Does the Big Sky conference still have people working both sides? I know they did for a while, but am out of the loop now.

I don't believe so, and if I am not mistaken that is one of the reasons why they changed assignors on the men's side not many seasons ago.

And I know this is hard to believe for some, but women's coaches often do not want officials that work Men's games. We had a D3 assignor that I once worked for that would put people on conference games of both sides. He was fired and one of the reasons I understand that to be the case was because of him not caring who he put on a game regardless of gender. There was also JUCO league that I worked that the assignor would do the same sometimes, that did not go over well in that conference either.

Peace

That's some messed up version of affirmative action at work there :p :X. If women's coaches don't want men's officials on their games, then good female officials will be less able to work men's basketball, and the discouraging status quo of officials being assigned by gender will continue :sad. This will suck for officials who are on the fence/ have no preference as well. Maybe attitudes will change in a few years, but how would one choose, while a choice still needs to be made?

What in the hell does anything I said have to do with Affirmative Action? Are you going to tell me that the two games are not different? Their rules are different in many respects. Their mechanics are different. The athleticism is different. One game plays above the rim often and the other is a highlight if someone even comes close to dunking in the game. What do you mean it is going to suck? It has been the case my entire career and I am sure longer. It is not about attitudes being changed, because there are officials that are incapable of working both, it is that simple. It is like saying someone that is a good junior high official is going to all of a sudden be a good high school official. The two things have to do with your ability to deal with the culture, ability and the rules that many officials get mixed up all the time. If you cannot make a choice, someone will make that choice for you. As stated by many on this site.

Peace

The first part of my post was (mostly) kidding. What was meant seriously is what criteria should I use to make preferences between one side or the other. JRut, how did YOU choose between MBB and WBB? Was there an aspect of one game, or another that appealed to you?

You choose like you do anything else, you make a choice and pursue that choice. You decide what camps you want to go to and you pay for them. They are often expensive so it is better to make a choice that you will be comfortable with. Seriously, this is not that complicated. For me it was simply what I followed I wanted to be apart of. I never saw myself working women's college basketball let alone girl's basketball.

Peace

a) Your logic doesn't follow.

b) You need to make a personal choice (at some point). Because it's personal, no one here can tell you how to decide, or even what all the criteria are. And, because it's several years away, you don't need to worry about it yet.

Why do women's coaches not want officials who work men's games? Are they afraid that their players would be hurt if the officials use the men's standards to officiate women's games (advantage/disadvantage vs automatic calls)? IMO, if an official can keep the differences between high school and college straight, he can keep the NCAAW/NCAAM differences straight. Besides, some states have different rules for boys and girls (NY has girls play by (modified) NCAAW rules, whereas boys play NFHS, and some of the shot clock states (MD,CA,MA,WA) don't have a 10-second count for girls), so if an official came from such a state and had to remember the differences between boys and girls rules and mechanics, what is to say that he can't do the same for men's and women's games at the college level?

I'm not denying that the games are different with respect to rules and mechanics. However, there are many similarities as well (both now use a 30-second shot clock, both discourage rotations late in the shot clock, and there is not an action which is a foul in women's basketball that is legal in men's, or the reverse, different terminology notwithstanding).

For the record, I now have a slight preference for men's basketball, after watching videos of both men's and women's officials in action, and seeing that the men's officials appear to have cleaner mechanics and higher playcalling percentages. But I would not object if I was assigned to work both flavors of college basketball.

Genders ...
 

Here in Connecticut, with the exception of a different size basketball, boys and girls high school teams use the same rules, and mechanics. Yet, I often have problems adjusting from a Thursday night girls high school varsity game to a Friday night boys high school varsity game. Different speeds, muscular differences, play above, or below, the rim, different ability to play through contact. It takes me a few minutes to get my mind in synch with what's going on on the floor (yet the reverse, boys to girls game, is not a problem for me). I know of many colleagues on my local board that have the same adjustment problem.

That's not going to happen. You're going to have to make a choice, or a choice will be made for you if/when someone hires you.

The games are not only different, they are played differently. They are executed differently. The philosophies are different. A high school girls basketball game is very different than high school boys game and why even at that level in my state many people (assignors, coaches, administrators) do not want officials that work both often. And just so you know you are not likely to ever be assigned to both at the college level. Heck, you going to a Men's camp and if you say you work Women's basketball, that might eliminate you from consideration at that camp for assignments.

Again this is one of these things that is not our rule on this site, it is one that has been well established before many of us started or the way it was in our careers. High school ball may not have that same standard based on where you are at, but I work entirely a boys basketball schedule in two states and often the better officials work those games consistently. Just the way it is and I doubt that is going to change unless the number of officials just fall off, which they have not in my state. But then again you cannot make officials take games they wish not to work on many levels without consequences.

Peace

Only Working Girls ...
 

Agree.

As some of our local guys age, put on few pounds, slow down, or develop leg, and hip, problems (arthritis, etc.), they will often switch from doing both genders to only working girls. Right there, that tells you a little (not a significant number, but enough to skew the curve) about the quality of guys that officiate girls games.

With my patellofemoral pain syndrome in my left knee, and a bone spur, and osteoarthritis in my right ankle (no elective surgery allowed for twenty more months because I'm on blood thinners to keep my stent open), I may fall into that category in a few years, although I have lost twenty-five pounds since my heart attack ten months ago.

Congrats, hope and pray you stay healthy.

I'm Like The Freaking Six Million Dollar Man ...
 

Thanks.

I'm at the gym six days a week, 30 minutes on the treadmill, fast walking pace, steep incline.

I've got three zotarolimus eluting coronary stents in my left anterior descending coronary artery (the infamous widow maker).

Medications include a lipid lowering agent, a platelet aggregation inhibitor, an ACE inhibitor, a beta blocker, and a low dose aspirin.

Scientists have kept me alive by implanting high tech devices in me, with a regime of modern pharmaceuticals.

I'm like the freaking Six Million Dollar Man.

https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.r...=0&w=300&h=170

Now, where did I leave my car keys?

It's a pity that CT only uses 2-man for anything other than the state playoffs. 3-man would keep BillyMac going for longer, whether at the boys or girls levels. It seems very unfortunate that officials are segregated by gender in NCAA basketball, and that lesser officials usually work women's games as compared to men's games, but it is the way it is. I must thus resign myself to a fate of being exclusively a men's official:(. I could learn a lot from both games, but I believe that choosing men's basketball would be the better choice long-term. I won't be fast-tracked in women's basketball, and I can learn the NBA mechanics doing pro-am, so women's basketball won't have any real advantages for me.

Let us know when you get your first WCAC game.

Until that time, save us from further niggling questions. Time for more work and less talk.

Bye!!

The Land Of Steady Habits ...
 

While the spirit of ilyazhito's post is correct, for the record, some of the major rivalry regular season games will get three person crews (more likely in some local boards other than in my own). All Connecticut quarterfinal state tournament games and beyond, both genders, all levels, get three person crews, as well as those major rivalry games in earlier state tournament rounds.

The most successful (who are often the most vocal) basketball coaches in the Connecticut High School Coaches Association (I'm a former member) don't want three person crews (they believe that too many fouls will be called) for regular season games. School principals, school athletic directors, and the Connecticut Interscholastic Athletic Conference (the state interscholastic sports governing body) all listen to the coaches' "lobby" and voilà, mostly two person regular season games. The principals (who mainly run the Connecticut Interscholastic Athletic Conference) and athletic directors don't put up much of a fight because it saves them money. The coaches win, the athletic budgets win, and the sport loses. "Two Out of Three Ain't Bad" (Meat Loaf, 1977).

Speaking of no 3-person, the belief that officials in a 3-person crew call more fouls is misguided. In my experience, both me and my partners have called less fouls than we would in a 2-person game. It could be that the athletes in games with 3-person crews are better, and more disciplined, and thus commit less fouls, but the main reason is that 3 officials can be in better position to make calls than 2 officials can be, because the primary areas of responsibility are smaller than in 2-person mechanics. This leads to officials guessing less and calling only what is obvious to them in their area. Because they call only the obvious fouls, the games under a 3-person system have less whistles than similar games under a 2-person system.

@justacoach, I have called games in the WCAC (JV girls), so your comment is not very apropos.

I created this thread so that officials on the fence could know some of the differences between men's and women's college basketball, from an officiating perspective, as well as to find out if it were possible to actually work both sexes. Now I know that working both sexes simultaneously is not possible, except maybe at the junior college level. Is this the reason why some JUCO men's officials use women's signals in men's games (counting with 1 hand and making a fist to start the clock, instead of the CCA Men's approved method of raising one hand, counting with the other, and chopping the raised hand)?

A lot of officials at all levels do not always do what their respective manuals suggest they should. There are a lot of reasons for that.

I know that from other threads. I have also seen high school officials use the fist to start the clock and not stop the clock on out-of-bounds calls, in an attempt to emulate the NBA, but most officials use the approved mechanics, in my experience. I thought that some officials at the junior college level might work both men's and women's games, and forget to change their signals between the two. Maybe it is possible to work both sexes in JuCo, even if it is not possible at the higher levels.

I've worked JUCO men's basketball and don't recall ever working with an official who didn't "count and chop" by the book. And even if someone did it the "unapproved" way, why should I care? That is between him and the assigner. All I can control is that I myself use mechanics that are acceptable for the respective assigner. And, yes, veterans often can get away with doing things that less experienced officials cannot. Really no different than a real job.

I've also never worked with a men's JUCO official who also works women's JUCO, as far as I am concerned. Again, even if I did, that is not my problem and is between him and the assigner. I can recall one small Christian college that utilized the same assigner for men's and women's basketball. That school didn't care if it got "men's officials" for its women's games or vice-versa; as long as they were competent, knew the rules and gave their best effort. So, there was occasionally some crossover there when the assigner was in a bind.

Maybe your sample size is just too small. Or you're worried about things that don't matter and that you can't control.

I can only speak for my area, and I can tell you that it would not be acceptable to the JUCO assigners here.

It really does not matter what someone wants to do, they often are not going to have much of a choice anyway. To work any college, someone has to hire you. Someone has to suggest that you are good enough or competent enough to work their games. People can try to do what they want in this arena, but if no one gives them the games, it does not matter.

JUCO is often assigned by people that assign other levels. We had a JUCO assignor in our area at one time that would get officials that worked Men's to work the Women's side in a pinch. That is the trend as many D1 conferences are using lower levels as their consortium when they train and hire officials all over several levels. The BIG has done this and has even supervisors of lower level conferences sharing their training and camps with the BIG. Well, the conferences eventually got rid of that supervisor and gave the assigning to a guy that already assigned college and NAIA ball for the Men's side and gave the other side to a Women's assignor who also already assigned some college, including D3 in the area. So it is great to have a desire, but there is clearly a standard to keep officials on one side or the other. Conferences want their games covered for sure, but they also want access to the same quality officials that other levels have, including JUCO. Many camps I went to the supervisor assigned all levels of college in over many states, so I doubt your area is entirely unique.

Peace

His area is the same. There is a guy who has several conferences (D2/D3/JuCo) and assigns both men's and women's. He has separate women's and men's staffs in all his conferences.

I have experienced the opposite, but mostly due to unforeseen circumstances. When bad weather or another issue causes someone on the men's crew to be late, I have seen women's officials (myself included) start a men's game and work until the late official arrives. This would definitely be the exception as opposed to the rule and I've probably only seen it 3 times in 10 years.

When I am talking about needing officials in a pinch, I was talking mostly about the day of or day before situations where you cannot find a replacement to cover a game because of many factors. Most college games are assigned months in advance and changes, of course, happen because of the effects of other levels and officials might not be available. Weather is certainly one of those situations and often when a school plays a doubleheader with the women going first, there are times when an official is asked to show up that was not originally assigned.

The last women's game I did was probably 5 years ago where I was called to work a women's game by my supervisor of that conference because he was called by the school because the game was never listed. I lived 5 miles away from the school. I was called in and a couple of other officials were called in to help out that assignor/school.

Peace

So just more evidence he is not listening to people that actually know how this process works? Gotcha.

I think he and others do not realize how small the community is for college basketball officials.

I worked a camp in Pittsburgh this past spring and many of the officials were from Indiana, Wisconsin, Iowa, Illinois, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Virginia, Maryland, and West Virginia. It is the many of the same people I saw at a camp in Indianapolis a couple of weeks later.

Peace

OK. Now I know that it isn't possible to work both sexes unless there is an emergency situation, whether for JUCO, DIII, DII, or DI. I've watched video of junior college and DIII women's college games, and I'm not impressed with the quality of play (it doesn't appear to me to be better than varsity level). Even though women's officials are good varsity officials, I would still be more interested in working men's ball. If things work out next year, I'll be trying out for Donnie Eppley, Tim Ebersole, and possibly Gregg Bennett on the men's side.

Well, at least you are narrowing it down. That has to mean something.

Peace

I can't speak to women's D3/JUCO versus high school. But if you get hired for small college on the men's side, you're likely going to have quite a few games where you won't be impressed with the quality of play.

I hear so many officials complain about "bad basketball" from 5A varsity games to college games, boys/men and girls/women. I sometimes wonder what their standard for "good basketball" is.

And sometimes those "bad basketball" games are where you get better because often more whacky stuff happens in those kinds of games.

Any college game on the Men's side at least has faster, bigger and stronger players. Even if you have a D1 player or two at the HS level, that is still a step up to work a JUCO (which are often D1 players but for some reason are not there) are much faster than any HS game. Again at the HS level, you might be dealing with one or two players that are even college players. In a college game, all those players were likely the better players of their team. Where you might have one or two players that can play at or above the rim consistently, you likely will have 10 players on the floor that could play at the rim even in a D3 game. I say all of this because you might not get the atmosphere as a high school game working lower level college basketball, but the athleticism is still better. Even if they play a little disjointed or not as organized, they still can get up and down that court or make plays you might go several games seeing in a high school setting. That is still an adjustment for someone that does not work those games at that level. And it takes some getting used to having all the things going on in your head compute in such a fast way.

Peace

Not in response to anyone, but I know multiple women's college or former women's college officials that I'd much rather work high level boys HS games with than some of the men's/former men's officials I see. The idea I hear sometimes that "you can't go between genders because the games are too different" is ludicrous. We work doubleheaders in South Carolina, and the best officials (including the college officials) that I work with are equally adept at both genders. The only ones that are competent at girls but overmatched in boys are the old farts that can't run and should have retired 10 years ago.

Quite frankly, I appreciate when I work with crews that will enforce FOM and the automatics and not ignore them because "it didn't affect anything." And the women's officials are better at that.

Agreed. That is why I wanted (initially) to be able to work both men's and women's college basketball, just as I would want to work both boys and girls high school basketball. Unfortunately, that is impossible, so I choose the men's side. Perhaps men's officials are starting to catch on as well and call freedom of movement as consistently as the women's officials.

Speaking of FOM and the automatics, I am vigilant about calling handchecking, illegal screens, fouls against cutters, etc. whenever I have the chance to work 3-person games (and even in 2-person games), and I will try to put these habits into practice should I get (charter school) varsity games this year.

Washington, DC has an interesting way of scheduling public school basketball. Just like South Carolina has boys/girls doubleheaders, DC public schools have the JV game first at 4 PM (only boys have JV teams, probably due to budget issues), the girls varsity game at 6 PM, and the boys varsity game at 8 PM, so both boys and girls play at the same site in succession. One of the officials from the JV game stays to work either the girls or boys varsity game.

For private school girls games, I have experienced something similar. Usually, my partner for the JV game would work the following varsity game with 2 other officials (including my evaluator, for games where I was being evaluated).

I doubt that this arrangement would catch on at the college level, even if assigners were open to having officials on games independent of gender, because of the physical demands of working a college game (40 minutes requires more stamina, focus, and energy than 32 minutes), whether with women or with men.

Focus. Focus on you and what you can control. Quit worrying about the machinations of what supervisors can or cannot/will or will not do.

Well if you do work doubleheaders and you are forced to work both genders, then that is a different situation than officials like our area that are not forced and often not asked to do both genders. We have boys assignors that will not use primarily girls officials for varsity boys games. And we have enough officials in basketball, this is not even an issue. And if you work any other level, you will not get officials out to work both either. Games of both genders are rarely held on the same night.

I think working both is hard and as I said before it is not about it being hard, but understanding the cultures of both. I have said before that the culture of girls basketball is much different than working boys basketball. And I am sure that contrast is much different if you are not seeing the same game on the same night. It may work better in areas like yours, but in mine, this is often a disaster. Because many boys officials are used to a faster, higher and stronger game. The coaches do not want you calling any little contact that takes place that seems very acceptable in girls games. And girls officials are usually older, slower and not as experienced. Just heard of a story of a kid in college being hired by a big-time assignor in college and he barely stopped playing HS ball himself. But someone thinks that is a good idea to work college, which will help him work a HS schedule for girls he would never see that soon on the boys side. Not saying he could not do it, but there are more of those stories in women's college than I ever hear on the Men's or boys side of basketball (around here).


I might work one basketball game a year on the girls side. I had two last year only because I worked in another state too for the first time last year. It was like working in a foreign country when I did a girls game. Girls coaches complained about the silliest stuff IMO. One team/coach thought there was so much trash talking that it was bothersome to them, where that interaction would have been not even a notice in many boys games I have worked in the past. And every time a girl would dribble through three people and lose the ball, you would have thought we committed highway robbery by not calling a foul when no defender did anything wrong. And all of that IMO is because they see officials that overreact to things that if you called to that extend

Well when I work with Men's college officials at the HS level, this is hardly ever a problem. They are used to and have been calling the game that way for years. It is the mostly HS officials that sometimes struggle with this, but this has been done for so long at the HS level, it is easy to call the game now IMO.

Peace

I'm a former men's college official and hear far more complaints from boys coaches than girls coaches in my area. Now, whether that is just because the girls coaches don't care as much, or are just better behaved than the boys coaches, or some other reason, is up for debate (or maybe I suck). And female coaches almost never give me any trouble; when I have an issue with a girls coach it's almost always a male. I don't change the way I call the game; in the end I'm looking for advantage/disadvantage no matter what gender (plus the automatics). If I worked women's college maybe my philosophy would be different.

Just goes to show how different things are by area. As far as the SCHSL is concerned, basketball is basketball. Not saying that's right or wrong, but that's how it is in GA, NC, and SC. If girls and boys started playing on different nights here, the officials that got mostly girls games would raise hell.

For the record, I am not saying that boys coaches do not complain. They complain big time in many areas. But the things they complain about are totally different. They will often tell their players to stop doing things that are the "automatics" that we are asked to call. If I call hand-checking they clearly support those calls and teach their players on the spot to stop doing those things. That is not the situation I am talking about. But if you call a foul on a blocked shot (when clearly not clean) or just make several calls they do not like, they can get silly too. I am just saying that girls coaches tend to get silly over when a girl falls and I have been asked so many times, "She did not fall on her own" where the same play would have the coach yelling at his player, "Get up and keep playing." It is as if the girls are fragile and cannot handle the contact of the game. I have even read where there is this attitude that girls are not playing basketball because the game is too rough. You never hear that position from boys or parents of boys.

They tried to do that in several conferences here after a Title IX lawsuit. What was found was that even if the girls played the game first or second, people would either leave after the girls game or they would not come into the gym until the boys game was about to start. So they started playing at completely different times unless it was a rivalry where everyone would come out that night or afternoon. Also, tournaments are held in different places so the officials are not in the same places for the high profile events.

Peace

To answer OP: No or at least never heard of anyone doing it.

Tidbit contributions:

Going between boys and girls HS ball is easy enough b/c rule sets are the
same. Doing the same at the NCAA level is not easy enough.

Generally speaking, the pay is the same b/w the genders. I have had
many officials indicate that officiating girls/women's bball is far easier
(slower pace, less complaining, simpler plays, easier coaches, etc.) than
boys/men's so why would they do boys/men's if pay is the same? Makes
sense however, there are also far more whistles blown (sloppier play, etc.)
in the women's game than in the men's. It is simply a lower level of bball so
mentally it can be more taxing (read boring or less enjoyable). I rarely do a
HS girls game b/c I nearly fall asleep after the tip.

I thought that the two sexes would be more comparable in terms of ability, whether at the college (JUCO through D1), varsity high school, or subvarsity levels. Because of that, I thought that working both would be a good idea for when I was to try out for the G-League and/or FIBA, so that I could have experience working both high-level men's and women's basketball.

Now, I realize that this is not so, and I plan to only pursue men's college basketball, because that is more challenging than comparable women's basketball. I will still accept assignments for both sexes at the high school level.

If you can't discern the different ability levels of boys vs girls ball, it is truly presumptuous to project yourself as a candidate for G-league much less FIBA.

Everyone is entitled to their dreams and aspirations but your previous revelations on this forum clearly pigeonhole you as one of those inveterate "Yeah, but" guys who populate the extreme fringes of the officiating world.

Definitely don't quit your day job....

Always Listen To justacoach ...
 

https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.l...=0&w=215&h=177

This is something important that I've learned since joining the Forum. Trainers, clinicians, trained observers, experienced outstanding veteran officials, etc., all have great wisdom to offer, even if it differs slightly with one's own opinion. Listen, file it away somewhere in your brain, and continue to learn. Don't completely ignore any advice from anyone who has been to many, many, many rodeos, and has been around the block many, many, many times.

https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.C...=0&w=224&h=169

Five more weeks until my retirement as an environmental chemist. I've already started practicing yelling at the neighborhood kids to keep off my front lawn, and checking the local restaurants for early bird specials. I hope I can get used to eating dinner at four o'clock in the afternoon. Now, where are my keys?

With retirement, Billy, you will have more time to post. ;)

Yakety Sax (Boots Randolph,1963) …
 

I've actually given that some thought. Seriously. I don't want to wear out my welcome and catch any undue attention from the moderators.

I've already made up some retirement rules for myself.

Don't watch any daytime television, go to the gym six days a week (even during basketball season), go to weekday morning mass at least once a week, only check the Forum no more than twice a day on weekdays, early morning, and late afternoon, as I presently do, and get to know my town librarian.

https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP._...=0&w=200&h=150

I plan to make myself available for midafternoon middle school, and high school freshman games. I'm sure that I'll observe a lot of weird plays and work with some novice officials. That should generate some good thread topics.

Cue the Benny Hill Show theme song.

https://youtu.be/Gpc5_3B5xdk

Now I've got to go out and buy some hard candy for the grandkids.

Love Benny....as well as Mr. Bookman.

Are you in a state that allows you to work separate genders, or do you do men's college ball? In either case, I would understand your comments about almost falling asleep doing girls basketball. To me, right now, basketball is basketball, whether played by boys, girls, or aliens, but now I know that men's is the way to go.

Space Jam ...
 

I've read rumors about a sequel to Space Jam, with LeBron James in the role previously played by Michael Jordon.

Ashley Gardner As Marion, The Librarian ...
 

I was wondering how many would get the Seinfeld reference based on just a photo. I can never get one past you guys. Forum members are pretty sharp.

This (below) is for bucky's enjoyment.

https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.W...=0&w=217&h=164

Never heard of him.


Having watched every episode at least 30 times, tough to get anything Seinfeld related by me. My kids hate it when a recite lines word for word before the characters say them.:p