Originally Posted by CJP (Post 1012492)

Where does it say that you HAVE to establish player control to establish team control? This make a descent argument against that.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 1012500)

It is a fundamental concept of the rules.

Here, for one:



Here is another, form the fundamentals at the front and in Rule 4:



That pretty much says that it stays with the prior team until the new team establishes player control. It wouldn't be any different from a situation with no team control.

Originally Posted by CJP (Post 1012499)

3. Of course you would not start your 10 count until there was player contol in the backcourt in your b5 rebounding situation. That is the rule.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 1012504)

How so? The 10 count is about team control, not player control. If there is team control, the 10 count starts the instant the ball goes into the backcourt. If, as you say, a bat starts team control, then it would start on a ball batted to the backcourt on a rebound. And if it were to another player, it would have to be a backcourt violation. But it isn't.

Just trust me, you can't have team control without having had player control first. That is rules 101.

Originally Posted by CJP (Post 1012505)

Rule 9 Section 8. Paste it here for people to read and decide when to count. Then I can decide if I should trust you.

Originally Posted by CJP (Post 1012502)

It is not a fundamental concept that you must have player control before establishing team control. There are 20 fundamental rules. This is not one.

Art 5 does not overrule Art 2. Art 2 says that you have team control during a pass.

You still did not answer my question about the casebook comment.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 1012509)

Not really relevant to this discussion, but if you insist....

Rule 9-8


You can't have player control without also having team control, so all you really need to know with respect to the 10 count is that when there team control with the ball in the backcourt the count starts. There may or may not be player control too but it is completely irrelevant. The part about player control in that rule could be left out and it wouldn't change anything whatsoever.

Again....team control starts with player control, always. Batting the ball, even to another player, despite how much you want to twist the wording of the rules, does not constitute the start of player control. That phrase, as you've been told, only means to say that team control continues even when the ball is being passed.

Originally Posted by Eastshire (Post 1012516)

4-12-5 explains that 4-12-2 does not apply during rebounding. 4-12-5 is there specifically so people don't do what you are trying to do. It specifies (pretty clearly at that) the circumstances that allow team control to be re-established when it has been ended by rule.

By rule, there is no team control once the ball has become loose on a tap or try for goal until player control has been reestablished.

I'll be the first to argue that the basketball rules are poorly written (I still haven't found a rule that actually awards the first free throw in the 1 and 1, only the rule that awards the second if the first is successful). However, this issue is fairly clear if you'd actually look at what people are showing you instead of focusing on trying not to be proven wrong.

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1012515)

Is there a troll meme we can throw out there?

Dude is obviously not an official, or a very very poor one who is incapable of interpreting a rulebook.

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Originally Posted by CJP (Post 1012520)

There is a difference between touching a rebound and batting a rebound to a teammate. That is the foundation of the argument.

Originally Posted by CJP (Post 1012521)

I may have not been an official very long but I am willing to ask questions and get better. I am getting something from this. Your insult really shows what kind of person you are. I do not want to partner up with anyone who thinks they know it all.

Originally Posted by Eastshire (Post 1012522)

No, there's not. That's what 4-12-5 is telling you, but it seems to be a rule you want to leave out.



Then, frankly, you wouldn't want to partner with yourself.

Originally Posted by CJP (Post 1012523)

Asking questions and discussing an actual issue is not acting like I know it all. Insulting people about it does.

Originally Posted by Eastshire (Post 1012524)

Insisting that you're the only person correctly reading the rules when everyone else is telling you you're wrong is. And that's what you're doing. And frankly, it does look a lot like trolling.

Originally Posted by Eastshire (Post 1012522)

...


Then, frankly, you wouldn't want to partner with yourself.