How to handle end of game clock situation
 

5.0 seconds left on the clock
division line throw in
throw in completed into the team's front court
dribble to basket
subsequent shot
ball caroms off rim
still 5.0 seconds left on clock
Timer admits that the clock was never started
officials have no count or definite knowledge of time elapsed

What do you do? Do over? Or, go to rebound and finish from there?

You have definitive knowledge that more than zero seconds came off the clock. A tap for goal is .3 seconds, and you had at least .4 if there was a shot involved. Start with that and get with your partners and decide if 1 second definitely went off, if 2 seconds definitely went off, etc.

If it is less than 5 seconds, put the ball in play at the point of interruption. If more than 5 seconds, the game is over.

And next time everyone should have a count in their head.

Next time everyone should be blowing it dead when they see the clock not starting. Easiest way to fix this.

You still need a count since you will need to adjust clock and inbound the ball from the POI.

Since the ball is in the front court and you don't have a backcourt or closely guarded count .. You can't just have a count!

Yes, you can -- and yes, you should. It's not visible, of course, but each official should have one.

And, with five seconds left, there's plenty of opportunity for one of the two/three officials to see that the clock didn't start.

There are two options supported by rule: you can either blow it dead and adjust the clock and inbound from the POI, or you can blow it dead, leave the clock where is was originally, and inbound from the original location.

Under 5 seconds, blowing this dead to fix, and possibly remove time to then have the team redo the throw in with LESS time is tantamount to a disaster. You are screwed either way, but I would always count. It's a tough spot.

Adjust it with what count? Supported rule count

You have to catch it right away and leave it at 5.0 and go from original spot

or

I think I would ask everyone at the table if there is any alternate timing device that could help us out (not a likely thing to have around). If there’s no other information that can help, sounds like we just have to take the ball to the POI and give it to whoever had it when we stopped play. Then we finish those 5 seconds and GTFO as quickly as possible.

I don't think that is supported by rule (maybe I am mis-understanding it)

The NFHS Mechanics manual, pgae 11: "Remember, an officials count (backcourt, throw-in, etc.) may be used to correct an obvious timing error."

This phrase seems to suggest that the count should be visible, but it does not explicitly say so. I interpret "an official's count" to mean "when an official is counting", which may or may not be visible. Thus, I am allowed to count in my head in this situation and adjust the clock as necessary.

Personally, I have my hand at my side and snap my fingers in rhythm with the clock. That has worked quite well for me judging the release of the last-second shot and correcting a timing mistake like the one in the OP.

I don't know why so many officials take this stance. If I'm counting in my head, then I have "an official's count". Why would you mess things up more by pretending no time elapsed when you (or one of the other officials) knows how much time elapsed?

SECTION 10 TIMING MISTAKES
ART. 2 . . . If the referee determines that the clock malfunctioned or was not started/stopped properly, or if the clock did not run, an official’s count or other official information may be used to make a correction.

no do overs from the original spot. you may have to leave 5 seconds because you have no other definite knowledge but the ball would go in play to wherever it was when you killed it. i haven't gotten my head into the rules like I should just yet but I don't know where you can go back to the original location under the rules...

I agree and think you can have your own count even when not ten second or 5 count etc. But if you are thinking about doing that with 5 left .....communicate with the timer and your partners before ball inbounded. I will say something to the timer and my partners. talking to the timer usually solves any issues but there are timers who might be a little slow on the trigger. one of us has to see that the clock didn't start. right away..(unless you see an immediate scoring play off the inbounds..then id wait....)timing mistakes at end can be nightmare. always communicate..

We've had this discussion numerous times before on this site.
I've always advocated the following:
1. Only the Referee may correct a timing mistake. The Referee may take input from the umpire(s), but must make the final decision.
2. Once the throw-in is touched inbounds, it is over and any stoppage for a timing error now results in a POI throw-in. There are no do-overs under NFHS rules.
3. 2-7-9 lists the officials counts during the contest. Those are what may be used to correct an unnoticed timing mistake.
4. If an official notices that the clock did not properly start or has improperly stopped and does not wish to halt play immediately because a scoring playing is in progress, the official needs to start a visible count and continue it until either halting play for a correction or to signal that time has expired. Having this count be visible is important because it can be verified via video in the event of a complaint.
5. If the clock improperly starts prematurely, prior to the ball being touched inbounds, an official needs to notice and stop play immediately and before the ball is touched inbounds. The time can then be restored and the game resumed from where that the throw-in was located. If already touched, then POI is required and some small amount of time must be deducted for the inbounds touching.
6. If no visible counts were made while the clock was not properly running, then no correction can occur, other than a small deduction for a throw-in catch or touching. This is unfortunate, but officials can't make their best guess nor use non-visible counts which aren't part of 2-7-9. There does not exist a single NFHS ruling or Case Book play in which an official counts in his head and uses that for a correction.

Last Several Seconds Of All Periods ...
 

I always have a mental, silent, nonvisible, count inside my head for the last several seconds of all periods, and I would use it in this situation. In the rare event that I didn't have such a count, I would never go back and try to figure out the count from memory.

Call my mental, silent, nonvisible, count inside my head an "official’s count", or if that doesn't work for some of you because it's not visible, then call it "other official information". It certainly was "observed" by me (mentally, silently, nonvisibly, inside my head).

If that still doesn't work for you then add a dash of "purpose and intent", not too much, just a dash, we don't want to overdo it.

Still not satisfied? Maybe stir in a little of this (although I prefer the flavor of the rulebook over the manual):

Etcetera (a number of unspecified additional items) is pretty open ended.

I disagree that a visible count is required. Can it help you on video? Sure. I'm not really worried about saving my a..as much as getting it right at end of game. The video will play and people will be able to judge from it how much time went by etc. if I count to myself I will trust it and act accordingly. My arm doesn't need to move in my opinion. I don't visibly count 3 seconds in front Court. My determination of 3 counts just the same.

I agree with mostvelse.

Advantage, Big Cat ...
 

(Great post. Maybe Post O' The Week.)

Nor do I, but I would use it in a New York minute to come up with definite knowledge in this situation.

If an official called a 3-second violation while the clock was improperly not running, it would be legitimate to remove three seconds from the clock. However, using partial 3-second counts which are mentally done puts the officiating crew on dangerous ground. Why? Because it cannot substantiated in any way and there is no way to distinguish a mental count from simply making up a number in one's head.
In this day and age, decisions need to be verifiable or officials will be accused of making stuff up. Don't put yourself in that situation and use visible counts.

The point is not a 3 second count. That is only mentioned because the arm doesn't need to swing. You need to be right in what you decide but don't be afraid to do the right thing. The film will show when the ball is touched etc. Have a little courage and do what you know is right instead of cya. If you know it's 2 seconds take it off. Regardless of whether your arm swings...

It certainly can be substantiated. The film will tell you how much time went off. I do agree with all other points.

Advocating that officials do what is right/fair instead of following the rules is subjective and therefore not proper. I would say have the courage to enforce the rules properly when things go sideways. Making up your own solutions to problems which arise is not the way to go.

I agree with everything you said except this. The correction rule also allows for "other information". That can be just about anything. If the official is counting, how cares if it is provable on video. I don't care about what is provable. I'm doing what is right and what is supportable by the rules.

As for whether a ruling or case exists allowing it, there isn't one saying you can't do it that way either.

While I generally agree, I will offer the scenario where the throw-in is errant and a.) Going to be stolen or b.) Going to result in a throw-in violation. It can be very easy to see the running clock and blow it dead before realizing you just screwed the defense out of gaining possession. Yes, I've had this happen. Sure, it's the timer's fault and not yours, but nobody is going to see it that way.

In that instance, I'd advise blowing it dead after control is established, and subtracting the time allowed for the touch(es).

The rules allow for "other information" as Camron noted. If an official has a count in his head he can use it. He or she should not make up the time but an arm doesnt have to be swinging. The tape will show if the official took off the right amount of time or not.

I'd like Rich, as an assignor, to weigh in on this. Any other assignors out there that would care to say if you'd support the no visible count time deduction?

"Official's Count" (without the preamble adjective of visible), "Other official information," and the "etc." modifier.

It's like the rules editors are being vague to allow a little room for interpretation on this issue; they very purposefully chose not to write themselves into a corner.

I get that you disagree with all of us and that that's not going to change. But I would point out that on the 0-10 scale of loose constructionist to strict constructionist, you are an 11.

I am getting with my partners and discussing how much time to remove from the clock. If there was no one visible count then we are going to do our best to establish a reasonable correction. Flight time of the ball from 20 feet would be nearly a second. A dribble and the shooting motion another 2 seconds. If a play was dead before a rebound was secured then I would go to the possession arrow at the POI.

A referee's duty is to correct obvious timing errors. We are only required to visibly count seconds during a throw-in, free-throw, backcourt, and closely guarded. You would think in this situation that the defense would be within 6 feet of the ball handler and the primary would be counting and this would be a straight forward fix.

I'm going to use whatever resources I can, including a count in my or my partner's head. I can't think of a single one of my supervisors who would have a problem with that.

The "other information" can be the table officials. 2-13 or so. If we can't hear horn "consult table officials and if they ...agree..."
If I'm allowed to talk to them to get information why would I be prevented from using my own count in my head? I think it's pretty clear a visible count isnt required.

Now, as a practical matter...if it happens, whatever time you take off needs to be correct. The tape will show it. If you've taken the right amount of time off you're good. Counting in your head or visibly. If you're wrong on the amount of time/your count...whether your arm is moving or not isn't going to save you.

I personally think that if you know how much time should have come off the clock(not guessing) then take it off. Saying I can't use my own count in my head because it wasn't visible just throws it on the table/timer.., he or she screwed it up in the first place....certainly didn't have a visible count...

That is not a valid way to handle this.

You can't approximate that events must have taken at least X time and use that. That isn't information, that is a guess. You must have definite information....a count.

Agree

If someone in the crew says they were counting, we will go with that. If everyone drops the ball then I don't think there is anything else you can do.

You agreed that there should be a small deduction for the throw in touch.

A dribble and shot are part of the scenario. I am not sure how you can go back to the throw in touch if the play was not blown dead at this point. If a dribble and shot take place, giving the ball back to the throw in team with essentially the same amount of time left is much worse than approximating how much time expired and awarding the ball to the rebounding team or going to the arrow if a rebound was not secured when the whistle sounded. Hopefully some one has a count. If not, we have to do our best to establish that.

I heard a couple years ago at a college camp that you can count the dribbles to take off time. A dribble = ~1 second. Now I've never heard that from anyone else if that says anything about that advice's legitimacy.

Mark T. D. Your take on all of this please...

Absolutely not. Consider a high dribble versus a very low dribble. The time is not even close to being the same for each.

Good point. So you think perhaps a high dribble is 1.2 seconds whereas a low dribble is 0.8? And a "normal" dribble is 1 second? I think you might be on to something here bucky.

Should be? If possible, but if you don't know how much, you can't.

Who said anything about giving it back to the throwin team? Once the shot is taken, that is no longer an option. You fix the clock with whatever you KNOW (not guess) and go to the POI.

I may not do that, but I don't have a problem with that (rules wise). You're counting something. It may not be precise but it is definite. Many officials' actual counts are probably not any more precise.

One dribble, one shot (start to release), ball flight (ideal velocity to the basket is 28 feet per second). Adding those three things up and I am taking 3 seconds off of the clock. I am happy you agree.

If the throw-in team gets the rebound and you stop the play at this point and only take .5 seconds off for this touch deduction you talk about, you are essentially giving them a do over.

I KNOW that after a dribble, shot, and ball flight time that more than 0.5 seconds came off the clock or whatever subjective amount touch deduction means (this touch deduction you agreed to). Coaches know it too. So you go ahead and do a small deduction for the touch. I will do my best to get it right with what I know.

Edit - I went back to post 22 and you are NOT agreeing with taking a small deduction off for a touch. Sorry about that part.

Should any of this be in blue to indicate sarcasm? This seems pretty iffy, and I'd have a hard time defending it to a supervisor.

First of all lets get it straight that someone should have had a count. No one knows that we didn't except the three of us. If I am the supervisor and 3 of my officials where in this situation I would be more upset if they stood around looking like they don't know what to do before telling a coach that they THINK 3 seconds came off the clock so we will resume play with 2 seconds remaining. Things I would critique them on are how they handled the situation during and after the ruling. I would tell the coach that 3 seconds DID come off the clock and play will resume at the POI. In this case after the shot.

A referee's duty is to correct obvious timing errors. I am brave enough to offer my solution with nothing but grief in return. Maybe we can keep sitting around and argue about what is not in the rule book. What would you do?

You can't go to the locker room and use your cell phone to ask your assignor what to do. If you are the referee in this case, step up and make the correction. What do you do?

Easy, sparky. First of all, this doesn't happen in my game as the R because I go to the table in any short time remaining situation and tell them to make sure they wait until the chop to start the clock. This ensures they're paying attention to the time. Second of all, if I don't have a count I'm certainly not going with some "1 high dribble = 1.2 seconds, 1 quick dribble = .75 seconds." If none of us had a count, I'm getting the coaches together and telling them we have no definitive knowledge so we're going to the last known time. After this discussion, I emailed my supervisor and asked him what he could support in this situation. I'll let you know what he says but I'm 100% certain I'm not getting post season games if I try to use some whacky formula for ascertaining the amount of elapsed time.

Feel free to use the whacky dribble/shot timeline, but if I'm on that crew, you're going on my blocked partners list because that is not something I could get behind when trying to explain to a coach or supervisor.

To clarify, you are going to leave 5 seconds on the clock after a dribble, shot, and a rebound take place?

Supported by the little book if no one has DEFINITIVE KNOWLEDGE of how much time has elapsed.

It is an obvious timing error. Is leaving 5 seconds on the clock really correcting it? I think this is more of a test of your abilities to handle the situation. If both coaches are okay with leaving 5 seconds on the clock then you are the man, especially if there where points scored; now the other team has a full 5 seconds to get up the floor and score.

Art 1 of this rule reads that a correction can be made when he/she has definite information relative to the time involved. In this case it is such a short window that I have definite information of a dribble and a shot. If the window was much larger and there where many dribbles and passes involved then I would say we lost the ability to make a correction.

Art 2 says other official information maybe used to make a correction. So your DEFINITIVE KNOWLEDGE thinking is not going to always hold up.

I think the wisdom on how to handle came from Bob way back at the start. Instead of positioning yourself to make stuff up, with that little time left, count!

Bob's wisdom was directed at post #5. I agree with this wisdom that we should have a count. Unfortunately, the original scenario says we do not have a count.

Multi-Tasking
 

If you ARE NOT doing a visible count. Nor keeping a non-visible count. Then are you really counting the number of dribbles a player is taking? :rolleyes:
If there is 5 seconds on the clock when a team makes a throw-in, then I will be performing a silent count. Once I get to 5 (in my head) I will try to take a peak at the clock to see why the horn has not sounded. If it still reads 5 seconds I will sound the whistle and say game is over. :D

No, I'm following rules. Some times, the rules do lead to what appears like a do over. If so, then do that. If you can find a rule that says you must take off anything based on guesses, show me.

And I'm not even saying I'll take .5 off unless I have some information that I can definitively use.
I'm taking off only what I know, nothing guessed. I'm not approximating

My buddy went to our association meeting last night and asked our assignor about this situation. The assignor works college and high school as well. His message was basically somebody better have a count. If nobody does, you can't go back to 5 seconds but he laughed when asked about the calculus of using dribble time, shot time, etc. Glad this thread was brought up, I feel like I learned a valuable lesson about tracking time at the end of halves. I'll be adding it to my pregame.

I personally have definite knowledge that some time between 0-5 seconds may have elapsed. It's definitely NOT 0. I may be 100% confident that AT LEAST 1 second elapsed but 90% certain that 1.5 seconds did. In that case remove the amount of time that we are 100% confident DID elapse and put the ball in play where we stopped action.

I certainly think it's foolish if a player takes a dribble and puts up a shot and the clock doesn't start that the logic uses is "since we don't know HOW much time elapsed we won't remove ANY time."

My point was that the take away from this thread should not be the arcana of what can and cannot be used if no one has a count. The take away should be to have a %$@!# count.

Amen.

At the HS level, most timers are not 100% neutral. They sit in that chair because they are trustworthy and honest, but they are also affiliated with the home school. As such, even the best timers will suddenly and subconsciously become fans in the last ten seconds of a nailbiter....and they will forget to push buttons. They don't mean to, but it happens. Don't just assume that it won't happen; expect it to happen.

Watch the clock (stop and start) and count in these situations.

To be fair I was not trying to make this into a calculus proof. The point was that 3 distinct acts took place in the time frame. Taking 3 seconds off seems better than any of the other options discussed. I am also happy your friends assignor stated the obvious that someone should have a count and we cannot go back to 5 seconds. Other than that no other useful information had been passed on.

Sure it has. You just don't like it.The rules lay out what should/can be done. How is that not useful?

You might not like what the rules prescribe, but that doesn't mean you can just make something up. If you haven't counted, you can't take time off...it is as simple as that. If you haven't counted, you don't take any time off. Don't make it harder than it should be.

When you make stuff up in a close game, and one team loses (and one team always loses), they have a legitimate gripe about you not applying the rules properly. You are never wrong if you follow proper procedure, even if it seems unpleasant.

Apparently an assignor said you cannot go back to 5 seconds which means you have to take time off.

That assignor "college guy" is wrong according to NFHS rules.

To be honest, I am glad this came up as well. Even though there are some disagreements here, I learned a valuable lesson.

I hope I misinterpret your comment. Assignor college guy has done multiple state championships at the 4a level here in Iowa over the past 10 years (largest school class), worked until very recently in a high position for the athletic union, and wrote test questions for NFHS. I have a lot of respect for him as an official and assignor, and as long as he continues to be a great official and the assignor for the biggest conference in our state, his word will take precedent in my world. Sometimes taking a step back and looking at what is good for the game isn't a terrible thing. I don't like taking time off the clock, but he's got a hell of a lot more experience and pull than I do around here so that's that for me. I encourage you all to shoot your assignor an email with this situation and let us know what they say. I don't think having more guys who are actually pulling strings chime in rather than a bunch of guys who enjoy debating the merits of the rule book would be a bad thing.

I've know plenty of very charismatic officials working at all levels that make up just about anything and make people believe it. That doesn't make it right.

The fact is the NFHS has covered this many times and he's wrong.

If you don't like (and he doesn't like it), perhaps you/he should make an effort to get the rule changed instead of doing what you think is better.

You aren't misinterpreting my statement at all. He's flat out wrong to state that you cannot leave the clock at five seconds. The NFHS rule is that if an official doesn't have definite knowledge, which is actually seeing the time on the clock (when it is running and needs to stop or knowing what it was before it improperly started or consulting with the timer who knows) or having a count (when it is stopped and should be running), then no adjustment may be made. That is the rule.

Note that he advises you to have a count. I hope that isn't also advising you to lie or make up a count, if no one had one. That lacks integrity. My problem with people who advocate that a mental count is fine and can be used is that it is impossible to tell such from not having a count and just making up a number. Personally, I will never take time off the clock without a visual count. That way I will never be accused of making something up.

BTW I've worked several state championship games and done a few years at the college level too. I can also tell you that Camron has worked state championship games in his state. Your guy's resume makes him worth listening to, but doesn't make him correct.

If a player takes two dribbles and no one takes any time off the clock, then the the crew lacks basic common sense.

And no one is going to accuse any official of cheating if they take time off without a visual count; unless that official has a history of poor integrity.

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Assigners ???
 

Assigners? Here in Connecticut, we would be questioning interpreters (maybe called clinicians, or trainers, in other states) in regard to rule interpretations.

Assigners, called commissioners here in Connecticut, are certainly well versed in the rules, and have resumes with many state tournament games on them, but they are mainly hired because they are well organized, understand how to fairly assign the right officials, with the right partners, to various type of games, and can also act as a go between between the officials and the schools, principals, athletic directors, and coaches.

While commissioners may be well versed in the rules, that's not the main reason why they are hired here in Connecticut. Interpreters are the rule experts, and are the final local, or state, authority when it comes to rule interpretations. Interpreters will often work closely together with commissioners in response to difficult rule questions from schools, principals, athletic directors, and coaches.

Posted with the usual caveat, "When in Rome ...".