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-   -   Vid request: Wash vs OSU - 2 whistles for phantom foul? (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/103516-vid-request-wash-vs-osu-2-whistles-phantom-foul.html)

bob jenkins Mon Feb 12, 2018 03:17pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 1016943)
Only if he is still moving forward at the time of contact. Moving forward along doesn't netgate LGP, it can still be maintained even when moving towards the opponent if that forward motion has ceased before contact.

Yes -- if he pulled the foot forward, then it was still moving at the time of contact -- it may or may not have been removed from the RA

Raymond Mon Feb 12, 2018 03:37pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1016944)
Yes -- if he pulled the foot forward, then it was still moving at the time of contact -- it may or may not have been removed from the RA

You can see from one of the angles that his upper body is moving forward and sideways at the time of contact.

AremRed Mon Feb 12, 2018 03:54pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blindolbat (Post 1016934)
#2 - I'm not good enough to make that call

Yes you are! When you see these plays just make sure to watch the defender closely and look for the point of contact cuz that is often where the foul is. In plays like this the defenders love to stick their knees in there to displace the opponent, so that would be a further clue.

Raymond Mon Feb 12, 2018 04:00pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 1016951)
Yes you are! When you see these plays just make sure to watch the defender closely and look for the point of contact cuz that is often where the foul is. In plays like this the defenders love to stick their knees in there to displace the opponent, so that would be a further clue.

And if we consistently call this foul when the ball-handler is disrupted it will discourage the tactic in the future.

These guys are coached to do this subtle tactics in hopes that officials will not see the contact or will think the contact is marginal.

Camron Rust Mon Feb 12, 2018 04:35pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1016944)
Yes -- if he pulled the foot forward, then it was still moving at the time of contact -- it may or may not have been removed from the RA

While that might be the case, I don't believe it is necessarily the case. I can easily see that a player could stop moving forward (based on the torso) but not put the foot back down.

bob jenkins Mon Feb 12, 2018 04:46pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 1016956)
While that might be the case, I don't believe it is necessarily the case. I can easily see that a player could stop moving forward (based on the torso) but not put the foot back down.

Hmmm -- this might be a rule differenca. I think the NCAAW rule is that if initial LGP is inside the RA, it's a block (unless the player re-establishes LGP outside the RA, and, of course, assuming the rest of the conditions are met). I know if the player establishes LGP outside the RA, the player can back into the RA and be legal.

frezer11 Mon Feb 12, 2018 05:15pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1016959)
Hmmm -- this might be a rule differenca. I think the NCAAW rule is that if initial LGP is inside the RA, it's a block (unless the player re-establishes LGP outside the RA, and, of course, assuming the rest of the conditions are met). I know if the player establishes LGP outside the RA, the player can back into the RA and be legal.

I know this is semantics, but initial LGP cannot be established within the RA, because by definition that isn't LGP, correct?

Camron Rust Mon Feb 12, 2018 06:40pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1016959)
Hmmm -- this might be a rule differenca. I think the NCAAW rule is that if initial LGP is inside the RA, it's a block (unless the player re-establishes LGP outside the RA, and, of course, assuming the rest of the conditions are met). I know if the player establishes LGP outside the RA, the player can back into the RA and be legal.

Good point. In this case, you could argue that the player started from a position outside of the RA (perhaps obtaining LGP), stepped side ways into it, then stepped forward. It is never called that way, but it could be argued.

bob jenkins Tue Feb 13, 2018 08:46am

Quote:

Originally Posted by frezer11 (Post 1016962)
I know this is semantics, but initial LGP cannot be established within the RA, because by definition that isn't LGP, correct?

Incorrect. You can still have LGP in the RA -- it's just that sometimes the illegal contact is ruled a charge and sometimes it's ruled a block, depending on what lead to the illegal contact.

frezer11 Tue Feb 13, 2018 09:02am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1016988)
Incorrect. You can still have LGP in the RA -- it's just that sometimes the illegal contact is ruled a charge and sometimes it's ruled a block, depending on what lead to the illegal contact.

That is a general statement about all plays, right? In the play in question from the OP, it is a secondary defender, so he cannot establish LGP within the RA. Or am I misinterpreting the wording? Is this a thing where LGP can be obtained anywhere technically, but if it is established within the RA, its more or less useless (again as a secondary defender) because it will be ruled a block regardless?

bob jenkins Tue Feb 13, 2018 09:32am

Quote:

Originally Posted by frezer11 (Post 1016991)
That is a general statement about all plays, right? In the play in question from the OP, it is a secondary defender, so he cannot establish LGP within the RA. Or am I misinterpreting the wording? Is this a thing where LGP can be obtained anywhere technically, but if it is established within the RA, its more or less useless (again as a secondary defender) because it will be ruled a block regardless?


This.

And, in NCAAW, it's not always illegal for the secondary defender -- only if the play starts outside the LDB, and there hasn't been a secondary move in the LDB, or the offense doesn't lead with an arm or foot, etc.

#olderthanilook Tue Feb 13, 2018 09:38am

I hope the Fed never brings the RA into the high school game.

Raymond Tue Feb 13, 2018 09:59am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 1016881)
Or, did he pull the foul out and forward before contact, perhaps, giving him a position outside of the RA? I couldn't tell for sure, but it seems possible.

He attempted to pull his foot forward, but it was still in the air at the time of contact. And his left shoulder was moving forward at the time of contact.

Raymond Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:01am

Quote:

Originally Posted by frezer11 (Post 1016991)
That is a general statement about all plays, right? In the play in question from the OP, it is a secondary defender, so he cannot establish LGP within the RA. Or am I misinterpreting the wording? Is this a thing where LGP can be obtained anywhere technically, but if it is established within the RA, its more or less useless (again as a secondary defender) because it will be ruled a block regardless?

Pretty much useless, unless the offensive player leads with a knee/elbow/arm and creates illegal contact.

Camron Rust Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:26pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1017000)
He attempted to pull his foot forward, but it was still in the air at the time of contact. And his left shoulder was moving forward at the time of contact.

I agree with the block for the body still moving forward. But does the foot actually have to be on the floor to have LGP? What if the player gets out of the RA entirely (perhaps by several inches), stops moving forward and jumps straight up without touching the 2nd foot down outside the RA?


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