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-   -   Two Play Situations, Same Concept? (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/102826-two-play-situations-same-concept.html)

BillyMac Sat Jul 22, 2017 10:24am

Try ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1008017)
Correct -- but in the OP, with the action taking place in the BC and the ball bouncing several times before it reached the FC, the chances of it being deemed a try are pretty small.

4-41-4: The try ends ... when it is certain the throw is unsuccessful, when the thrown ball touches the floor ...

BillyMac Sat Jul 22, 2017 11:13am

Bond, Jane Bond ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett (Post 1007985)
"Superman" is a "she?" Did I miss something on the news?

Dr. Who is now a woman, and maybe, someday, Secret Agent 007 will be a woman.

James Bond: The women who could play a female 007 when Daniel Craig steps down | The Independent

Welcome to the twenty-first century, baby. Sit back and enjoy the ride.

Jqb12 Sun Jul 23, 2017 06:37am

In #1. Is this legal because the ball hit the ground first, before he picked it up?
I thought a player cannot pass the ball to himself. He can recover his own "air ball" and do what he wants after that because team control ended with the shot, but this obviously is not a shot. Please clarify.
Thank you

Nevadaref Sun Jul 23, 2017 07:14am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jqb12 (Post 1008031)
In #1. Is this legal because the ball hit the ground first, before he picked it up?
I thought a player cannot pass the ball to himself. He can recover his own "air ball" and do what he wants after that because team control ended with the shot, but this obviously is not a shot. Please clarify.
Thank you

Yes.
It is not a pass. It is a dribble. Check the definition of a dribble. This action qualifies.

Jqb12 Sun Jul 23, 2017 09:11am

OK, yes I see. I was thinking of it in terms of a pass. Now, if it didn't hit the floor, and he caught it, then it's considered a pass.........that would be another issue - correct?

BillyMac Sun Jul 23, 2017 09:49am

Start Of A Dribble ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 1008032)
Check the definition of a dribble.

4-15: ART. 2 During a dribble the ball may be batted into the air provided it is
permitted to strike the floor before the ball is touched again with the hand(s).
ART. 3 The dribble may be started by pushing, throwing or batting the ball
to the floor before the pivot foot is lifted.

BillyMac Sun Jul 23, 2017 09:51am

Bingo ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jqb12 (Post 1008035)
... if it didn't hit the floor, and he caught it, then it's considered a pass ... that would be another issue - correct?

Correct.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1008001)
4.44.3 SITUATION D: A1 throws the ball over the head of B1 and then takes several steps before catching it. RULING: Since the ball did not touch the floor, the tossing and subsequent catch is illegal. (9-4)


Camron Rust Sun Jul 23, 2017 01:09pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jqb12 (Post 1008035)
OK, yes I see. I was thinking of it in terms of a pass. Now, if it didn't hit the floor, and he caught it, then it's considered a pass.........that would be another issue - correct?

No, it isn't a pass. A pass, by definition, is to another player.

It is an illegal dribble....the ball was throw "to" the floor but he caught it before it got there.

BillyMac Sun Jul 23, 2017 01:22pm

Travel ???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 1008044)
It is an illegal dribble....

Illegal dribble, or travel?

The citation in the casebook play is 9-4: TRAVEL, KICK, FIST, BALL ENTERS BASKET FROM BELOW, not 9-5: ILLEGAL DRIBBLE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1008001)
4.44.3 SITUATION D: A1 throws the ball over the head of B1 and then takes several steps before catching it. RULING: Since the ball did not touch the floor, the tossing and subsequent catch is illegal. (9-4)

Also, the casebook play number (4.44.3 SITUATION D) refers to 4-44 which deals with TRAVELING. DRIBBLING is in 4-15.

Camron Rust Sun Jul 23, 2017 01:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1008046)
Illegal dribble, or travel?

The citation in the casebook play is 9-4: TRAVEL, KICK, FIST, BALL ENTERS BASKET FROM BELOW, not 9-5: ILLEGAL DRIBBLE.



Also, the casebook play number (4.44.3 SITUATION D) refers to 4-44 which deals with TRAVELING. DRIBBLING is in 4-15.

I could make an argument for either. The case has said both over the years.

bucky Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:31am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1008046)
Illegal dribble, or travel?

The citation in the casebook play is 9-4: TRAVEL, KICK, FIST, BALL ENTERS BASKET FROM BELOW, not 9-5: ILLEGAL DRIBBLE.



Also, the casebook play number (4.44.3 SITUATION D) refers to 4-44 which deals with TRAVELING. DRIBBLING is in 4-15.


Well, we need clarification don't we? What if A1 merely touched the ball and did not catch it? If it is traveling then we have another exception to the requirement of "holding" the ball. If it is an illegal dribble then the citation referenced needs to be edited. If it is something else then my head will explode, which isn't that rare.

BillyMac Mon Jul 24, 2017 05:45am

Travel ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bucky (Post 1008065)
Well, we need clarification don't we? If it is something else then my head will explode, which isn't that rare.

I'm not sure why it's a travel but I know that it's not an illegal dribble.

9-5 ILLEGAL DRIBBLE
A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended.


Where's the second dribble. In fact, where's the first dribble.

The ball handler in question must be moving his pivot foot in excess of prescribed limits while holding the ball, even if the only holding the ball is at the beginning of the play.

Nevadaref Mon Jul 24, 2017 06:29am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bucky (Post 1008065)
Well, we need clarification don't we? What if A1 merely touched the ball and did not catch it? If it is traveling then we have another exception to the requirement of "holding" the ball. If it is an illegal dribble then the citation referenced needs to be edited. If it is something else then my head will explode, which isn't that rare.

That's already covered by 4-15-2. A player is not permitted to touch the ball a second time during a dribble prior to it striking the floor.
The second touch is an illegal dribble violation.

BillyMac Mon Jul 24, 2017 05:39pm

Batted Not Thrown ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 1008080)
4-15-2.

Nice citation Nevadaref.

4-15-2. During a dribble the ball may be batted into the air provided it is
permitted to strike the floor before the ball is touched again with the hand(s).


What if the ball isn't batted into the air, but rather is thrown into the air after being held with both feet on the floor (before it's dribbled even once)?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1008001)
4.44.3 SITUATION D: A1 throws the ball over the head of B1 and then takes several steps before catching it. RULING: Since the ball did not touch the floor, the tossing and subsequent catch is illegal. (9-4)

Certainly still illegal. But batted (implies no possession) isn't the same as thrown (implies possession).

The casebook play number (4.44.3) and the casebook play citation (9-4) both lead me to believe that this is a travel violation.

Nevadaref's rule number (4-15-2) deals with dribbling.

So, what type of violation is it?

It's a dravel, or maybe a a tribble.

Stupid NFHS rules editors.

Camron Rust Mon Jul 24, 2017 05:46pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1008104)
Nice citation Nevadaref.

4-15-2. During a dribble the ball may be batted into the air provided it is
permitted to strike the floor before the ball is touched again with the hand(s).


What if the ball isn't batted into the air, but rather is thrown into the air after being held with both feet on the floor (before it's dribbled even once)?

Certainly still illegal. But batted (implies no possession) isn't the same as thrown (implies possession).

The key with the above case us "during a dribble", implying the dribbler was already in progress. If the is thrown into the air, then the dribble wasn't already in progress.


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