Duke/Kansas OOB in Last Minute
 

During my perusing the archives, I came across this (from 2012):

Q. Any pointers on improving OOB calls?

A. Sell it.

I bring this up because in the final minute (regulation) of last night’s Duke/Kansas game, the Lead official really tried to sell his OOB call, but it got overturned on video review. With the possibility of a review there, might it have been better NOT to try to sell it? Or better yet, in a case like that, why not just stop the clock, and go right to the review, if you know it’s very close and under 2 minutes? (I realize this might require a rule change) I don't watch enough NCAA to know the answer, I just felt bad for the guy.

I would argue there was not enough evidence to overturn that call (and I was cheering for Kansas as it kept my son's bracket in contention). I think a call on the floor needs to be made there one way or another, and then just go to replay to confirm/overturn. They really do need to limit replay time though, that review took FOR-EVAH.

As for the referee (over?) selling that call, he was particularly animated on many of his calls during that game (channeling his inner Teddy V), so I think it was more par for the course than him trying to over sell a close call.

Not sure what you are asking. There are many situations where there is an out of bounds call and the officials go to the review immediately. Not sure what selling or not selling a call has to do with the review or not to have a review. They review almost every call that involves out of bounds under the last 2 minutes and if there is a dispute, they go to the monitor and do so because of the impact on the game. And I think the officials use the best information they get to make the proper call. This is not the NFL that has some specific standard as to what is to be done of keeping with the call the same or overturning. Maybe there should be, but in these games, they have more angles and better HD cameras to see these plays from all kinds of angles. I think honestly these officials are trying to avoid a situation where they are blamed for not getting it right. A lot of pressure involved and certainly their future in the tournament is on the line.

Peace

There was one specific angle that shows the Duke player touched the ball last with both his right and left hands.

As for "selling", I'm not a big fan of that phrase, or at least the definition of it by most officials. Most officials define selling as going overboard with signals. I define selling as giving additional information to back up your call (i.e: tip signal; pointing to the leg; verbal statements).

As for this play, the official exhibited his normal level of exuberance.

Does anyone have the time of this play?

Peace

I'll see if I can find the time later today. I also have 4 other plays that would be good for posting.

There are 2 plays in which Kansas players went OOB on contact from Duke players and each time no foul was called. To me, those plays looked bad because the foul count skewed in favor of Duke and those 2 plays were low hanging fruit in which foul calls would not have been second guessed.

The other 2 are comparison plays where Kansas was called for a travel in the paint (legitimate call) but then Grayson Allen similarly travels in the paint, with no call, and leads to him getting a shooting foul.

My best recollection is about 50 seconds remaining in 2nd Half.

IIR the play correctly, I thought there was a PC foul before the ball was dribbled on the line.

Either way, Duke ball.

I'm more interested in the block/charge that went block against Duke - I think in the waning mins of reg.

I'd really like to see a time limit on the video review. If they can't find that there was an error in 60 seconds (I'd prefer 30), then just go with the call and play the game. Perfection has become the enemy of the good.

I'm curious what folks on here though of the blocking call that fouled out Carter (about 2:30 left in OT, I believe).

It was in overtime. ;)

I will try to clip this up quickly and not show all the other stuff.

Peace

Yeah but then you get a situation like in the Wisconsin-Kentucky a few years ago where they missed a critical possession off of Wisconsin late in the game where they didn't take enough time to review. By the time they got the one angle that had the call, the officials had moved on.

Wow...sorry!:eek:

All this whining about reply time annoys me. We debate it as though this is a major problem, but we tend to forget that it is March and so it might take a little longer to be sure when there's a team that's going home. I'm ok with that. I think improvement can be made in the availability and utility of video feeds provided to the officials. But to put a time limit on situations like these is absurd. The OP play was very, very close, and indeed it turned out there was only one definitive angle out of the many provided. And it probably would not have been definitive if not for its high resolution. In the end, they got the call right. So tell me why we're arguing about this?

On a side note, in real time, I'd make the call the L did 100 times out of 100. When there's a poke, and the ball goes OOB, it is virtually impossible to do anything other than assume the poker was the last to touch. Glances off of fingertips 0.02 seconds later are nearly impossible for the human eye to discern.

Since it was brought up, regarding the contentious block/charge that went block against Duke, I thought it was a great call.

That was Wisconsin/Duke in the title game. But thank you for unwittingly defending the other post I just made. :D

I knew it was Wisconsin, thought it was the semi-final!

Yeah I don't care much for this trend. I would argue that 90% of the time when the ball is hit out of a players hands, that player likely touched it last. But we don't call it that way. I saw another review this year involving Gene Steretore on a Michigan game where he came to the broadcast guys and said "we saw two frames that had it off the player holding the ball"....really?!? Do we really want to be so precise that we forget review is there to correct OBVIOUS errors in judgement. Las tonight was not an obvious error in judgement and thus should have have been overturned.

Not being antagonistic here...just want to know why.

What did the defense do wrong on that play?

(I have no dog in this fight, either.)

This is a valid point. Replay has forced us into the position where we make this type of call one way for 38 minutes and a different way for the other 2.

It might be worth refining the OOB violation verbiage in some way so as to state, “when a player dislodges the ball from a BH and the ball subsequently goes directly OOB, the player who dislodged the ball is deemed to have caused it to go out.” Then write a couple of case plays to illustrate rulings. Problem solved!




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Was sliding left and slightly toward (i.e. not maintaining LGP) at the point of contact.


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Ok, I also saw the defender obtain LGP then move left, but couldn't tell if that movement was forward into the shooter.

Difficult, big time call.

I thought the defender was legal too....and the only reason I wanted Duke to win was because I had picked them to get to the FF in my bracket.

Block/Charge - Thought the player was legal felt like the final step with right leg was straightening up or narrowing their stance not still moving.

Replay - I wish replay was used to overturn calls that are incorrectly called and obvious. Ie. someone missed something. Do not believe supper slow mo and enhanced twenty times to be sure and confirmed should be the standards for officials on the floor. If on a full speed, regular size viewing of the play there is not enough to clearly overturn the call on the floor. Call should stand and we move on.

That looked like a PC all day to me. Defense had establish LGP and didn't do anything to lose it.

I am a life long KU fan (my dear departed Mom, Class of 1942), and it was PCF.

MTD, Sr.

Sorry, but replay is there to get obvious errors corrected, not to slow plays down frame by frame to judge the last millimeter that someone touched a ball. A time limit is needed, because if it can't be determined in that amount of time, it is not indisputable visual evidence, which should be the basis to overturn any call. I understand a small delay if the referees are cycling through all the replay angles, but you can see during the broadcast that the referees are playing each angle frame by frame to try and see the last microsecond that someone had a hand on the ball. That is not the intent of replay. Also, these delays weren't restricted to March...it was happening all year.

I still can't believe they overturned that call, and again, I was rooting for Kansas.

I run plays frame-by-frame on a regular basis on my DVR. Sometimes that is what's needed to see what actually happened.

And again, there was an angle (I saw on DVR before the officials did) that shows the Duke player was the last to touch the ball with both hands.

I'd hate to be that crew that prematurely gives a ruling that then has ESPN rerunning a replay that night showing how they got it wrong in their haste to appease fans whose daily schedules have been thrown off by 2 minutes.

Agreed, but at some point, the delay and search for precision goes too far.

Not just fans, but it kills the flow of the game, and gives extended time-outs to both teams. I am sure there have been situations where an extended replay time-out benefited one team way more than the other.

As an official my only concern is getting the play right. If coaches (those who make the rules) don't think it's a problem then I'm not going to worry about flow, beer runs, dinner plans, etc. But something tells me coaches are more concerned with getting a deserved possession with 4 seconds left in the game than they are about fans and their complaints.

Video request Duke vs. Kansas Elite 8
 

All in the 2nd half:

13:41 & 6:21--both plays where Kansas is ruled OOB (is contact sufficient for foul calls/should foul count be taken into account)

1:41 & 1:25--Kansas called for travel (correct call); Grayson Allen travels in a similar manner then gets fouled and sent to the FT line.

Duke/Kansas OOB in Last Minute
 

^ This.
Also, “flow” is overrated. At its core, flow is fan speak. Do I like a smooth flowing game without many whistles? Sure, who doesn’t? Do I use judgment to pass on what I can pass on, which may indirectly improve flow? Sure. But do I overtly take steps to influence flow? Absolutely not. This includes not feeling artificially rushed at the monitor when there are no rules dictating how long I have to review. If the committee wants to change that, that’s on them, not me.


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Are you sure that is the time? I did not see a foul called at that time. The Kansas player threw the ball out of bounds after being near the basket on a pass and drive.

Peace

Not really any more than the 4 media timeouts each half. Even when they take a while, it is usually still less than a media timeout.

Yeah, I knew I might be off on that one. I'll dig some more into the play-by-play.

No problem, I just looked at the play and was not sure that was what you were referencing. We have time to get this play.

Peace

I'll see if I find a full copy of the game. The Kansas travel was in the middle of the paint at either 9:18 or 7:31 of the 2nd half. As I said, it was definitely a travel. But Allen does a similar move in the paint and was not called and ended up shooting free throws in a crucial situation while his team was up.

My 2 cents ( I'll wait for change)

I'm want to be right too. But I'm not ok wit the game delayed for minutes at a time because we want to change the standard for right.

38 minutes a game right is what we judge based on the real time evidence and help from our fellow officials.

Just my opinion, but I see the replay and the table official in the same way. Assistance from another view or vantage point in case we missed something. If I say white ball and my partner comes in and says no its off white. We talk about what we saw and come to a decision. My partner doesn't run in and say hey blue came in and smacked that ball free but I/m pretty certain the last micro touch was whites finger tips last.

I want the call right. Right needs to be consistent and relative throughout the game. If its not something that can be picked up by the naked eye and at speed (even on replay), odds are it would be passed on/missed/called or no called the other way all game long. Replay should assistant in correcting errors or ommissions made by officials in key moments of the game, not change the nature of decision making.

In this case, it was a 4 minute review. I went back to check, I was curious about how long it was taking.

Coaches have decided that possessions in the last 2 minutes are crucial enough that getting it right is more important than flow. Whatever any of us THINK replay should be for, the coaches obviously have their own thoughts on it.

Duke/Kansas Video request (Elite 8)

Below times are confirmed.

13:41 & 6:21 (2nd half) for OOB with contact plays.

9:18 & 1:25 (2nd half) for travel & no-travel calls.

Thanks Jeff.

it is a great point that OOB is always called out on a1 if b1 is holding the ball and a1 pokes it, and that is the way it should be, but if you had super slo mo to review it, it's actually going to be touched last by a1 probably half the time. the other problem is when good officials pass on a gray over the back and give the possession on a rebound contest that goes out of bounds to the team with inside position, on review that's going to be a problem because the foul can't then be called. So officials that do that have to be more careful in the last 2 minutes to go ahead and call the foul.

Calling travel on a player pivoting that keeps the front part of his foot within an inch of the base of his toes isn't appropriate in my opinion, it is, after all, a pivot foot. That travel on KU you are talking about, player didn't lift his foot, pivoted a few times nervously but I don't think it was a travel

Long Gone ...
 

Sometimes A1 pokes it away, but B1 might try to grasp the ball heading out of bounds. If B1 misses, it's B's ball. If B1 lightly touches it, it's A's ball.

With Aunt Mary recording every play in her nephew's fourth grade game, in regard to out of bounds plays, the days of officials, on any level, calling what's fair (or accepted) rather than what's factual are long gone.

To those of us who may want to go back to the good old days, wake up, and smell the coffee (or view it on video replay).

https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.n...=0&w=279&h=175