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bucky Thu Mar 30, 2017 11:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat (Post 1003879)
Bucky, I agree with you as you can see in my post above that there are times we have to wait to see what happens next to see if something is a dribble or pass.
However, i want to point out that your scenario above would not be travel even if the player pushed the ball down right next to him and kept dribbling. A player has to have a foot down before we start looking at the starting dribble with pivot foot off floor stuff. A player who catches ball in air can throw ball down immediately…while still in air…land and continue dribbling. 7.1.1D is the play where A1 jumps in air as ball going out of bounds. he grabs it and throws it back inbounds, lands and then comes in to grab it or continue dribbling. legal.

i know what you are saying but i wanted to point out that the "dribble starting with pivot off floor" language doesn't apply to a player who catches ball in air and lets go of it while still in air.
You are completely correct, thanks for pointing that out. I used that mostly to illustrate the "no one in the vicinity so it must be a dribble" idea. For true argument's sake, just have A2 catch the pass while grounded. Then have A2 jump in the air and throw the ball downcourt. Same thing, no ref is calling a travel when the ball hits the floor down court.

Adam Thu Mar 30, 2017 12:41pm
Whether it's a dribble or a pass is judgment. As bob would say, sometimes you just have to officiate.

Most of the time, we wait until someone touches it before making that judgment, but by rule it's not required.

We're making this issue way too hard.

Camron Rust Thu Mar 30, 2017 12:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam (Post 1003884)
Whether it's a dribble or a pass is judgment. As bob would say, sometimes you just have to officiate.

Most of the time, we wait until someone touches it before making that judgment, but by rule it's not required.

We're making this issue way too hard.
Agree.

just another ref Thu Mar 30, 2017 05:40pm
Another way to look at it: A pass cannot be a violation. If a player throws what starts out to be a pass, then goes and gets it himself, it can become a dribble, which may or may not be a violation, depending on whether his dribble is gone.

If a player has used his dribble, then forgets and pushes it to the floor in an apparent start to another dribble, it is a violation when it hits the floor. If he remembers and runs away from it at this point, it's still a violation.

bucky Thu Mar 30, 2017 05:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 1003896)
If a player has used his dribble, then forgets and pushes it to the floor in an apparent start to another dribble, it is a violation when it hits the floor.
Can't believe I read that. Completely false and no official in the world would call a violation when the ball hit the floor and the player did not touch it again.

Imagine, A1 holds the ball after dribbling, then makes a bounce pass to A2. You are calling a violation when the ball hits the floor? I don't think so.

Camron Rust Thu Mar 30, 2017 05:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 1003896)
Another way to look at it: A pass cannot be a violation. If a player throws what starts out to be a pass, then goes and gets it himself, it can become a dribble, which may or may not be a violation, depending on whether his dribble is gone.

If a player has used his dribble, then forgets and pushes it to the floor in an apparent start to another dribble, it is a violation when it hits the floor. If he remembers and runs away from it at this point, it's still a violation.
Absolutely correct...exactly what the rule defines as a dribble.

just another ref Thu Mar 30, 2017 05:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky (Post 1003897)
Can't believe I read that. Completely false and no official in the world would call a violation when the ball hit the floor and the player did not touch it again.

Imagine, A1 holds the ball after dribbling, then makes a bounce pass to A2. You are a violation when the ball hits the floor? I don't think.

A1 has used his dribble. He is guarded by B1. He give a head fake, puts the ball on the floor and breaks toward the basket. Ball hits the floor and is slapped out of bounds by B1.

What is your call?

Adam Thu Mar 30, 2017 06:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 1003896)
Another way to look at it: A pass cannot be a violation. If a player throws what starts out to be a pass, then goes and gets it himself, it can become a dribble, which may or may not be a violation, depending on whether his dribble is gone.

If a player has used his dribble, then forgets and pushes it to the floor in an apparent start to another dribble, it is a violation when it hits the floor. If he remembers and runs away from it at this point, it's still a violation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky (Post 1003897)
Can't believe I read that. Completely false and no official in the world would call a violation when the ball hit the floor and the player did not touch it again.

Imagine, A1 holds the ball after dribbling, then makes a bounce pass to A2. You are a violation when the ball hits the floor? I don't think.
You might want to avoid speaking for all officials for a while.

Whether you believe it or not: that's the rule and yes, quite a few high quality officials would certainly call it that way in limited circumstances. Normally, by the time we blow our whistle, the ball has already come up and touched the dribbler. The whole point here is that it's not required.

Before making that call, I'd have to be absolutely positive of the intent: any doubt at all and it's a pass until it comes back to touch the same player.

BigCat Thu Mar 30, 2017 06:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky (Post 1003897)
Can't believe I read that. Completely false and no official in the world would call a violation when the ball hit the floor and the player did not touch it again.

Imagine, A1 holds the ball after dribbling, then makes a bounce pass to A2. You are a violation when the ball hits the floor? I don't think.
If the player ends a dribble, forgets and then the next thing he does is push the ball down to the floor like a dribble we've all seen millions of times...then I can and have called it a violation before he touches it again. If the player does something with it that doesn't look like a dribble I've seen a million times(your bounce pass example) I will wait to see what happens. This is what just another is saying and it is correct.

JRutledge Thu Mar 30, 2017 10:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam (Post 1003902)
You might want to avoid speaking for all officials for a while.
Ain't that the truth.

Peace

bucky Thu Mar 30, 2017 11:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 1003900)
A1 has used his dribble. He is guarded by B1. He give a head fake, puts the ball on the floor and breaks toward the basket. Ball hits the floor and is slapped out of bounds by B1.

What is your call?
According to most who have responded on this topic, they would call a traveling violation at the "puts" action. I, on the other hand, would call an OOB violation on B1. Speaking for all officials, they would do the same too, lol. One can't avoid reality.

just another ref Thu Mar 30, 2017 11:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky (Post 1003921)
According to most who have responded on this topic, they would call a traveling violation at the "puts" action. I, on the other hand, would call an OOB violation on B1. Speaking for all officials, they would do the same too, lol. One can't avoid reality.

There is nothing here which would suggest a travel call.

Camron Rust Fri Mar 31, 2017 01:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky (Post 1003921)
According to most who have responded on this topic, they would call a traveling violation at the "puts" action. I, on the other hand, would call an OOB violation on B1. Speaking for all officials, they would do the same too, lol. One can't avoid reality.
Personally, I'd call an illegal dribble. The dribble began when the ball was released. If that were not true, a player who wanted to start a dribble and move would have to keep his/her pivot foot down until the ball came back to his/her hand.

Quote:
The dribble begins by pushing, throwing or batting the ball to the floor before the pivot foot is lifted.
When B1 touched that ball the dribble would have ended were it not for the illegal dribble that already made the ball dead.

OKREF Fri Mar 31, 2017 08:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky (Post 1003897)

Imagine, A1 holds the ball after dribbling, then makes a bounce pass to A2. You are calling a violation when the ball hits the floor? I don't think so.
At some point we have to make a judgement. We all know what a pass looks like and a dribble looks like. When the ball is released and pushed to the floor it is a violation. A pass and a start of the dribble are two very different things.

deecee Fri Mar 31, 2017 09:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky (Post 1003921)
According to most who have responded on this topic, they would call a traveling violation at the "puts" action. I, on the other hand, would call an OOB violation on B1. Speaking for all officials, they would do the same too, lol. One can't avoid reality.
You are 100% wrong. If it looks like the start of a dribble I call the violation as soon as the action begins. That's my expectation at HS and college, and any official who know what they are doing will call the violation. So thanks, but you don't speak for me.


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