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-   -   No Dunking? (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/103601-no-dunking.html)

sdoebler Wed Feb 28, 2018 09:56pm

No Dunking?
 
What is going on here?

https://sports.vice.com/en_us/articl...e=vicesportsfb

Jay R Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:11pm

As a Canadian (even though I live next door to Maine), I know next to nothing about Federation rules. Having said that, the wording in the article says that a player shall not grasp the basket unless to prevent injury or to dunk. So how can you give a player a technical foul for grasping the basket during a dunk?

SNIPERBBB Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:18pm

Someone in the office up there has to of issued a directive I would assume.

Nevadaref Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:23am

The rule predates breakaway rims.
The problem is that the rule does prohibit grasping the basket while dunking the ball. It needs to be updated. Touching the basket is permitted as noted in 4-6-2 Exception.

That said, the game has evolved and players have been permitted to grasp the ring while dunking for several years now. Whoever is responsible for this madness taking place in Maine has earned the over-officious award for 2018.

It clearly surpasses not allowing an AC to request time-outs after the HC has been ejected. ;)

JRutledge Thu Mar 01, 2018 02:41am

What in the hell? There would be a T every other game I work if this was the standard.

Peace

BillyMac Thu Mar 01, 2018 07:01am

Casebook ...
 
10.3.3 SITUATION A: A1 is dribbling rapidly toward A’s basket and appears to
have an uncontested opportunity to score. B1 comes in quickly from the side and
violently undercuts A1 who is in the act of shooting. A1 momentarily grasps the
ring to regain balance and avoid injury. RULING: A1 is not penalized for grasping
the ring, as it clearly was done to prevent possible injury. B1 is charged with a flagrant
personal foul and is disqualified. Whether the try was successful or not, A1
is awarded two free throws with no players along the lane. Following the last
throw, Team A is awarded the ball for a throw-in at the out-of-bounds spot nearest
to where the foul occurred.

10.3.3 SITUATION B: A1 jumps for a try near the basket but loses his/her balance
after releasing the ball. A1 grasps the basket to prevent injury. The ball: (a)
is; or (b) is not, in the basket or on the ring while A1 is hanging on the ring.
RULING: In (a), it is basket interference by A1 which causes the ball to become
dead and no goal can be scored. In (b), there is no violation unless A1 is still
hanging on the ring when the ball touches the basket or goes into the basket. In
both (a) and (b), A1’s grasping is not penalized if it is judged there was a possi
bility of injury had he/she not grasped the basket. (9-1)

10.3.3 SITUATION C: A1 dunks the ball, then grasps the ring: (a) to avoid possible
injury as he/she has lost his/her balance; or (b) because A2 or B1 is lying
on the floor directly under the basket. RULING: Grasping the ring to prevent
injury as in (a) or (b), is permitted without penalty.

10.3.3 SITUATION D: Only a few seconds remain in the second quarter. Team
A is advancing the ball from backcourt to frontcourt. A1 is driving toward his/her
basket and is about to dunk the ball when the signal indicates the end of the first
half. Shortly after the signal, A1 dunks the ball and hangs on to the rim. RULING:
A1 is assessed a technical foul for dunking a dead ball. The foul is also charged
indirectly to the head coach and results in the loss of coaching-box privileges
since A1 is considered bench personnel. The third quarter begins with Team B
being awarded two free throws and the ball at the division line. The alternatingpossession
arrow is not affected and remains unchanged. (4-34-2; 5-6-2
Exception 4)

so cal lurker Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:37am

Wow. While I am in the camp that think things have gone too far in how HS players hang on rims, pull up on rims, showboat on rims, etc., without being called, not even I think that dunk in the video comes remotely close to something that should be called.

BillyMac Thu Mar 01, 2018 04:48pm

Citation Please ...
 
A1 has a breakaway and dunks the ball. She is in no danger of injuring herself, or others. While she hangs on the rim with her right hand, she takes a sip of water from the water bottle she had been carrying in her left hand. You make the call.

TheMac Thu Mar 01, 2018 04:53pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1018063)
A1 has a breakaway and dunks the ball. She is in no danger of injuring herself, or others. While she hangs on the rim with her right hand, she takes a sip of water from the water bottle she had been carrying in her left hand. You make the call.

Not a T. Now, had it been a cup of water...

AremRed Thu Mar 01, 2018 05:57pm

Guys letís not jump to conclusions. The article shows ONE video (which is clearly an IC), but references three other dunks that were also penalized. For all we know the other three technicals were easy calls. This article could easily have cherry picked this dunk as an example of whatís being called, and until we see the other dunks we wonít know.

JRutledge Thu Mar 01, 2018 06:23pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 1018066)
Guys letís not jump to conclusions. The article shows ONE video (which is clearly an IC), but references three other dunks that were also penalized. For all we know the other three technicals were easy calls. This article could easily have cherry picked this dunk as an example of whatís being called, and until we see the other dunks we wonít know.

If the call was for this dunk, then it does not fit any standard other than maybe the state organization/association that plays a role in this interpretation. I have seen a lot worse that is never called because we are not trying to nitpick any grab of the rim. So you could be totally right, that this was not the worse one, but if that is the way it is being expected to be called, I guess I have to wonder if the people in charge ever saw a basketball game before?

Peace

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Thu Mar 01, 2018 06:33pm

Maine Basketball Officials.
 
Are there any Maine officials on the Forum. I thought that Peter Webb had retired after the 2016-17 season as head of officials for the Maine Principals Association. Please PM with any information.

MTD, Sr.

BillyMac Thu Mar 01, 2018 08:10pm

So Goes Maine ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. (Post 1018068)
Are there any Maine officials on the Forum.

Bainsey is from Maine.

https://forum.officiating.com/members/bainsey.html

Texref Thu Mar 01, 2018 09:48pm

Nevada - you said that the rule prohibits grasping while dunking?? The rule says you can't grasp the basket...except to prevent injury, DUNK or STUFF, or attempt...

That rules says that you can indeed grasp the basket while dunking, so what am I missing?:confused:

Big_Blue_Wannabe Thu Mar 01, 2018 09:48pm

No Dunking?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB (Post 1018010)
Someone in the office up there has to of issued a directive I would assume.


And officialsí compliance with such a directive probably affects their ability to advance through the tournament.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Nevadaref Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:21pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texref (Post 1018071)
Nevada - you said that the rule prohibits grasping while dunking?? The rule says you can't grasp the basket...except to prevent injury, DUNK or STUFF, or attempt...

That rules says that you can indeed grasp the basket while dunking, so what am I missing?:confused:

A short course in English grammar.

The actual text of rule 10-4-3 is: "A player shall not: ...Grasp either basket at any time during the game except to prevent injury; dunk or stuff, or attempt to dunk or stuff a dead ball."

The phrase starting with "except to..." ends at the semicolon. Nothing after the semicolon is part of the exception. A separate thought begins with "dunk or stuff, ..."

Here is how a semicolon is used in writing.
  1. Semicolons | Punctuation Rules - GrammarBook.com

    www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/semicolons.asp

    Use a semicolon in place of a period to separate two sentences where the conjunction has been left out.

You are misreading the text. You are including "dunk or stuff" as part of the exception to the prohibition on grasping the basket (which includes the ring). That is not correct. Preventing injury is the only exception. You should be reading the rule as two separate prohibitions on players as follows.

1. A player shall not grasp either basket at any time during the game except to prevent injury.

2. A player shall not dunk or stuff, or attempt to dunk or stuff a dead ball.

Save

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:05am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 1018073)
A short course in English grammar.

The actual text of rule 10-4-3 is: "A player shall not: ...Grasp either basket at any time during the game except to prevent injury; dunk or stuff, or attempt to dunk or stuff a dead ball."

The phrase starting with "except to..." ends at the semicolon. Nothing after the semicolon is part of the exception. A separate thought begins with "dunk or stuff, ..."

Here is how a semicolon is used in writing.
  1. Semicolons | Punctuation Rules - GrammarBook.com

    www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/semicolons.asp

    Use a semicolon in place of a period to separate two sentences where the conjunction has been left out.

You are misreading the text. You are including "dunk or stuff" as part of the exception to the prohibition on grasping the basket (which includes the ring). That is not correct. Preventing injury is the only exception. You should be reading the rule as two separate prohibitions on players as follows.

1. A player shall not grasp either basket at any time during the game except to prevent injury.

2. A player shall not dunk or stuff, or attempt to dunk or stuff a dead ball.

Save


NevadaRef:

Thank you. I could not have said it better or as concisely as you did.

MTD, Sr.

BillyMac Fri Mar 02, 2018 06:49am

Garden Variety ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by so cal lurker (Post 1018046)
... not even I think that dunk in the video comes remotely close to something that should be called.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1018067)
If the call was for this dunk, then it does not fit any standard ...

Agree and agree. The video shows a garden variety dunk, and just a dunk, nothing more to see here folks, move along.

bucky Fri Mar 02, 2018 03:06pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. (Post 1018078)
NevadaRef:

Thank you. I could not have said it better or as concisely as you did.

MTD, Sr.

Yes, wholeheartedly agree and very happy to see someone point that out. Now, on the other foot, we are assuming that the NFHS writers/publishers/editors are indeed also aware of the proper usage of a semi-colon. The NFHS people may very well have meant something different. They have had and have plenty of other grammar errors.

So, everyone here, including myself, has not been issuing a T for dunking when threat of injury is absent. Hey, my tagline comes into play again.:rolleyes:

Unless of course a different rule/case/citation dictates otherwise.;)

CJP Tue Mar 06, 2018 03:47pm

I seriously had no idea that dunking in high school was illegal. My mind is blown. I always read it as an exception to grasping the rim. Luckily, I don't see a lot of dunks in my part of the country.

BillyMac Tue Mar 06, 2018 04:25pm

The Lollipop Guild ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CJP (Post 1018270)
I don't see a lot of dunks in my part of the country.

Munchkinland?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...hkins-film.jpg

CJP Tue Mar 06, 2018 04:56pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1018275)

Pretty much.

bob jenkins Tue Mar 06, 2018 05:23pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJP (Post 1018270)
I seriously had no idea that dunking in high school was illegal. My mind is blown. I always read it as an exception to grasping the rim. Luckily, I don't see a lot of dunks in my part of the country.

I assume this was supposed to be in blue font.

(To be clear -- it's only illegal to dunk (or attempt to dunk) a dead ball.)

JRutledge Tue Mar 06, 2018 05:26pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bucky (Post 1018111)

So, everyone here, including myself, has not been issuing a T for dunking when threat of injury is absent. Hey, my tagline comes into play again.:rolleyes:

Unless of course a different rule/case/citation dictates otherwise.;)

Because it is not interpreted that tightly?

I think dunking in itself has a threat of injury just with the fact of what you are doing. No one in their right mind is going to penalize someone when their momentum is stopped out of the air because they grab something. I would want players to feel comfortable that they are not going to land wrong when they let go. That is a lot different than pulling up or swinging excessively.

Peace

CJP Tue Mar 06, 2018 05:34pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1018281)
I assume this was supposed to be in blue font.

(To be clear -- it's only illegal to dunk (or attempt to dunk) a dead ball.)

What about Nevadaref's grammar lesson?

so cal lurker Tue Mar 06, 2018 05:46pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJP (Post 1018283)
What about Nevadaref's grammar lesson?

What about it? It said nothing about not being able to dunk. But, read literally, it says that while dunking you can't grasp the rim.

The interpretation used to be closer to literal than it is now. But even back when the hand wrapping and instantly letting go (as in the video) wasn't called. And I think it was in the 80s that the language was added about holding on for protection. When I watch HS games, it seems that the exception largely swallowed the rule--absent showboating few refs are going to say that a player stayed on the rim other than to protect himself. (I think the permissiveness pendulum has swung too far, but its hard to believe it will swing back--and if it does, calling a T on the dunk in the video is swinging way too far the other direction.)

bucky Tue Mar 06, 2018 05:50pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1018282)

I think dunking in itself has a threat of injury just with the fact of what you are doing. No one in their right mind is going to penalize someone when their momentum is stopped out of the air because they grab something. I would want players to feel comfortable that they are not going to land wrong when they let go.

"What you are doing"? You could say that about walking, running, jumping, etc.

Plus, as has been indicated in other threads, the player initiates the threat by grabbing. Here is an idea, mitigate the threat by not grabbing.

CJP Tue Mar 06, 2018 05:55pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by so cal lurker (Post 1018285)
What about it? It said nothing about not being able to dunk. But, read literally, it says that while dunking you can't grasp the rim.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 1018073)
You are misreading the text. You are including "dunk or stuff" as part of the exception to the prohibition on grasping the basket (which includes the ring). That is not correct. Preventing injury is the only exception. You should be reading the rule as two separate prohibitions on players as follows.

1. A player shall not grasp either basket at any time during the game except to prevent injury.

2. A player shall not dunk or stuff, or attempt to dunk or stuff a dead ball.

Save

So who is misreading what?

so cal lurker Tue Mar 06, 2018 06:47pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJP (Post 1018287)
So who is misreading what?

You. I'm not sure why I'm responding, as it is pretty clear if you read what he wrote, or if you pay attention to what Bob already posted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 1018073)
A short course in English grammar.

The actual text of rule 10-4-3 is: "A player shall not: ...Grasp either basket at any time during the game except to prevent injury; dunk or stuff, or attempt to dunk or stuff a dead ball."

The phrase starting with "except to..." ends at the semicolon. Nothing after the semicolon is part of the exception. A separate thought begins with "dunk or stuff, ..."

Here is how a semicolon is used in writing.
  1. Semicolons | Punctuation Rules - GrammarBook.com

    www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/semicolons.asp

    Use a semicolon in place of a period to separate two sentences where the conjunction has been left out.

You are misreading the text. You are including "dunk or stuff" as part of the exception to the prohibition on grasping the basket (which includes the ring). That is not correct. Preventing injury is the only exception. You should be reading the rule as two separate prohibitions on players as follows.

1. A player shall not grasp either basket at any time during the game except to prevent injury.

2. A player shall not dunk or stuff, or attempt to dunk or stuff a dead ball.

Save

In Nevada Ref's well explained parsing, #1 does nothing to preclude dunking. But as I said, literally read, it prohibits grasping the rim while dunking--unless being done to prevent injury. And # 2 does not preclude dunking, it precludes dunking a dead ball.

bucky Tue Mar 06, 2018 07:10pm

1. A player shall not grasp either basket at any time during the game except to prevent injury.

2. A player shall not dunk or stuff, or attempt to dunk or stuff a dead ball.

Penalty = Technical foul.

1. This is rarely, and I mean rarely, ever called, especially as a percentage.

2. I have neither seen a T, nor anything else, called for that.

Let's face it, dunking and grasping the rim is a rule that is rarely enforced. I say eliminate it. Do not eliminate excessive grabbing, hanging, pulling, etc. but merely a grasp should be allowed by rule.

CJP Tue Mar 06, 2018 07:21pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by so cal lurker (Post 1018292)
You. I'm not sure why I'm responding, as it is pretty clear if you read what he wrote, or if you pay attention to what Bob already posted.



In Nevada Ref's well explained parsing, #1 does nothing to preclude dunking. But as I said, literally read, it prohibits grasping the rim while dunking--unless being done to prevent injury. And # 2 does not preclude dunking, it precludes dunking a dead ball.

Duh!! Thanks for clearing that up.


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