Originally Posted by HokiePaul (Post 1010846)

SECTION 10 TIMING MISTAKES (ART. 1 The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer to start or stop the clock properly only when he/she has definite information relative to the time involved. The exact time observed by the official may be placed on the clock.) ART. 2 . If the referee determines that the clock malfunctioned or was not started/stopped properly, or if the clock did not run, an official’s count or other official information may be used to make a correction.

Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 1010845)

The NFHS Mechanics manual, page 11: "Remember, an officials count (backcourt, throw-in, etc.) may be used to correct an obvious timing error"

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 1010856)

We've had this discussion numerous times before on this site.
I've always advocated the following:
1. Only the Referee may correct a timing mistake. The Referee may take input from the umpire(s), but must make the final decision.
2. Once the throw-in is touched inbounds, it is over and any stoppage for a timing error now results in a POI throw-in. There are no do-overs under NFHS rules.
3. 2-7-9 lists the officials counts during the contest. Those are what may be used to correct an unnoticed timing mistake.
4. If an official notices that the clock did not properly start or has improperly stopped and does not wish to halt play immediately because a scoring playing is in progress, the official needs to start a visible count and continue it until either halting play for a correction or to signal that time has expired. Having this count be visible is important because it can be verified via video in the event of a complaint.
5. If the clock improperly starts prematurely, prior to the ball being touched inbounds, an official needs to notice and stop play immediately and before the ball is touched inbounds. The time can then be restored and the game resumed from where that the throw-in was located. If already touched, then POI is required and some small amount of time must be deducted for the inbounds touching.
6. If no visible counts were made while the clock was not properly running, then no correction can occur, other than a small deduction for a throw-in catch or touching. This is unfortunate, but officials can't make their best guess nor use non-visible counts which aren't part of 2-7-9. There does not exist a single NFHS ruling or Case Book play in which an official counts in his head and uses that for a correction.

Originally Posted by BigCat (Post 1010861)

I don't visibly count 3 seconds ...

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1010862)

(Great post. Maybe Post O' The Week.)

Nor do I, but I would use it in a New York minute to come up with definite knowledge in this situation.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 1010863)

If an official called a 3-second violation while the clock was improperly not running, it would be legitimate to remove three seconds from the clock. However, using partial 3-second counts which are mentally done puts the officiating crew on dangerous ground. Why? Because it cannot substantiated in any way and there is no way to distinguish a mental count from simply making up a number in one's head.
In this day and age, decisions need to be verifiable or officials will be accused of making stuff up. Don't put yourself in that situation and use visible counts.

Originally Posted by BigCat (Post 1010864)

Have a little courage and do what you know is right instead of cya.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 1010856)

We've had this discussion numerous times before on this site.
I've always advocated the following:

6. If no visible counts were made while the clock was not properly running, then no correction can occur, other than a small deduction for a throw-in catch or touching. This is unfortunate, but officials can't make their best guess nor use non-visible counts which aren't part of 2-7-9. There does not exist a single NFHS ruling or Case Book play in which an official counts in his head and uses that for a correction.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 1010856)

5. If the clock improperly starts prematurely, prior to the ball being touched inbounds, an official needs to notice and stop play immediately and before the ball is touched inbounds. The time can then be restored and the game resumed from where that the throw-in was located.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 1010865)

Advocating that officials do what is right/fair instead of following the rules is subjective and therefore not proper. I would say have the courage to enforce the rules properly when things go sideways. Making up your own solutions to problems which arise is not the way to go.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 1010865)

Advocating that officials do what is right/fair instead of following the rules is subjective and therefore not proper. I would say have the courage to enforce the rules properly when things go sideways. Making up your own solutions to problems which arise is not the way to go.

Originally Posted by ronny mulkey (Post 1010823)

5.0 seconds left on the clock
division line throw in
throw in completed into the team's front court
dribble to basket
subsequent shot
ball caroms off rim
still 5.0 seconds left on clock
Timer admits that the clock was never started
officials have no count or definite knowledge of time elapsed

What do you do? Do over? Or, go to rebound and finish from there?

Originally Posted by UNIgiantslayers (Post 1010881)

I'd like Rich, as an assignor, to weigh in on this. Any other assignors out there that would care to say if you'd support the no visible count time deduction?

Originally Posted by CJP (Post 1010883)

If there was no one visible count then we are going to do our best to establish a reasonable correction. Flight time of the ball from 20 feet would be nearly a second. A dribble and the shooting motion another 2 seconds.