Two Play Situations, Same Concept?
 

Had a lengthy dialogue yesterday with a fellow official. Here are a few play situations that I would like to get some feedback on......

1) A1 inbounds ball to A2 in backcourt on endline. A2 pivots and sees the remaining 8 players all lined up, shoulder to shoulder, right in front of him. A2 throws the ball up and over the line of 8 players (untouched), runs through the 'picket fence' of players and is the first to track the ball down (ball bounces a few times) and possess it in the paint in A2's frontcourt. A2 shoots the ball and scores. Legal?

2) A1 superman dives on floor for loose ball, as she is sliding possesses the ball with both hands. When her momentum stops, the ball in her possession resting on the floor. She then pushes the ball away from herself and the ball rolls. She pops up and chases the ball down, is first to touch, picks up the ball and starts dribbling. What is your call, if any, and when would you have a whistle, if any?

1. Legal play

2. I have a travel. (Don't have a rules citation at the moment, but a player in possession of the ball on the ground cannot put the ball down, then get up, then re-possess the ball).

"Superman" is a "she?" Did I miss something on the news? :confused:

Rest easy Mark..... superman was used as an adverb in this situation, not a noun, so nothing has changed in your world!! ;)

Play #1: I agree with Raymond as long as A2 did not make any illegal contact with players on Team B while running through the "picket fence".


Play #2: I am leaning the in the opposite direction from Raymond because I would be inclined to rule that A2's act of releasing the ball when she rolled it away from herself is the start of her dribble. But I am open for discussion o this play.

MTD, Sr.

Then, A2 picked up the ball, ending any dribble. Then, she dribbled again. So, it's a violation either way.

I agree -- as described, I would consider "pushing the ball away" to be the start of the dribble. But if the player then picks up that ball (ends dribble) and starts dribbling it again that would be an illegal (double) dribble.

I mostly just lurk here from another board but I thought I had an okay grasp of the rules. But this one surprised me. Why is 1 a legal play? A quick glance at the (NCAA) rules didn't find an obvious reason why it would be illegal. There seems to be no rule whatsoever against throwing the ball up in the air, running to grab it and doing this over and over as long as you are not "holding" the ball.
But if so, is this legal: A1 catches the ball in the post but his feet aren't well set. He takes a step to establish a pivot foot. He holds the ball up high and lets go gathering his other foot to a new spot and catches the ball in the air. He then pivots on his pivot putting the ball on the ground before lifting his pivot foot.

Or is there such a rule that I missed and this is considered legal because there's some interpretation that makes this a dribble even though it doesn't meet the definition?

Travel indeed.

Case 4.44.5B: "It is also traveling if A1 puts the ball on the floor, then rises and is first to touch the ball."

In the OP, the ball touched the floor, making it a dribble (and, I assume, the ball was released before the pivot foot was lifted -- I didn't go back and check the OP). The dribble was continued. All legal.

In your play, the ball never touches the floor -- tossing the ball up in the air, running (well, moving the pivot foot) and catching the ball is a violation -- for a while it was travel, then it was illegal dribble, now it's ... well, it doesn't really matter, the other team is going to get the ball.

It seems to me the initial question is whether it was smoothly rolling or bouncing. The latter could be the start of a dribble -- which would then be a violation if that initial dribble ended and a new dribble began.

Like Snow At Midsummer, Exceeding Rare (John Taylor) ...
 

A player must be holding the ball (with one very rare exception) in order to travel.

This is that one very rare exception.

Nice Caseplay ...
 

A different slant (not exactly the same as the original post, the ball doesn't bounce in this caseplay):

4.44.3 SITUATION D: A1 throws the ball over the head of B1 and then takes several steps before catching it. RULING: Since the ball did not touch the floor, the tossing and subsequent catch is illegal. (9-4)

Wouldn't you need to determine if throwing the ball is deemed a pass or shot attempt? If so, the action is legal. Right?

Correct -- but in the OP, with the action taking place in the BC and the ball bouncing several times before it reached the FC, the chances of it being deemed a try are pretty small.

Try ...
 

Bond, Jane Bond ...
 

Dr. Who is now a woman, and maybe, someday, Secret Agent 007 will be a woman.

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Welcome to the twenty-first century, baby. Sit back and enjoy the ride.

In #1. Is this legal because the ball hit the ground first, before he picked it up?
I thought a player cannot pass the ball to himself. He can recover his own "air ball" and do what he wants after that because team control ended with the shot, but this obviously is not a shot. Please clarify.
Thank you

Yes.
It is not a pass. It is a dribble. Check the definition of a dribble. This action qualifies.

OK, yes I see. I was thinking of it in terms of a pass. Now, if it didn't hit the floor, and he caught it, then it's considered a pass.........that would be another issue - correct?

Start Of A Dribble ...
 

Bingo ...
 

Correct.

No, it isn't a pass. A pass, by definition, is to another player.

It is an illegal dribble....the ball was throw "to" the floor but he caught it before it got there.

Travel ???
 

Illegal dribble, or travel?

The citation in the casebook play is 9-4: TRAVEL, KICK, FIST, BALL ENTERS BASKET FROM BELOW, not 9-5: ILLEGAL DRIBBLE.

Also, the casebook play number (4.44.3 SITUATION D) refers to 4-44 which deals with TRAVELING. DRIBBLING is in 4-15.

I could make an argument for either. The case has said both over the years.

Well, we need clarification don't we? What if A1 merely touched the ball and did not catch it? If it is traveling then we have another exception to the requirement of "holding" the ball. If it is an illegal dribble then the citation referenced needs to be edited. If it is something else then my head will explode, which isn't that rare.

Travel ...
 

I'm not sure why it's a travel but I know that it's not an illegal dribble.

9-5 ILLEGAL DRIBBLE
A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended.

Where's the second dribble. In fact, where's the first dribble.

The ball handler in question must be moving his pivot foot in excess of prescribed limits while holding the ball, even if the only holding the ball is at the beginning of the play.

That's already covered by 4-15-2. A player is not permitted to touch the ball a second time during a dribble prior to it striking the floor.
The second touch is an illegal dribble violation.

Batted Not Thrown ...
 

Nice citation Nevadaref.

4-15-2. During a dribble the ball may be batted into the air provided it is
permitted to strike the floor before the ball is touched again with the hand(s).

What if the ball isn't batted into the air, but rather is thrown into the air after being held with both feet on the floor (before it's dribbled even once)?

Certainly still illegal. But batted (implies no possession) isn't the same as thrown (implies possession).

The casebook play number (4.44.3) and the casebook play citation (9-4) both lead me to believe that this is a travel violation.

Nevadaref's rule number (4-15-2) deals with dribbling.

So, what type of violation is it?

It's a dravel, or maybe a a tribble.

Stupid NFHS rules editors.

The key with the above case us "during a dribble", implying the dribbler was already in progress. If the is thrown into the air, then the dribble wasn't already in progress.

Case or rule? (Nevadaref cited a rule, not a caseplay.)

I picked up on that "during" also, making a perfect rule citation (except no rule violation listed in Rule 9, which only deals with second dribbles) for a batted ball during a dribble (the ball in the caseplay wasn't dribbled a second time, I'm not sure that is was dribbled a first time, but do know that the dribble was started). Can't a player start a dribble (release the ball toward the floor) and catch it before it hits the floor (especially if he never moves his feet)? The dribble started but did a dribble occur (so there can be a second illegal dribble)?

But the caseplay says thrown.

Nevadaref's rule citation has got to cover the violation in the caseplay. So why don't the caseplay numbers (both dealing with travels) match?

Nevadaref's rule citation gives me some measure of certainty that this is an illegal dribble violation, but there is still a glimmer of a travel violation (moving his pivot foot in excess of prescribed limits while holding the ball?) here.

Stupid NFHS rules editors.

Several Steps ...
 

"Several steps."

Sounds more like a travel than a double (illegal) dribble.

Stupid NFHS rules editors.

Can a player stay in one spot and bat the ball from one hand to the other? Can a player stay in one spot and throw the ball up in the air and catch it?

Of course he can, so there is no "dribble" started.

It's Gotta Be A Travel ...
 

I thought so, because the ball never reached the floor. So how, as believed by some Forum members, can it be a double (illegal) dribble? Not only wasn't there a second dribble, there wasn't even a first dribble.

4-15-3: The dribble may be started by pushing, throwing or batting the ball
to the floor before the pivot foot is lifted.

Stupid NFHS rules editors.

I have always had trouble with this (sorry for getting off topic).

1) A1 is holding the ball in his right hand by having his hand under the ball. He simply removes his right hand and allows the ball to strike the floor.

Is that considered a dribble? Doesn't seem to be based on the definition of a dribble.

2) A1 is dribbling the ball with his right hand. A1 makes a move that results in the ball, after striking the floor and on an upward motion, deflecting off his left hand. With the ball still in the air, A1 continues dribbling with the right hand. Based on 4-15-2, that would be an illegal dribble. I really do not see any official calling that. Or might it be considered an interrupted dribble and be legal by rule? Think of how many times dribblers literally touch the ball a second time before their dribble hits the floor. Happens all the time and I have never seen it called.

1. Yes.

2. I've never seen that

I've called it. Been a while, but I have.

Start with a player holding the ball.
Any deliberate action by the player to release the ball is either a dribble, a pass, or a try for goal. An accidental release of the ball is a fumble.
Given that we can now answer your above questions.
1. Since the release is deliberate (dropping the ball on purpose), this isn't a fumble. We also can easily determine that it is not an attempt to throw for goal, so it is not a try. That leaves a pass or dribble. If the ball goes to another player it is a pass by NFHS definition. If it goes straight to the floor, it is a dribble by NFHS definition. You may wait to see who touches it next, if you so desire to determine between dribble and pass, if the situation warrants. However, you are certainly correct to deem that this action meets the definition of a dribble as soon as it reaches the floor because dropping the ball is merely "throwing" it without the player imparting any force and allowing just gravity to act upon the ball and take it to the floor.

2. Yes, that is an illegal dribble by rule. A player is not allowed two separate touches between bounces during a dribble. If you are not calling this, you are missing a violation.
Quick story: I was a PG in HS. My frosh coach actually taught us this illegal dribble move to split double teams. He even told us it was illegal and added that the officials will almost never call it because it happens so fast. The concept was a hard bounce of the ball wit your outside hand (away from the double team/trap) and when the ball came back up to that hand to quickly bat it across your belly to your other hand as you stepped through/between the trap and then bounce the ball with your other hand and continue on. After some practice, I got pretty good at it and the coach was right that the officials almost never whistled it.

This helps answers some of Billy's questions. There is more to the story though. This is an instance in which it is helpful to know the history of NFHS basketball rules. Consult the NFHS basketball handbook if you can obtain one. It has a listing of all of the rules changes by year. One of them is the elimination of the air-dribble. Yes, there was something called an air-dribble many years ago.
A player could progress down the court by continually tapping the ball into the air while moving, like a seal hitting a beach ball with its nose. Now the definition of a dribble says that the ball must strike the floor and another part of that definition states that a player may not touch the ball twice between bounces on the floor. So for the action of a dribble to be legal the ball must strike the floor and this makes the old air-dribble an illegal dribble.
The NFHS also created rules to define a dribble for a motionless player. A player who stands still and bounces the ball is considered to be dribbling. A player who stands still and tosses the ball from one hand to the other or up into the air and catches it is not. A player who holds the ball and touches it to the floor is not. Why is that the case? Because the NFHS chose to make it so. Those are axiomatic cases.
Now to the remaining case, which is most important, and what Billy inquires about. Player who tosses the ball into the air and moves his pivot foot. We know from the traveling rule that the ball must be released prior to the pivot foot being lifted or a traveling violation has occurred, so we can ignore that part and focus on the sequence of toss and then move.
In this case if the player touches the ball before it strikes the floor, then that is the old air-dribble which is illegal. Therefore, an illegal dribble is the correct call. (This is precisely why Mary S was incorrect to alter the type of violation from illegal dribble to traveling in the NFHS Case Book several years ago. The player isn't holding the ball and excessively moving his pivot foot. He is dribbling in an illegal manner while attempting to move on the court.)
So a player who throws the ball in order to start a dribble, must allow it to strike the floor before touching it again. Doing otherwise has been deemed an illegal action and doesn't meet the definition of a proper dribble.

Obviously, all of the above is only for a player in control of the ball who deliberately releases it. If a player doesn't have control and is batting the ball into the air in an attempt to get it or accidentally has the ball slip from his grasp, none of the above dribbling or traveling rules apply. The official must make a judgment call on the factors of control and the release.

Ancient History ...
 

Thanks. Nice explanation Nevadaref, and a good history lesson. And that's the problem, ancient history. The only illegal dribble violation mentioned in the current NFHS rulebook in Rule 9 Violations is: 9-5 ILLEGAL DRIBBLE A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended.

We do have this: 4-15: ART. 2 During a dribble the ball may be batted into the air provided it is permitted to strike the floor before the ball is touched again with the hand(s); but there's nothing about this situation in Rule 9 Violations.

I don't doubt the validity of Nevadaref's air dribble explanation, too bad it just doesn't match the current violations as written.

Stupid NFHS rules editors.

Is the air dribble related to the air guitar?

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