Men's college, you might have to give something up on the back end. And if you don't, then they will find someone else that will. One of my conferences tell guys he does not want them doing a high school game before his college games. Again if you do not comply, he will find someone else.

Rich lives in Wisconsin and I am sure he gets guys that work in the same conferneces that are in my area that have teams in both Wisconsin, Illinois and Indiana. Neither of these states have this doubleheader mess that is in other parts of the country. So it is not quite insane, it is a choice. And again, they have people that will gladly comply with that request and do not like doing girl's basketball at all anyway. It is not a hard decision.

Peace

My "insane" comment was more of just a general reference to JUCO/NAIA/D-3 assigners thinking way more highly of themselves and their sub-$200 games than they ought to.

I agree with you that there will always be officials willing to do whatever it takes to get "prestigious" games. Most college assigners don't need every official on their roster. But if a sub-D2 assigner down here tried that "you can't work high school" nonsense down here, it just wouldn't fly. If you're not working anything above D-3 basketball, to me it wouldn't be worth it to give up high school ball (which would mean giving up girls and boys down here) to drive significantly further for empty gyms and not a ton of money, and I bet a lot of sub-D2 officials I know would feel the same way.

The comment was about girl's basketball only. I know many officials that see the tea-leaves and they give up things based on their personal lives and personal goals. In the three states I mentioned, there is a lot of competition to work D3 and D2, let alone NAIA and JUCO. Officials have to figure out how to manage all those schedules. And even boy's high school can go if the person is in the right situation. And in this area, not all games are incredibly far away either. More schools and more opportunities to work college ball. But also a one-game check in college is significantly bigger than any high school check and you might travel farther in some cases.

Again it is at the end it is about your personal goals. Not everyone is trying to be a State Final official. There was an official that just worked the 4A State Finals in my state that said he was not taking any more high school playoffs because of the college opportunities that he has had to turn down to work the State Playoffs. And maybe when you take away choices of people, you eliminate who officiates at the high school level.

Peace

So, men's basketball is better at the lower college levels (DII/DIII/NAIA/JUCO)? I'll keep that in mind.

Define 'better'
 

Not sure what your definition of 'better' is.

One thing to bear in mind is that the caliber of D2/D3 ball will vary greatly based on where you're located. I worked D3 (women's) in New England... there were 8 conferences in my region, and over 50 D3 schools within an hour's drive of my house.

Now, I'm in the Midwest, there are four leagues in which I work...and the caliber of play is generally much stronger. I disagree with the 'bodies on the floor on every play' statement. Sure, the lower-tier schools in a couple of the conferences aren't super talented but it's not like every game is a trainwreck.

The men's games I've watched (because there are doubleheaders on weekends and some weeknights) are typically up and down, lots of possessions, some more successful than others...no clue what it's like to work them - but the coaches are typically much more animated, from what I've seen.

It's a personal preference and I encourage you to find a mentor or two to help you with your journey.

Some of tnose officials get assignments from me, and some don't.

I get why they can't do girls games, but a lot of officials would prefer doing more boys games. With a few exceptions, you either work both for me or neither.


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When you are an independent contractor, we all have a choice. This does not pay me enough (with the headache) to be told what I am going to leave my house to do. Maybe if we gave officials choices, they might be more of us around. But one of the reasons I think we lose officials is because we act like they have to decide what they should do. And I am talking about the high school level. Someone doing college has made several choices in that process.

Peace

Perhaps if I had a shortage at the varsity level....but in hoops right now I don't.

But as an official I work both and then get 60% girls games from some assigners cause other assigners cater to people with requests for one gender only, mostly boys. So I try not to do a lot of this where I can avoid it.


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Let's be real, we're only independent contractors in form and only somewhat in substance. Sure, we can choose to work for whatever assigners we want, until we get told we're not allowed to by a different assigner.

"You don't have to work for an assigner if you don't want to follow his rules." Guess what? I can quit my job if I don't want to follow my employer's rules, too. That's no different from being an employee.

And I'm not saying I want to be employed by my state association or an assigner. Just pointing out that saying "we're independent contractors" is just a formality and not really representative of what often goes on in this business.

Perfect examples of that are TBOA and Board 94 in southeast Virginia. You should hear some of the horror stories in regards to how they manipulate and control officials. The #1 reason I chose to commute to Richmond when I was need of a public school schedule 6 years ago.

I always thought one of the main functions of Arbiter was to let supervisors know when you are available to work.

I am not saying so much you, but the places that are doing these doubleheaders probably are having those issues. I know just trying to get to a game earlier in the day with work and other family obligations it is hard enough to do one game, but two?

And again, people are going to ultimately make choices of things they wish to do. Yes maybe not a problem at the varsity level and we do not have a shortage in this area either right now. It might be a problem down the road if you tell people what they have to do to work for what we get paid at the high school level. I think we focus so much on why officials would not work high school games because of sportsmanship or pay, but this to me also annoys officials as they have other obligations. I am personally exhausted working more than 4 days a week during the season and certainly do not like it when I have to work things I choose to not want to do.

Peace

In our state we have a strong independent contractor law that has gone after associations for trying to play this game. I am not suggesting that people sue to get a certain right, but if you just quit, then that does not help anyone either. So yes we are independent contractors on my end, because I know I can say no to any potential assignment. But then again no one is telling me what kind of games I can or cannot work here. It is truely a choice. ;)

Peace

I have had some crews burn bridges by telling me they will only do boys and then getting angry when I say that I might not have anything for them then. Others have earned that, but when people working 4-5 years try to tell me that's what they're doing, I wish them luck.

My point was and is this -- just cause someone's an IC and wants to line up their schedule a certain way doesn't mean I'm obligated to fulfill those desires.

We're a small school conference and some people avoid us for that reason -- then again, we pay more than just about every conference in the area and I have no shortage of people who want to work varsity contests.

Desire to work for us will usually trump ability if the better official is high maintenance.

Fines ...
 

If we do not accept any high school assignment on a day/time that we have not closed off on Arbiter, it's a $15.00 fine.

Does the law come down on assigners (high school or college) who tell their officials "you can't work for so-and-so" or "you can't work girls basketball" or "you can't work high school"? Doubtful.

Welcome to the joy of a closed system.


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You remember the person that told you that is not from my state and it is not a high school situation that is a college one. And they did not say "You can't work high school...." according to Rich, they said, "You cannot work girls games." That is a difference on some level to me. College staffs are much smaller than and there are many people trying to get in, so if you are unwilling to do things that supervisor wants, they will get someone else. College staffs are much more selective based on many things. And there is not a shortage for college officials to cover games.

I have interviewed recently for positions after a move in my industry and there are companies that say "You cannot do....anymore" and they are not a W2 job. So there are demands they can make, but some are not reasonable. And since no one is getting rich off of working high school games, I can assume that this is one of the things that would get in the way of keeping people if they complain about things like "politics."



Peace

Incorrect Call said: "Unless you are working in majors (and MAYBE some mid-majors), the level of play in women's basketball is just not great. And if you are working DII or below, it's bodies all over the floor every single play, and high pitched screams the entire game after every made basket."

I wanted to clarify if he meant that lower-level men's basketball (JUCO/NAIA/DIII/DII) has a higher level of play (more scoring, more disciplined defensive play, fewer fouls) than comparable women's basketball.

What made you want to choose NCAAW basketball over NCAAM basketball? Is it because you never did IAABO ball in MA (Girls are non-IAABO there, unless I am mistaken), you found mentors that led you into women's collegiate basketball, or is there another reason?

Why would a men's college staff at the DIII level insist that its members not work girls high school games, or vice versa? Do the college assigners think that by having their members work girls high school games that these members will want to compete with them and join the women's staff of the same conferences? Do some college assigners insist that their officials work no high school games for the same reason, to reduce competition? Or is there a different reason for these bans?

At some point, the college assignors do not want their officials working HS games. It is a matter of perception of the college coaches (perhaps while scouting) happen to see them working a HS game. Some would use that in unproductive ways.

I understand. That would make sense at the DI or DII level, where travel is longer and paychecks higher. Camron, do you know this because you work college ball?

I have never heard a D2 or D3 supervisor advise against officiating HS ball. That would be the equivalent of a D1 supervisor telling his guys not to work D3 or JuCo.

I quit umpiring D3 baseball about 4-5 years ago. One reason for that was that the assigner (who also assigns HS ball) would expect me to just dump HS games at a moment's notice to cover a game for him.

Despite all the pompousness and greediness that goes on in the college assigning business, I'd say that the majority of D2/D3 supervisors wouldn't pull that crap. Expecting an entry-level official on your staff who's getting <5 games to give up high school ball? That's the definition of unreasonable.

I still stand by my point that too many low-level college assigners like to pretend that they assign the ACC. At least, that's true from people I talk to in my area.

I did, for short time. It was never said to me because I didn't get high enough for it to matter. But I heard it said by those that were working significant college schedules.

I work for 2 HS supervisors. One works D2 and JuCo ball (in conferences w/me) and the other is a fixture on national television, so neither of them have a problem with us dumping games as long as it is for a college game, not just a better HS game.

Same protocol here.....if you get a college game, even same day, you take it and HS adjusts.

Sent you a PM.

Agreed. I do know of D1 assignors telling staff to stop working high school - even staff members that only 2-3 games. That's ridiculous to me.

Every league has a different assigner here. I'm more than willing to work with an official who gets an opportunity, but it's on that person to help find a replacement and not just dump it back on me.


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I agree with you from the standpoint that we are all supposed to be independent contractors (of course that applies to assigners as well, who can pretty much use whatever criteria they want to give assignments).

The difference is if you're working D1, even only a handful of games, you're likely getting enough D2 and lower games such that you probably don't have a ton of gaps to fill with high school games.

And if you live in my state and work D1, most HS-only officials probably don't want to work with you anyway. :rolleyes:

That wouldn't fly here if you care about your rating for the way high school officiating is set up here. And I actually get it. If you're going to accept a high school game, you shouldn't be open on your college calendar for that day on the day of the game. If you get a college game a few days out, great. Don't get one? Block off and fulfill your high school assignment.

And this is how it should be, IMO.

Frankly, there are some officials who I don't use cause they will dump games back at the last second and say "sorry, college game". Most of them are in baseball, where they will dump a scheduled HS game for a last minute rescheduled college game.

Glad I don't live in SC. All my supervisors, at each level, will let you out of game for a higher level game. Some draw the line at the 'day of' notices.

That was my intended point-the line has to be drawn somewhere. At some point you have to block for college and fulfill your high school game, and that point needs to be before the day of. Not to mention that if you're open for college when you have a high school game, no college supervisor is going to be pleased when he calls you begging for help because you're open and you say "sorry, I have a high school game."

But yes, the rating system here is bad, along with plenty of other issues.

High School here, we can drop same day for college games. At least, the supervisors I work for.

If I want to work a particular High School game for whatever reason, then I'll just go in and block out my college supervisors. I know folks who have dropped D3 games for D1 games same day. I'm sure it comes with a little friction, but I know it has happened. It's not the most pleasant aspect of working college basketball.

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What is the better pipeline to the NBA for officials, men's or women's basketball? AFAIK, many women work women's basketball, and get into the WNBA that way (they later get picked up to the G-League because of their experience in the WNBA). This may be because not many assigners of men's basketball see women as capable of working high level men's games, so women's basketball might be their only option until they reach the professional level. Is women's basketball a reliable way for a male official to get to the NBA, or should I focus on men's basketball instead?

The reasons women don't work men's college are...

1) They're unlikely to get hired (just the way it is), and
2) Females with potential move up the ladder very quickly in women's basketball. Much more quickly than a male with the same or even more talent. Why would a woman with a lot of promise try and go the men's route when the prospect of having a full college schedule in 5-10 years is very realistic on the women's side and impossible on the men's side?

I'd imagine if you have aspirations of making it to the NBA as a male, then you need to work men's college, but I really don't know.

The best route to the NBA is through their grassroots program. That's where you will get identified. Where you work outside of that doesn't matter. The NBA is changing up the way they accumulate talent. Used to be a time where the Big South and SEC men's staffs were pipelines. Those days are over.

To echo what Raymond said - in the current system, you will never go to the NBA unless you have been identified by one of the 4-5 scouts (JB, Al, Sampson, etc.).
Also, G-League comes before WNBA - not the other way around.

Again, this is another "area" thing. There are not in my original state a lot of D2 at all. All the D2 schools are rather far and the conference is spread out to about 3 other states. So a D1 official is not going to likely work a lot of D2 stuff. They might work more D3 or NAIA frankly if they are not on the larger scale at the D1 level.

Peace

You should have access to Al Batista, being you are in Maryland. He can definitively answer a lot of the questions you are asking here.

I'll definitely ask Al. I also made the OP for the benefit of other officials in the same boat (either HS looking to transition to college, or officials looking for good information on long-term career perspectives) who may not have much information about what gender they want to work, and if that choice matters.

It's an individual decision based on individual factors. If there are folks here looking for that information they have asked in the past. You're not breaking any new ground here.

If you're looking to get better you need more conversations about what you're actually doing on the court and less conversations about speculation and Rule changes that you would like to see.

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The reality too is that this choice might be made for you on some level. If you get hired by one first, then you might not get the same opportunity at the other. You have to get hired by someone, not you choose where you are going to work.

Peace

Theoretically Possible ...
 

College basketball assigning is way outside my wheelhouse, but ...

Didn't JRutledge get hired for women's games first and the make the switch to men's games?

I'm not saying that it appears to be easy, or that it's going to happen for many, but it is theoretically within the realm of possibility? Right? And it's not that some should bet their house on it? Right?

https://tse3.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.B...=0&w=276&h=171

JRut, is the application process to CBOA on the East Coast, or to whatever the women's equivalent is, just a formality? If I apply to both men's and women's conference staffs, go to both sets of camps, and somehow get hired by both staffs, I can't work both?

AFAIK, Tim Ebersol assigns both men's and women's basketball for the Capital Athletic Conference, so would he react negatively if I showed interest in doing both? Would the men's assigners look askance at me if they know that I went to women's camps, and vice versa?

Tim assigns both sides of CAC now? If true, that’s new. ‘Twas not the case when I went to their tryout camp at York back in 2014.

When I went to that camp, we had to declare what side we were trying out for. Once you did, the evaluators on the other side simply stopped paying attention to you.

Al Batista introduced himself to me at that camp. It didn’t end up amounting to anything because I don’t have the life space to commit to pursuing a G-League pipe dream. But the attention was flattering!


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He got the CAC last summer. Assigns both Men's and Women's staffs.

As for which to apply for: Yes, you pick one, and if you get in you get in. You can't work both. Too many rules differences and mechanics. I wouldn't tell people you went to both Men's and Women's camps. I don't know why, but people have told me that.

You have to "pick" which side you are going to do by "picking" which camps you are going to go to. You don't go to both.

Also, if you "pick" men's side and can't cut it (after 3, 4, 5 years of camping), the stigma out there is that men try to make the switch because they think it will be "easier to move up". So, something to keep in mind.

I've heard this before, but I've also heard of women's assigners being grateful to have former men's officials try out for their staffs due to the perceived greater challenge of officiating the men's game. Not saying whether that's true or not, but I've heard both sides.

As for the stigma, it’s not necessarily false. Despite the fact that the average woman moves up much faster than the average man on the women’s side, most people would tell you that, all things being equal (which obviously they’re not), advancing on the women’s side is less competitive.

I would believe that first part, because unfortunately there are more quality Men's officials working games than the other way around IMO. So what happens is most of the top officials usually try to go to the Men's side first and it is a default that they go to the Women's game if they cannot get through the tunnel.

Peace