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SC Official Mon Jul 24, 2017 01:49pm

NCAA-M Summer Rules Training Video
 
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/xZ5dNWuZkVo?ecver=1" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

AremRed Tue Jul 25, 2017 09:17am

So many dumb changes. Why not keep the top of the key throw in spot going to the baseline like it has for years? Why have to change the Team Control rule? Why give us a Loose Ball Foul but no new signal for it? So dumb. The committee is just playing with the rules at this point, not sure they have a plan where they want to end up.

And while these changes may be great for D1, it's only confusing things more for officials like myself at the lower levels who still work HS and NCAA.

Nevadaref Tue Jul 25, 2017 09:39am

The NCAA will make whatever changes they believe will generate more money.

That said, one could contend either that the loose ball foul was created because the NCAA thinks higher scoring games (shoot more FTs) are more appealing to paying fans and viewers or that because officials repeatedly messed up the prior team control foul rule when the ball had been knocked away. Seems to me that more FTs aren't exciting and that the rule change is directly a result of screw-ups by game officials.

Rich Tue Jul 25, 2017 09:58am

I think the loose ball foul change makes a world of sense. This is one I'd love to see make it down to HS. It's a gotcha situation that gets screwed up all the time and I'm guessing isn't really what was intended originally.

AremRed Tue Jul 25, 2017 11:18am

At 2:43 I don't see a foul as the defender is giving ground. 3:06 is clearly embellishment by the defender, I don't see what the offensive player did wrong. I feel like coaches this year are going to be very confused about exactly what constitutes a post foul.

I love the cylinder rule, wish it would come down to HS. Lotsa HS coaches are gonna be confused this year when I call a body foul on a defender for, in their eyes, "playing good defense".

SC Official Tue Jul 25, 2017 11:31am

Quote:

Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 1008128)
I love the cylinder rule, wish it would come down to HS. Lotsa HS coaches are gonna be confused this year when I call a body foul on a defender for, in their eyes, "playing good defense".

As would I if I was a coach. You're going to intentionally apply an NCAA rule in a high school game?

If that's not the definition of big-timing, I don't know what is.

AremRed Tue Jul 25, 2017 11:48am

Quote:

Originally Posted by SC Official (Post 1008129)
As would I if I was a coach. You're going to intentionally apply an NCAA rule in a high school game?

Nope, not gonna use the cylinder signal or tell the coaches that. But I may call some more body fouls when a defender is draped all over an offensive player (NFHS displacement). I think it's good for the game to clean that stuff up.

JRutledge Tue Jul 25, 2017 12:40pm

Well I was at a camp that had a D1 supervisor and a D1 official that assigns D2, NAIA and JUCO conferences where we used college rules for the weekend. I can tell you that the application of a couple of these rules was not a big deal. Like where we put the ball in play after a foul in the front court. There were some questions about certain situations and application of the rule which we did not have total clarification about. The resetting of the shot clock was not a bad change. I think that was a way to shorten the time that is wasted and cause action instead of just changing the shot clock from 30 to 24. It sounded like a compromise which works very well from what I could tell. The issue is going to be getting to the season and not having this applied properly for many officials. I have a leg up because of this camp and many camps do not have this opportunity to work those rules. Then again I had 9 games to work on this and watched a few others.

The rule I think is completely stupid at this point was the new backcourt application. That rule was fine. I do not have as much problem with the loose ball foul situation (they did not need to make that change) when that does not happen very often. But the BC situation happens at least in theory a couple of times a game on some level. I had a BC violation where the ball was clearly only touched by the offensive team, but I had to pause a second to make sure I was applying the rule correctly in my mind. Some clinicians felt that rule change as silly as well.

The problem is they changed some things drastically in the last 2 years with around 40 changes. I think that is a lot and some were unnecessary just to change the perception of the game. And the obvious things were not changed like the quarter length and foul/bonus situation. Even though I would not have liked those to be changed, that would have made more sense in the long run.

Peace

Raymond Tue Jul 25, 2017 12:41pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 1008125)
...

That said, one could contend either that the loose ball foul was created because the NCAA thinks higher scoring games (shoot more FTs) are more appealing to paying fans and viewers or that because officials repeatedly messed up the prior team control foul rule when the ball had been knocked away. Seems to me that more FTs aren't exciting and that the rule change is directly a result of screw-ups by game officials.

I agree with you on this one. I've had many occasions where my partners don't want to take the time to properly adjudicate such plays and default to free throws.

Raymond Tue Jul 25, 2017 03:53pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 1008128)
At 2:43 I don't see a foul as the defender is giving ground. 3:06 is clearly embellishment by the defender, I don't see what the offensive player did wrong. I feel like coaches this year are going to be very confused about exactly what constitutes a post foul.

I love the cylinder rule, wish it would come down to HS. Lotsa HS coaches are gonna be confused this year when I call a body foul on a defender for, in their eyes, "playing good defense".

2:43--he's giving ground because his other choice would be put his knee in the offensive player's a$$, at which point a defensive foul would be called. The video is telling us to call that a foul on the offense.

3:06--the offensive player stuck his elbow in the defender's face. Let that go a few times and good luck officiating the post for the rest of the game. Plus, why do people think that an embellishment by a player negates the illegal action of his opponent?

Raymond Tue Jul 25, 2017 03:57pm

The play that needs to be looked out for is the one at 4:00. JD wants us to call a foul on the defensive player but the offensive player grabbed the defensive player's arm then pulled it up to make it appear the defense was doing something illegal.

AremRed Tue Jul 25, 2017 05:41pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1008140)
The play that needs to be looked out for is the one at 4:00. JD wants us to call a foul on the defensive player but the offensive player grabbed the defensive player's arm then pulled it up to make it appear the defense was doing something illegal.

I think the first illegal action there was the defensive guy coming around the right side with his arm. Tough to see from this angle. The second foul is the offensive player bringing his arm up.

BillyMac Tue Jul 25, 2017 05:54pm

Help ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SC Official (Post 1008097)
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/xZ5dNWuZkVo?ecver=1" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Why can't I see this embedded video on my computer? I was able to see JRutledge's videos during the NCAA tournament. Am I missing something (a program)?

If I right click on the video and go to properties can copy and paste the URL and get the video that way, but why can't I just click on the video like I was able to do in the past?

Do I need to turn something on that may have inadvertently been turned off?

I just checked, same problem on my desktop and on my laptop.

It works on Google Chrome but not on Internet Explorer (my preferred browser).

What's the story?

Camron Rust Tue Jul 25, 2017 09:05pm

The play at 15:30 is just wrong....in the description. It is a block, but for reasons different than described.

The dialog says "No. 30 red, a secondary defender just outside of the restricted area, never initially establishes LGP by having both feet on the floor facing the opponent."

They then talk about jumping from position A to position B. In doing so, they freeze the action at position A with the defender having both feet on the floor facing the opponent. Huh?

It is still a block because the defender jumped towards the opponent, but it is ludicrous to suggest they player wasn't facing the opponent or didn't have two feet on the floor. The still shot they include right after that shows both of those things. :rolleyes:

AremRed Tue Jul 25, 2017 09:09pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 1008147)
The play at 15:30 is just wrong....in the description. It is a block, but for reasons different than described.

The dialog says "No. 30 red, a secondary defender just outside of the restricted area, never initially establishes LGP by having both feet on the floor facing the opponent."

They then talk about jumping from position A to position B. In doing so, they freeze the action at position A with the defender having both feet on the floor facing the opponent. Huh?

It is still a block because the defender jumped towards the opponent, but it is ludicrous to suggest they player wasn't facing the opponent or didn't have two feet on the floor. The still shot they include right after that shows both of those things. :rolleyes:

Exactly right, they should have instead mentioned that the defender was not in the path of the opponent. As you say the defender clearly has two feet on the floor facing the opponent.

Raymond Tue Jul 25, 2017 09:13pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 1008142)
I think the first illegal action there was the defensive guy coming around the right side with his arm. Tough to see from this angle. The second foul is the offensive player bringing his arm up.

I see A2 grabbing B2's right arm and pulling it over. It's why it's so important to see the whole play.

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk

Camron Rust Tue Jul 25, 2017 09:14pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 1008149)
Exactly right, they should have instead mentioned that the defender was not in the path of the opponent. As you say the defender clearly has two feet on the floor facing the opponent.

Some would even argue that the player met the path requirement by being between the opponent and the basket. In this case, I'd agree.

AremRed Wed Jul 26, 2017 12:40am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 1008151)
Some would even argue that the player met the path requirement by being between the opponent and the basket. In this case, I'd agree.

Remind me, what's the argument for defining "path" as the location between the offensive player and the basket, instead of the "path" the offensive player is currently taking, regardless of which direction he is going?

Camron Rust Wed Jul 26, 2017 02:14am

Quote:

Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 1008160)
Remind me, what's the argument for defining "path" as the location between the offensive player and the basket, instead of the "path" the offensive player is currently taking, regardless of which direction he is going?

If the opponent is not moving, is it possible to obtain LGP? If so, how if "path" is only relative to the direct of movement? I don't think anyone would suggest that you can't have LGP on a stationary opponent. That is one case where "path" has to mean something else.

What about an offensive player that is retreating and changes direction to drive into the defender that has come out to guard. I don't think anyone would suggest such defender doesn't have LGP before the offensive player turns to drive towards the defender.

It just doesn't make sense to allow an offensive player to move along, but not directly towards an opponent who is moving laterally relative to the offensive player, only to lunge towards the defender when the defender lifts a foot.

Since the book doesn't formally define path, I suggest that it means not only the direction the player is moving but any direction the player wants to move (to the basket). The very essence of defense is to cut off the path to the basket.

Nevadaref Wed Jul 26, 2017 02:31am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 1008147)
The play at 15:30 is just wrong....in the description. It is a block, but for reasons different than described.

The dialog says "No. 30 red, a secondary defender just outside of the restricted area, never initially establishes LGP by having both feet on the floor facing the opponent."

They then talk about jumping from position A to position B. In doing so, they freeze the action at position A with the defender having both feet on the floor facing the opponent. Huh?

It is still a block because the defender jumped towards the opponent, but it is ludicrous to suggest they player wasn't facing the opponent or didn't have two feet on the floor. The still shot they include right after that shows both of those things. :rolleyes:

I agree with most of that. He definitely establishes LGP. I'm not convinced that the defender moved towards the offensive player in jumping from A to B. He seems to leap to the side.
If that were true, it harkens back to a comment made by the NFHS in this year's POE. Does anyone else recall the NFHS saying that a player could maintain LGP by jumping sideways? Is that statement accurate?
https://forum.officiating.com/basket...ml#post1006385
Note the words "or laterally" in POE #5. The NCAA does not seem to agree with that given its language about a defender needing to jump from A and return to A.

SC Official Wed Jul 26, 2017 08:03am

Quote:

Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 1008130)
Nope, not gonna use the cylinder signal or tell the coaches that. But I may call some more body fouls when a defender is draped all over an offensive player (NFHS displacement). I think it's good for the game to clean that stuff up.

Fair.

The backcourt rule will be the most difficult thing for those bouncing between NFHS and NCAA, IMO.

SC Official Wed Jul 26, 2017 08:06am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 1008126)
I think the loose ball foul change makes a world of sense. This is one I'd love to see make it down to HS. It's a gotcha situation that gets screwed up all the time and I'm guessing isn't really what was intended originally.

Agreed. I've worked more than a few high school games where we have these types of fouls and I'm the only one that's coming in to make sure we don't shoot free throws.

Raymond Wed Jul 26, 2017 03:36pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1008140)
The play that needs to be looked out for is the one at 4:00. JD wants us to call a foul on the defensive player but the offensive player grabbed the defensive player's arm then pulled it up to make it appear the defense was doing something illegal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 1008142)
I think the first illegal action there was the defensive guy coming around the right side with his arm. Tough to see from this angle. The second foul is the offensive player bringing his arm up.

In fact, we even have a term for it, and a clear example of the same thing at the 8:35 mark, "hook and hold".


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