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-   -   No Dunking? (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/103601-no-dunking.html)

Nevadaref Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:21pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texref (Post 1018071)
Nevada - you said that the rule prohibits grasping while dunking?? The rule says you can't grasp the basket...except to prevent injury, DUNK or STUFF, or attempt...

That rules says that you can indeed grasp the basket while dunking, so what am I missing?:confused:

A short course in English grammar.

The actual text of rule 10-4-3 is: "A player shall not: ...Grasp either basket at any time during the game except to prevent injury; dunk or stuff, or attempt to dunk or stuff a dead ball."

The phrase starting with "except to..." ends at the semicolon. Nothing after the semicolon is part of the exception. A separate thought begins with "dunk or stuff, ..."

Here is how a semicolon is used in writing.
  1. Semicolons | Punctuation Rules - GrammarBook.com

    www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/semicolons.asp

    Use a semicolon in place of a period to separate two sentences where the conjunction has been left out.

You are misreading the text. You are including "dunk or stuff" as part of the exception to the prohibition on grasping the basket (which includes the ring). That is not correct. Preventing injury is the only exception. You should be reading the rule as two separate prohibitions on players as follows.

1. A player shall not grasp either basket at any time during the game except to prevent injury.

2. A player shall not dunk or stuff, or attempt to dunk or stuff a dead ball.

Save

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:05am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 1018073)
A short course in English grammar.

The actual text of rule 10-4-3 is: "A player shall not: ...Grasp either basket at any time during the game except to prevent injury; dunk or stuff, or attempt to dunk or stuff a dead ball."

The phrase starting with "except to..." ends at the semicolon. Nothing after the semicolon is part of the exception. A separate thought begins with "dunk or stuff, ..."

Here is how a semicolon is used in writing.
  1. Semicolons | Punctuation Rules - GrammarBook.com

    www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/semicolons.asp

    Use a semicolon in place of a period to separate two sentences where the conjunction has been left out.

You are misreading the text. You are including "dunk or stuff" as part of the exception to the prohibition on grasping the basket (which includes the ring). That is not correct. Preventing injury is the only exception. You should be reading the rule as two separate prohibitions on players as follows.

1. A player shall not grasp either basket at any time during the game except to prevent injury.

2. A player shall not dunk or stuff, or attempt to dunk or stuff a dead ball.

Save


NevadaRef:

Thank you. I could not have said it better or as concisely as you did.

MTD, Sr.

BillyMac Fri Mar 02, 2018 06:49am

Garden Variety ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by so cal lurker (Post 1018046)
... not even I think that dunk in the video comes remotely close to something that should be called.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1018067)
If the call was for this dunk, then it does not fit any standard ...

Agree and agree. The video shows a garden variety dunk, and just a dunk, nothing more to see here folks, move along.

bucky Fri Mar 02, 2018 03:06pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. (Post 1018078)
NevadaRef:

Thank you. I could not have said it better or as concisely as you did.

MTD, Sr.

Yes, wholeheartedly agree and very happy to see someone point that out. Now, on the other foot, we are assuming that the NFHS writers/publishers/editors are indeed also aware of the proper usage of a semi-colon. The NFHS people may very well have meant something different. They have had and have plenty of other grammar errors.

So, everyone here, including myself, has not been issuing a T for dunking when threat of injury is absent. Hey, my tagline comes into play again.:rolleyes:

Unless of course a different rule/case/citation dictates otherwise.;)

CJP Tue Mar 06, 2018 03:47pm

I seriously had no idea that dunking in high school was illegal. My mind is blown. I always read it as an exception to grasping the rim. Luckily, I don't see a lot of dunks in my part of the country.

BillyMac Tue Mar 06, 2018 04:25pm

The Lollipop Guild ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CJP (Post 1018270)
I don't see a lot of dunks in my part of the country.

Munchkinland?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...hkins-film.jpg

CJP Tue Mar 06, 2018 04:56pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1018275)

Pretty much.

bob jenkins Tue Mar 06, 2018 05:23pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJP (Post 1018270)
I seriously had no idea that dunking in high school was illegal. My mind is blown. I always read it as an exception to grasping the rim. Luckily, I don't see a lot of dunks in my part of the country.

I assume this was supposed to be in blue font.

(To be clear -- it's only illegal to dunk (or attempt to dunk) a dead ball.)

JRutledge Tue Mar 06, 2018 05:26pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bucky (Post 1018111)

So, everyone here, including myself, has not been issuing a T for dunking when threat of injury is absent. Hey, my tagline comes into play again.:rolleyes:

Unless of course a different rule/case/citation dictates otherwise.;)

Because it is not interpreted that tightly?

I think dunking in itself has a threat of injury just with the fact of what you are doing. No one in their right mind is going to penalize someone when their momentum is stopped out of the air because they grab something. I would want players to feel comfortable that they are not going to land wrong when they let go. That is a lot different than pulling up or swinging excessively.

Peace

CJP Tue Mar 06, 2018 05:34pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1018281)
I assume this was supposed to be in blue font.

(To be clear -- it's only illegal to dunk (or attempt to dunk) a dead ball.)

What about Nevadaref's grammar lesson?

so cal lurker Tue Mar 06, 2018 05:46pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJP (Post 1018283)
What about Nevadaref's grammar lesson?

What about it? It said nothing about not being able to dunk. But, read literally, it says that while dunking you can't grasp the rim.

The interpretation used to be closer to literal than it is now. But even back when the hand wrapping and instantly letting go (as in the video) wasn't called. And I think it was in the 80s that the language was added about holding on for protection. When I watch HS games, it seems that the exception largely swallowed the rule--absent showboating few refs are going to say that a player stayed on the rim other than to protect himself. (I think the permissiveness pendulum has swung too far, but its hard to believe it will swing back--and if it does, calling a T on the dunk in the video is swinging way too far the other direction.)

bucky Tue Mar 06, 2018 05:50pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1018282)

I think dunking in itself has a threat of injury just with the fact of what you are doing. No one in their right mind is going to penalize someone when their momentum is stopped out of the air because they grab something. I would want players to feel comfortable that they are not going to land wrong when they let go.

"What you are doing"? You could say that about walking, running, jumping, etc.

Plus, as has been indicated in other threads, the player initiates the threat by grabbing. Here is an idea, mitigate the threat by not grabbing.

CJP Tue Mar 06, 2018 05:55pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by so cal lurker (Post 1018285)
What about it? It said nothing about not being able to dunk. But, read literally, it says that while dunking you can't grasp the rim.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 1018073)
You are misreading the text. You are including "dunk or stuff" as part of the exception to the prohibition on grasping the basket (which includes the ring). That is not correct. Preventing injury is the only exception. You should be reading the rule as two separate prohibitions on players as follows.

1. A player shall not grasp either basket at any time during the game except to prevent injury.

2. A player shall not dunk or stuff, or attempt to dunk or stuff a dead ball.

Save

So who is misreading what?

so cal lurker Tue Mar 06, 2018 06:47pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJP (Post 1018287)
So who is misreading what?

You. I'm not sure why I'm responding, as it is pretty clear if you read what he wrote, or if you pay attention to what Bob already posted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 1018073)
A short course in English grammar.

The actual text of rule 10-4-3 is: "A player shall not: ...Grasp either basket at any time during the game except to prevent injury; dunk or stuff, or attempt to dunk or stuff a dead ball."

The phrase starting with "except to..." ends at the semicolon. Nothing after the semicolon is part of the exception. A separate thought begins with "dunk or stuff, ..."

Here is how a semicolon is used in writing.
  1. Semicolons | Punctuation Rules - GrammarBook.com

    www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/semicolons.asp

    Use a semicolon in place of a period to separate two sentences where the conjunction has been left out.

You are misreading the text. You are including "dunk or stuff" as part of the exception to the prohibition on grasping the basket (which includes the ring). That is not correct. Preventing injury is the only exception. You should be reading the rule as two separate prohibitions on players as follows.

1. A player shall not grasp either basket at any time during the game except to prevent injury.

2. A player shall not dunk or stuff, or attempt to dunk or stuff a dead ball.

Save

In Nevada Ref's well explained parsing, #1 does nothing to preclude dunking. But as I said, literally read, it prohibits grasping the rim while dunking--unless being done to prevent injury. And # 2 does not preclude dunking, it precludes dunking a dead ball.

bucky Tue Mar 06, 2018 07:10pm

1. A player shall not grasp either basket at any time during the game except to prevent injury.

2. A player shall not dunk or stuff, or attempt to dunk or stuff a dead ball.

Penalty = Technical foul.

1. This is rarely, and I mean rarely, ever called, especially as a percentage.

2. I have neither seen a T, nor anything else, called for that.

Let's face it, dunking and grasping the rim is a rule that is rarely enforced. I say eliminate it. Do not eliminate excessive grabbing, hanging, pulling, etc. but merely a grasp should be allowed by rule.


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