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-   -   Team catches & shoots w/ .3 left to win in WV Tournament (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/103632-team-catches-shoots-w-3-left-win-wv-tournament.html)

crosscountry55 Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:16pm

Team catches & shoots w/ .3 left to win in WV Tournament
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 1018438)
Nothing surprises me anymore. I've heard of 5:00 OT being played in a playoff game.

Hate me all you want, but this is one that could most definitely be fixed.



The exams each year really need to be closed book in a monitored classroom. Then the buffoons who wouldnít otherwise score better than 75% might actually commit some rules and case plays to memory, especially if they wanted to work post-season.

Iíll bet all three of these guys are the types who would tell you, ďIím not a rules guy, but....Ē

Judgment and mechanics are nice, but they donít make you whole.


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Rich Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:28pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by crosscountry55 (Post 1018441)
The exams each year really need to be closed book in a monitored classroom. Then the buffoons who wouldnít otherwise score better than 75% might actually commit some rules and case plays to memory, especially if they wanted to work post-season.

Iíll bet all three of these guys are the types who would tell you, ďIím not a rules guy, but....Ē

Judgment and mechanics are nice, but they donít make you whole.


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Those are the same people who think less of officials that know the rules thoroughly.


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MechanicGuy Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by justsumguy3 (Post 1018437)
Here is the video...

<blockquote class="twitter-video" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">WHAT A FINISH! Minor puts off a shot off inbounds with .3 SECONDS on the clock to give North Marion Huskies a 56-54 win over Bluefield. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/wvgirlsbb?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#wvgir lsbb</a> <a href="https://t.co/RQqEBEzAvf">pic.twitter.com/RQqEBEzAvf</a></p>&mdash; Basketball Night (@Hoops_Roundup) <a href="https://twitter.com/Hoops_Roundup/status/971535770191384576?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 7, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Awful. For not one of the three officials to know that rule is an embarrassment.

JRutledge Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:34pm

I think we are overreacting about this. This is a rule that should be known of course. But there are officials that do not know rules because they have never been put up against a situation to know the rule explicitly. It is bad, but should we be surprised at the high school level where all kinds of people do not know simple rules? High school officials honestly are on the lowest of the spectrum for accountability. For one most of our games never go into evaluating every call and you can be scratched for not talking to the coach in the right way, but not for messing up a technical foul sequence. I just do not know why we are so shocked by these situations. We have so many officials that go through the motions and never realize little things that might get them in big trouble and go around wondering why they are not in the big game slot.

Taking a closed book test is not going to solve that problem if you ask questions about the diameter of the division line instead of questions that actually could be faced in a game.

Peace

SC Official Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:42pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1018444)
I think we are overreacting about this. This is a rule that should be known of course. But there are officials that do not know rules because they have never been put up against a situation to know the rule explicitly. It is bad, but should we be surprised at the high school level where all kinds of people do not know simple rules? High school officials honestly are on the lowest of the spectrum for accountability. For one most of our games never go into evaluating every call and you can be scratched for not talking to the coach in the right way, but not for messing up a technical foul sequence. I just do not know why we are so shocked by these situations. We have so many officials that go through the motions and never realize little things that might get them in big trouble and go around wondering why they are not in the big game slot.

Taking a closed book test is not going to solve that problem if you ask questions about the diameter of the division line instead of questions that actually could be faced in a game.

Peace

I've worked with lots of college officials that don't know NFHS or NCAA rules but get by because of "game management," how they look, kissing ass, etc. I also work with a lot of officials who know the rules at an acceptable level but are horrible test takers-and in South Carolina that will doom you no matter how good you are at everything else.

It's not exclusively a high school thing to be bad on the rules.

And to clarify, "game management" is not a bad thing. But I think it's an overused camp speak term that is often used to justify "making s*it up" when you don't know or don't want to apply the rules.

Valley Man Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:43pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1018444)
I think we are overreacting about this. This is a rule that should be known of course. But there are officials that do not know rules because they have never been put up against a situation to know the rule explicitly. It is bad, but should we be surprised at the high school level where all kinds of people do not know simple rules? High school officials honestly are on the lowest of the spectrum for accountability. For one most of our games never go into evaluating every call and you can be scratched for not talking to the coach in the right way, but not for messing up a technical foul sequence. I just do not know why we are so shocked by these situations. We have so many officials that go through the motions and never realize little things that might get them in big trouble and go around wondering why they are not in the big game slot.

Taking a closed book test is not going to solve that problem if you ask questions about the diameter of the division line instead of questions that actually could be faced in a game.

Peace

I disagree wholeheartedly. This is a state quarterfinal game. Districts, Sectionals, and State officials are chosen work these games (at least they are in VA). There is absolutely no excuse for an R (or even the U2) to NOT KNOW THIS RULE. Heck the clown in the T emphatically counts it!!!!

If I were the coach, I would not have left that floor under my own power. Yes I do think the coach knew the rule based on where he has those girls defending!

deecee Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:58pm

I have met plenty of NCAA officials who's rules knowledge are very basic, especially for some common scenarios. However the bar for being a HS official is low.

bucky Thu Mar 08, 2018 01:14pm

And apparently this state does not have a review monitor for last second shots. Some do and I bet it would have helped in this case. Furthermore, there are 3 officials on the court. Was there a 4th alternate official at the table as there are in many state tournaments? If so, that official apparently thought it should count also.

Valley Man Thu Mar 08, 2018 01:17pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bucky (Post 1018450)
And apparently this state does not have a review monitor for last second shots. Some do and I bet it would have helped in this case. Furthermore, there are 3 officials on the court. Was there a 4th alternate official at the table as there are in many state tournaments? If so, that official apparently thought it should count also.

Regardless of have/not have monitor .. the shot by rule doesn't count!

The article I saw said that the monitor cannot be used except in state championship game.

JRutledge Thu Mar 08, 2018 01:24pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SC Official (Post 1018445)
I've worked with lots of college officials that don't know NFHS or NCAA rules but get by because of "game management," how they look, kissing ass, etc. I also work with a lot of officials who know the rules at an acceptable level but are horrible test takers-and in South Carolina that will doom you no matter how good you are at everything else.

It's not exclusively a high school thing to be bad on the rules.

And to clarify, "game management" is not a bad thing. But I think it's an overused camp speak term that is often used to justify "making s*it up" when you don't know or don't want to apply the rules.

I did not say that college officials know the rules better. I said that HS officials are held to a much lower level of accountability. I have seen lower level college officials get suspended games because they miss a basic rule that the coach brings to the attention of the supervisor. I have seen basic rules missed in a high school game and no one ever said a word, but their fellow officials that happened to be at the game and told them what they did wrong directly.

I had a situation this year in a high school game where we misapplied a rule on technical fouls. We had a double T given and another player who came to the confrontation. I did not see the double T part or why the entire thing started. I just saw the second action. Now when we talked about what we were going to do, the action was treated like they were two separate situations and even a punch was thrown (which I did not see at all). We talked about it and it was clear that my partners at the time were very unclear on what the rule that applied and only a conversation in detail after the game brought more clarity that we did something wrong. We ended up ejecting two players from the same team and allowed a player that did some kind of fighting action to stay in the game. And this was basic. This was not a hard rule to figure out. None of us got in trouble, fired or suspended. It was even a joke with the assigner later when I worked with him because he did not realize I was on the game until we were about to work together when talking about the incident. It was a learning lesson for me as to how we get the information after the incident, but nothing happened in the long run from any level of the organization or state level.

And these are questions that are never asked in testing on the NF or state level. I know this year there were over 10 questions on the NF test that had questions about measurements of the ball, lines, net, or logos. Yep, that is making us better. :rolleyes:

Peace

JRutledge Thu Mar 08, 2018 01:28pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valley Man (Post 1018446)
I disagree wholeheartedly. This is a state quarterfinal game. Districts, Sectionals, and State officials are chosen work these games (at least they are in VA). There is absolutely no excuse for an R (or even the U2) to NOT KNOW THIS RULE. Heck the clown in the T emphatically counts it!!!!

OK, my state has all levels assigned at the state level. What does that mean if you do not know the rule of when a catch and shoot can be performed?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valley Man (Post 1018446)
If I were the coach, I would not have left that floor under my own power. Yes I do think the coach knew the rule based on where he has those girls defending!

OK, the officials have left the floor and there is no mechanism to change the call. They cannot look at the monitor. And that still does not change the fact of what I said. The team that did the catch and shoot wins and we move on. Unless a lawsuit gets involved, this is going to stand.

Peace

LRZ Thu Mar 08, 2018 01:33pm

The losing coach obviously knew the rule and must have told his players: you can see two of the red players waving off the basket as they ran towards their bench.

JRutledge Thu Mar 08, 2018 01:39pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by LRZ (Post 1018455)
The losing coach obviously knew the rule and must have told his players: you can see two of the red players waving off the basket as they ran towards their bench.

I would not put too much stock in the reaction of players, they always suggest a shot should not be counted when it should. But I think the coach did call a play that would not allow anything other than a tap to be shot.

Peace

Valley Man Thu Mar 08, 2018 01:45pm

I hear ya JRut .. just disappointing to get assigned a state game and screw the pooch like that. Many work long and hard and never get a state game.

gogumakilla Thu Mar 08, 2018 01:58pm

Question...if you wave the shot off immediately there, and the coach is obviously upset, do you stay and give a quick explanation of the rule? Or just leave the court asap?


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