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-   -   How to handle end of game clock situation (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/103077-how-handle-end-game-clock-situation.html)

CJP Thu Nov 02, 2017 09:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by UNIgiantslayers (Post 1010910)
Easy, sparky. First of all, this doesn't happen in my game as the R because I go to the table in any short time remaining situation and tell them to make sure they wait until the chop to start the clock. This ensures they're paying attention to the time. Second of all, if I don't have a count I'm certainly not going with some "1 high dribble = 1.2 seconds, 1 quick dribble = .75 seconds." If none of us had a count, I'm getting the coaches together and telling them we have no definitive knowledge so we're going to the last known time. After this discussion, I emailed my supervisor and asked him what he could support in this situation. I'll let you know what he says but I'm 100% certain I'm not getting post season games if I try to use some whacky formula for ascertaining the amount of elapsed time.

Feel free to use the whacky dribble/shot timeline, but if I'm on that crew, you're going on my blocked partners list because that is not something I could get behind when trying to explain to a coach or supervisor.
To clarify, you are going to leave 5 seconds on the clock after a dribble, shot, and a rebound take place?

Valley Man Thu Nov 02, 2017 09:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by CJP (Post 1010911)
To clarify, you are going to leave 5 seconds on the clock after a dribble, shot, and a rebound take place?
Supported by the little book if no one has DEFINITIVE KNOWLEDGE of how much time has elapsed.

CJP Thu Nov 02, 2017 09:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by UNIgiantslayers (Post 1010910)
Easy, sparky. First of all, this doesn't happen in my game as the R because I go to the table in any short time remaining situation and tell them to make sure they wait until the chop to start the clock. This ensures they're paying attention to the time. Second of all, if I don't have a count I'm certainly not going with some "1 high dribble = 1.2 seconds, 1 quick dribble = .75 seconds." If none of us had a count, I'm getting the coaches together and telling them we have no definitive knowledge so we're going to the last known time. After this discussion, I emailed my supervisor and asked him what he could support in this situation. I'll let you know what he says but I'm 100% certain I'm not getting post season games if I try to use some whacky formula for ascertaining the amount of elapsed time.

Feel free to use the whacky dribble/shot timeline, but if I'm on that crew, you're going on my blocked partners list because that is not something I could get behind when trying to explain to a coach or supervisor.
It is an obvious timing error. Is leaving 5 seconds on the clock really correcting it? I think this is more of a test of your abilities to handle the situation. If both coaches are okay with leaving 5 seconds on the clock then you are the man, especially if there where points scored; now the other team has a full 5 seconds to get up the floor and score.

CJP Thu Nov 02, 2017 09:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valley Man (Post 1010912)
Supported by the little book if no one has DEFINITIVE KNOWLEDGE of how much time has elapsed.
Art 1 of this rule reads that a correction can be made when he/she has definite information relative to the time involved. In this case it is such a short window that I have definite information of a dribble and a shot. If the window was much larger and there where many dribbles and passes involved then I would say we lost the ability to make a correction.

Art 2 says other official information maybe used to make a correction. So your DEFINITIVE KNOWLEDGE thinking is not going to always hold up.

so cal lurker Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:27am
I think the wisdom on how to handle came from Bob way back at the start. Instead of positioning yourself to make stuff up, with that little time left, count!

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1010833)
Yes, you can -- and yes, you should. It's not visible, of course, but each official should have one.

And, with five seconds left, there's plenty of opportunity for one of the two/three officials to see that the clock didn't start.

CJP Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by so cal lurker (Post 1010915)
I think the wisdom on how to handle came from Bob way back at the start. Instead of positioning yourself to make stuff up, with that little time left, count!
Bob's wisdom was directed at post #5. I agree with this wisdom that we should have a count. Unfortunately, the original scenario says we do not have a count.

Zoochy Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:33am
Multi-Tasking
 
If you ARE NOT doing a visible count. Nor keeping a non-visible count. Then are you really counting the number of dribbles a player is taking? :rolleyes:
If there is 5 seconds on the clock when a team makes a throw-in, then I will be performing a silent count. Once I get to 5 (in my head) I will try to take a peak at the clock to see why the horn has not sounded. If it still reads 5 seconds I will sound the whistle and say game is over. :D

Camron Rust Thu Nov 02, 2017 06:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by CJP (Post 1010906)
If the throw-in team gets the rebound and you stop the play at this point and only take .5 seconds off for this touch deduction you talk about, you are essentially giving them a do over.
No, I'm following rules. Some times, the rules do lead to what appears like a do over. If so, then do that. If you can find a rule that says you must take off anything based on guesses, show me.

And I'm not even saying I'll take .5 off unless I have some information that I can definitively use.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CJP (Post 1010906)
I KNOW that after a dribble, shot, and ball flight time that more than 0.5 seconds came off the clock or whatever subjective amount touch deduction means (this touch deduction you agreed to). Coaches know it too. So you go ahead and do a small deduction for the touch. I will do my best to get it right with what I know.

Edit - I went back to post 22 and you are NOT agreeing with taking a small deduction off for a touch. Sorry about that part.
I'm taking off only what I know, nothing guessed. I'm not approximating

UNIgiantslayers Fri Nov 03, 2017 08:55am
My buddy went to our association meeting last night and asked our assignor about this situation. The assignor works college and high school as well. His message was basically somebody better have a count. If nobody does, you can't go back to 5 seconds but he laughed when asked about the calculus of using dribble time, shot time, etc. Glad this thread was brought up, I feel like I learned a valuable lesson about tracking time at the end of halves. I'll be adding it to my pregame.

deecee Fri Nov 03, 2017 09:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valley Man (Post 1010912)
Supported by the little book if no one has DEFINITIVE KNOWLEDGE of how much time has elapsed.
I personally have definite knowledge that some time between 0-5 seconds may have elapsed. It's definitely NOT 0. I may be 100% confident that AT LEAST 1 second elapsed but 90% certain that 1.5 seconds did. In that case remove the amount of time that we are 100% confident DID elapse and put the ball in play where we stopped action.

I certainly think it's foolish if a player takes a dribble and puts up a shot and the clock doesn't start that the logic uses is "since we don't know HOW much time elapsed we won't remove ANY time."

so cal lurker Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by CJP (Post 1010916)
Bob's wisdom was directed at post #5. I agree with this wisdom that we should have a count. Unfortunately, the original scenario says we do not have a count.
My point was that the take away from this thread should not be the arcana of what can and cannot be used if no one has a count. The take away should be to have a %$@!# count.

crosscountry55 Fri Nov 03, 2017 02:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by so cal lurker (Post 1010945)
My point was that the take away from this thread should not be the arcana of what can and cannot be used if no one has a count. The take away should be to have a %$@!# count.
Amen.

At the HS level, most timers are not 100% neutral. They sit in that chair because they are trustworthy and honest, but they are also affiliated with the home school. As such, even the best timers will suddenly and subconsciously become fans in the last ten seconds of a nailbiter....and they will forget to push buttons. They don't mean to, but it happens. Don't just assume that it won't happen; expect it to happen.

Watch the clock (stop and start) and count in these situations.

CJP Fri Nov 03, 2017 07:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by UNIgiantslayers (Post 1010938)
My buddy went to our association meeting last night and asked our assignor about this situation. The assignor works college and high school as well. His message was basically somebody better have a count. If nobody does, you can't go back to 5 seconds but he laughed when asked about the calculus of using dribble time, shot time, etc. Glad this thread was brought up, I feel like I learned a valuable lesson about tracking time at the end of halves. I'll be adding it to my pregame.
To be fair I was not trying to make this into a calculus proof. The point was that 3 distinct acts took place in the time frame. Taking 3 seconds off seems better than any of the other options discussed. I am also happy your friends assignor stated the obvious that someone should have a count and we cannot go back to 5 seconds. Other than that no other useful information had been passed on.

Camron Rust Fri Nov 03, 2017 07:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by CJP (Post 1010967)
To be fair I was not trying to make this into a calculus proof. The point was that 3 distinct acts took place in the time frame. Taking 3 seconds off seems better than any of the other options discussed. I am also happy your friends assignor stated the obvious that someone should have a count and we cannot go back to 5 seconds. Other than that no other useful information had been passed on.
Sure it has. You just don't like it.The rules lay out what should/can be done. How is that not useful?

You might not like what the rules prescribe, but that doesn't mean you can just make something up. If you haven't counted, you can't take time off...it is as simple as that. If you haven't counted, you don't take any time off. Don't make it harder than it should be.

When you make stuff up in a close game, and one team loses (and one team always loses), they have a legitimate gripe about you not applying the rules properly. You are never wrong if you follow proper procedure, even if it seems unpleasant.

CJP Fri Nov 03, 2017 08:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 1010970)
Sure it has. You just don't like it.The rules lay out what should/can be done. How is that not useful?

You might not like what the rules prescribe, but that doesn't mean you can just make something up. If you haven't counted, you can't take time off...it is as simple as that. If you haven't counted, you don't take any time off. Don't make it harder than it should be.

When you make stuff up in a close game, and one team loses (and one team always loses), they have a legitimate gripe about you not applying the rules properly. You are never wrong if you follow proper procedure, even if it seems unpleasant.
Apparently an assignor said you cannot go back to 5 seconds which means you have to take time off.


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