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Quote:

Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 1008142)

I think the first illegal action there was the defensive guy coming around the right side with his arm. Tough to see from this angle. The second foul is the offensive player bringing his arm up.

I see A2 grabbing B2's right arm and pulling it over. It's why it's so important to see the whole play.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 1008149)

Exactly right, they should have instead mentioned that the defender was not in the path of the opponent. As you say the defender clearly has two feet on the floor facing the opponent.

Some would even argue that the player met the path requirement by being between the opponent and the basket. In this case, I'd agree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 1008151)

Some would even argue that the player met the path requirement by being between the opponent and the basket. In this case, I'd agree.

Remind me, what's the argument for defining "path" as the location between the offensive player and the basket, instead of the "path" the offensive player is currently taking, regardless of which direction he is going?

Quote:

Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 1008160)

If the opponent is not moving, is it possible to obtain LGP? If so, how if "path" is only relative to the direct of movement? I don't think anyone would suggest that you can't have LGP on a stationary opponent. That is one case where "path" has to mean something else.

What about an offensive player that is retreating and changes direction to drive into the defender that has come out to guard. I don't think anyone would suggest such defender doesn't have LGP before the offensive player turns to drive towards the defender.

It just doesn't make sense to allow an offensive player to move along, but not directly towards an opponent who is moving laterally relative to the offensive player, only to lunge towards the defender when the defender lifts a foot.

Since the book doesn't formally define path, I suggest that it means not only the direction the player is moving but any direction the player wants to move (to the basket). The very essence of defense is to cut off the path to the basket.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 1008147)

The play at 15:30 is just wrong....in the description. It is a block, but for reasons different than described.

The dialog says "No. 30 red, a secondary defender just outside of the restricted area, never initially establishes LGP by having both feet on the floor facing the opponent."

They then talk about jumping from position A to position B. In doing so, they freeze the action at position A with the defender having both feet on the floor facing the opponent. Huh?

It is still a block because the defender jumped towards the opponent, but it is ludicrous to suggest they player wasn't facing the opponent or didn't have two feet on the floor. The still shot they include right after that shows both of those things. :rolleyes:

I agree with most of that. He definitely establishes LGP. I'm not convinced that the defender moved towards the offensive player in jumping from A to B. He seems to leap to the side.
If that were true, it harkens back to a comment made by the NFHS in this year's POE. Does anyone else recall the NFHS saying that a player could maintain LGP by jumping sideways? Is that statement accurate?
https://forum.officiating.com/basket...ml#post1006385
Note the words "or laterally" in POE #5. The NCAA does not seem to agree with that given its language about a defender needing to jump from A and return to A.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 1008130)

Nope, not gonna use the cylinder signal or tell the coaches that. But I may call some more body fouls when a defender is draped all over an offensive player (NFHS displacement). I think it's good for the game to clean that stuff up.

Fair.

The backcourt rule will be the most difficult thing for those bouncing between NFHS and NCAA, IMO.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 1008126)

I think the loose ball foul change makes a world of sense. This is one I'd love to see make it down to HS. It's a gotcha situation that gets screwed up all the time and I'm guessing isn't really what was intended originally.

Agreed. I've worked more than a few high school games where we have these types of fouls and I'm the only one that's coming in to make sure we don't shoot free throws.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1008140)

The play that needs to be looked out for is the one at 4:00. JD wants us to call a foul on the defensive player but the offensive player grabbed the defensive player's arm then pulled it up to make it appear the defense was doing something illegal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 1008142)

I think the first illegal action there was the defensive guy coming around the right side with his arm. Tough to see from this angle. The second foul is the offensive player bringing his arm up.

In fact, we even have a term for it, and a clear example of the same thing at the 8:35 mark, "hook and hold".