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-   -   Duke/Kansas OOB in Last Minute (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/103725-duke-kansas-oob-last-minute.html)

ChuckS Mon Mar 26, 2018 09:41am

Duke/Kansas OOB in Last Minute
 
During my perusing the archives, I came across this (from 2012):

Q. Any pointers on improving OOB calls?

A. Sell it.

I bring this up because in the final minute (regulation) of last nightís Duke/Kansas game, the Lead official really tried to sell his OOB call, but it got overturned on video review. With the possibility of a review there, might it have been better NOT to try to sell it? Or better yet, in a case like that, why not just stop the clock, and go right to the review, if you know itís very close and under 2 minutes? (I realize this might require a rule change) I don't watch enough NCAA to know the answer, I just felt bad for the guy.

Paintguru Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:22am

I would argue there was not enough evidence to overturn that call (and I was cheering for Kansas as it kept my son's bracket in contention). I think a call on the floor needs to be made there one way or another, and then just go to replay to confirm/overturn. They really do need to limit replay time though, that review took FOR-EVAH.

As for the referee (over?) selling that call, he was particularly animated on many of his calls during that game (channeling his inner Teddy V), so I think it was more par for the course than him trying to over sell a close call.

JRutledge Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:47am

Not sure what you are asking. There are many situations where there is an out of bounds call and the officials go to the review immediately. Not sure what selling or not selling a call has to do with the review or not to have a review. They review almost every call that involves out of bounds under the last 2 minutes and if there is a dispute, they go to the monitor and do so because of the impact on the game. And I think the officials use the best information they get to make the proper call. This is not the NFL that has some specific standard as to what is to be done of keeping with the call the same or overturning. Maybe there should be, but in these games, they have more angles and better HD cameras to see these plays from all kinds of angles. I think honestly these officials are trying to avoid a situation where they are blamed for not getting it right. A lot of pressure involved and certainly their future in the tournament is on the line.

Peace

Raymond Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:50am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChuckS (Post 1019811)
During my perusing the archives, I came across this (from 2012):

Q. Any pointers on improving OOB calls?

A. Sell it.

I bring this up because in the final minute (regulation) of last nightís Duke/Kansas game, the Lead official really tried to sell his OOB call, but it got overturned on video review. With the possibility of a review there, might it have been better NOT to try to sell it? Or better yet, in a case like that, why not just stop the clock, and go right to the review, if you know itís very close and under 2 minutes? (I realize this might require a rule change) I don't watch enough NCAA to know the answer, I just felt bad for the guy.

There was one specific angle that shows the Duke player touched the ball last with both his right and left hands.

As for "selling", I'm not a big fan of that phrase, or at least the definition of it by most officials. Most officials define selling as going overboard with signals. I define selling as giving additional information to back up your call (i.e: tip signal; pointing to the leg; verbal statements).

As for this play, the official exhibited his normal level of exuberance.

JRutledge Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:53am

Does anyone have the time of this play?

Peace

Raymond Mon Mar 26, 2018 11:02am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1019820)
Does anyone have the time of this play?

Peace

I'll see if I can find the time later today. I also have 4 other plays that would be good for posting.

There are 2 plays in which Kansas players went OOB on contact from Duke players and each time no foul was called. To me, those plays looked bad because the foul count skewed in favor of Duke and those 2 plays were low hanging fruit in which foul calls would not have been second guessed.

The other 2 are comparison plays where Kansas was called for a travel in the paint (legitimate call) but then Grayson Allen similarly travels in the paint, with no call, and leads to him getting a shooting foul.

ChuckS Mon Mar 26, 2018 11:04am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1019820)
Does anyone have the time of this play?

Peace

My best recollection is about 50 seconds remaining in 2nd Half.

#olderthanilook Mon Mar 26, 2018 11:20am

IIR the play correctly, I thought there was a PC foul before the ball was dribbled on the line.

Either way, Duke ball.

I'm more interested in the block/charge that went block against Duke - I think in the waning mins of reg.

so cal lurker Mon Mar 26, 2018 11:21am

I'd really like to see a time limit on the video review. If they can't find that there was an error in 60 seconds (I'd prefer 30), then just go with the call and play the game. Perfection has become the enemy of the good.

I'm curious what folks on here though of the blocking call that fouled out Carter (about 2:30 left in OT, I believe).

JRutledge Mon Mar 26, 2018 11:28am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChuckS (Post 1019823)
My best recollection is about 50 seconds remaining in 2nd Half.

It was in overtime. ;)

I will try to clip this up quickly and not show all the other stuff.

Peace

AremRed Mon Mar 26, 2018 11:47am

Quote:

Originally Posted by so cal lurker (Post 1019827)
I'd really like to see a time limit on the video review. If they can't find that there was an error in 60 seconds (I'd prefer 30), then just go with the call and play the game. Perfection has become the enemy of the good.

Yeah but then you get a situation like in the Wisconsin-Kentucky a few years ago where they missed a critical possession off of Wisconsin late in the game where they didn't take enough time to review. By the time they got the one angle that had the call, the officials had moved on.

ChuckS Mon Mar 26, 2018 11:48am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1019828)
It was in overtime. ;)


Peace

Wow...sorry!:eek:

crosscountry55 Mon Mar 26, 2018 12:01pm

All this whining about reply time annoys me. We debate it as though this is a major problem, but we tend to forget that it is March and so it might take a little longer to be sure when there's a team that's going home. I'm ok with that. I think improvement can be made in the availability and utility of video feeds provided to the officials. But to put a time limit on situations like these is absurd. The OP play was very, very close, and indeed it turned out there was only one definitive angle out of the many provided. And it probably would not have been definitive if not for its high resolution. In the end, they got the call right. So tell me why we're arguing about this?

On a side note, in real time, I'd make the call the L did 100 times out of 100. When there's a poke, and the ball goes OOB, it is virtually impossible to do anything other than assume the poker was the last to touch. Glances off of fingertips 0.02 seconds later are nearly impossible for the human eye to discern.

Since it was brought up, regarding the contentious block/charge that went block against Duke, I thought it was a great call.

crosscountry55 Mon Mar 26, 2018 12:03pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 1019831)
Yeah but then you get a situation like in the Wisconsin-Kentucky a few years ago where they missed a critical possession off of Wisconsin late in the game where they didn't take enough time to review. By the time they got the one angle that had the call, the officials had moved on.

That was Wisconsin/Duke in the title game. But thank you for unwittingly defending the other post I just made. :D

AremRed Mon Mar 26, 2018 12:16pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by crosscountry55 (Post 1019835)
That was Wisconsin/Duke in the title game. But thank you for unwittingly defending the other post I just made. :D

I knew it was Wisconsin, thought it was the semi-final!

Quote:

Originally Posted by crosscountry55 (Post 1019833)
On a side note, in real time, I'd make the call the L did 100 times out of 100. When there's a poke, and the ball goes OOB, it is virtually impossible to do anything other than assume the poker was the last to touch. Glances off of fingertips 0.02 seconds later are nearly impossible for the human eye to discern.

Yeah I don't care much for this trend. I would argue that 90% of the time when the ball is hit out of a players hands, that player likely touched it last. But we don't call it that way. I saw another review this year involving Gene Steretore on a Michigan game where he came to the broadcast guys and said "we saw two frames that had it off the player holding the ball"....really?!? Do we really want to be so precise that we forget review is there to correct OBVIOUS errors in judgement. Las tonight was not an obvious error in judgement and thus should have have been overturned.


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