NCAA Tournament (Elite 8 Games) Video Requests - Saturday and Sunday
 

Here is the start of this.

Again, be specific of the time or at the very least what kind of play it is you want shown.

Peace

OU/KU 13:44 2nd half

An example of why the Lead should not call fouls above the rim, especially on the other side of the rim

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Just general commentary, no video request. The shot clock is a NIGHTMARE in the So. Carolina/Florida game. They've had to stop the game several times in the first five minutes. It's clearly malfunctioning.

But anyway, I notice that Jeff Anderson does a mechanic/signal, seemingly when the shot clock is around 10, where he motions/points toward the hoop. Is that a crew/clock awareness thing? Anyone else know what he's doing or employ this themselves?

SC/Fla, 10:00 first half. Is this a travel?

Well, here we go again. End of first half of Florida game. Player grabs rim with one hand and ball with other BEFORE end of first half. Why no TF? It is automatic!

Apparently not. But then again I was told I do not know the rule, so go figure. :D

Peace

And at about 2:20 left in regulation of Florida game there was ANOTHER rim grab and of course, no call.

Florida-South Carolina
 

Should've posted this in here. Lol. 50.4 left 2nd half South Carolina, inbound baseball pass. At what point Did the South Carolina player have possession to start counting his steps. It looked like he traveled while trying to slow down underneath the basket? Or was it a great no call?

North Carolina-Kentucky
 

About 3 seconds left in the first half, the last drive to the bucket by Kentucky.

UNC v Kentucky
14:30 in the 2nd half.
UNC player at the top of the key.
Did he travel or was the ball knocked out by the defender?

9:00 exactly left in second half of UNC v Kentucky.
Lead correctly calls goaltending. I was surprised that the call didn't come from the C, but he may have had a whistle too. Hard to see as he was almost out of the frame.

Can't believe that they aren't using the monitor to check the clock following UNC's last basket. Rulewise there is a huge difference between 0.3 and 0.4 remaining.

You don't...and apparently you're not the only one.

I agree. The ball was clear of the net with 0.5 even. That is a huge error that cost UK the chance at a shot.

Concur. I kept waiting for them to announce a correction but it never happened. Initially I thought Higgins was blowing it dead to correct the clock, the official covering the shot had clearly signaled it was a 2 and was not the official to initiate a review of that.

Yes, yes, yes!

He's showing everyone he knows the clock really well. I doubt many of his partners are looking at him to see his signal.

That was a travel.

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Peace

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Peace

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Peace

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Peace

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Peace

You are right!!! LOL!!!!

Peace

Blatant illegal use of the ring for an advantage.
I predict that this will be a topic emphasized by JD Collins prior to next season.

That is great defense. That's why I talk to myself in the Lead not to blow my whistle on those plays.

NCAAW: Miss. St. vs. Baylor
 

1:04 left in the game. MSU player trips over her own teammate, Dee Kantner calls a foul, then the officials discuss and change it to a travel.

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I am going to disagree with all of you. For one the rule states that the goal is not scored until the ball remains in or passes through the basket. Well the ball does not really go through the basket until 0.3.

There is also no evidence they did not look at this. They have an alternate as well and if there was an issue he can to my knowledge let the crew now. There appeared to be a timeout or some stoppage for some time so I am sure they looked at this. But they did appear to get it right based on the pure rule and we know we must prove that we know the exact rule and apply it to the letter. I am not convinced that 0.4 would have been accurate considering that the ball appears to still be in the net. In other words they would be splitting hairs and IMO making a judgment that would be tight at best. They would get killed if they reviewed this later and Kentucky had made a big basket later. That is an easy decision sitting here at a computer screen or on a couch to make such a decision IMO. But hey, what do I know, just giving an opinion that means nothing in the end right?

Peace

I believe that this controversial call could have been avoided if the L was closed down or even rotated over to the ball side. Freeze the video at 5 seconds when the wing has the ball and notice how far away the L is. When the wing caught the ball, the L should have rotated to the ball side. The play would have been officiated much better.

I agree with JRut on this 100%.

Per the 2016-17 NCAA Mens Basketball Rulebook, Pg. 103

Yes, ends dribble with right foot on floor, picks it up and puts it down before shooting or passing

I agree with Jrut. I froze/play/froze play the video and I thought that the ball was touching the net with .6, .5, and .4 seconds. When the ball was no longer in contact with the net, it read .3. I am actually surprised at how accurately they stopped the clock at .3. Probably 100 other clock operators would have stopped it at .2 or less.

I think the clock guy got lucky.

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Peace

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Peace

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Peace

In this one, I'm OK with BI. The ball was still in the cylinder when he touched it so they had that option.

While it was touching the bottom of the net, it was outside of it with the net laying on top of it. That is all that is required. It was entirely through by 0.5.

Should have been a foul. The defender was way beyond vertical...his hands were even far enough out to actually make contact with the back of the shooter's head and also made contact with the shooter's arms while in that position.

I did not see anything that suggests the ball was completely through at .5. Maybe .4 at best, but the video is inconclusive. I think they got it right based on the angles we have and have shown. I think that is a stretch and would take detailed examining to determine either way. I am good with what they did.

Peace

Video Requests - thanks JRut!
 

SC/FL, 2nd half, 7:55, looks like illegal screen (feet too wide), typically not called?

SC/FL, 2nd half, 4:50, Throw-In Violation (Very close, nit-picky, I guess you don't want to be "That guy")

UK/UNC, 2nd half, 1:22, definitely looked like a travel

I agree. I think both defenders got him.

We'll have to agree to disagree here. I'd hardly describe what he did with his right foot as "picking it up and putting it back down."

I'm no-calling that all day. Defender got caved in a little when shooter drove directly into his torso, naturally lowering his arms.

Ball does get knocked away by defender ... once it hits the floor. And yes, that does matter. Sure, Jackson would have recovered it, thus making it a travel (dribble started with pivot foot off the floor), but Monk saved him from that by poking the ball away. Good patient whistle in no-calling this.

The dropping of the ball is nothing. It's what happens next.

Watch the video again, at the 16 second mark, the ball is in his hands and the right foot is on the floor. He then jumps off the right foot and lands on the right foot.

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I do not think this is illegal. I see no contact with the legs or enough where I would call a foul. I am not under the impression that simply setting a "wide" screen is a foul. The contact has to be with the part of the body that is wide from my understanding. At least that is how it is done in practice.

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It looks like the ball is out of his hand before the foot comes down.

This is the right play.

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Peace

I do not see a foul. I see contact with the ball mostly and a shooter trying to move his arms to release the ball. Good no call IMO. Not a good play by the shooter and we get to see this by slow-mo to see if there is any contact. Pass the ball.

Peace

Bump

That might make sense if the arm contact happened after the torsos came together but the first contact was with the arms over the shooter....they were already lowered.

They called this a foul numerous other times and should have been here if the others were.

The travel was in the UNC/UK game.

I'm sorry, I will correct this immediately.

Peace

Corrected it.

Peace

Play that was immediately after a travel request.....

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Peace

This seems like a "call the first foul" situation. And that would've been on the defender with a stiffarm into ballhandler's shoulder. Slo-mo replay begins too late and only captures the end of it, but you can see it out at the 28' mark when the drive begins.

And ... no, I wouldn't have called that first one. Dribbler got by it with little issue. Damn, this game is tough to officiate!

I do not see the defender touching the ball. I see the NC player moving the ball on his own to avoid the defender. I think that is a travel. Again, the angle was not the best as the official's angle, but I have seen this play just in this tournament not called a violation, which actually surprises me as it is clearly a violation of the rules to jump up and then drop it when you think it will be blocked, which is a start of a dribble.

Peace

I have nothing on that play. Even though the Defenders arms were not vertical he did not come in contact with the shooter's arm. The defender started giving ground and the shooter kept on moving the ball back and forth.

The result of that play is why we need to call the first foul. I would have called that foul immediately and then dealt with the complaints afterwards.

You misread my post. I did not say the defender knocked the ball out of the shooter's hands. He didn't. No additional angle necessary. Not in dispute. Shooter drops it of his own volition and without assistance.

BUT the defender IS the first to touch it after the drop, which negates it being a dribble. (That part could require a better angle, but Monk from UK touching it first is how I'm seeing it. And apparently the officials too ... unless they were just caught off guard by the goofy play, which happens to all of us). Not until the offensive player touches the ball again after the drop is this technically "a dribble."

And if that never happened, this is nothing, and perhaps the reason there was no whistle.

Until the offensive player recovers that ball, it's just a horrible "pass," or nothing.

A. You are incorrect, by rule, as to what constitutes a dribble.
B. John Higgins clearly indicates a defensive deflection prior to that point in the play.

Play happens too quickly for the lead to initiate a rotation. Could the Lead have closed down a bit more? Sure...wouldn't have changed his look at the play. Lead should lay off above the rim play opposite...he has to look through the basket and backboard. Should focus on if defender is grounded vs not....and A to B movement by defender.

Basically what he has done is start a dribble. You cannot move your pivot before starting a dribble. Whether the ball is touched is not necessarily relevant to this play if his intent was to start a dribble. The only issue that would have been relevant if during the jump the ball was knocked out of his hand. Now I am not so sure that took place here. And I was also referencing that this has taken place several times just this tournament where it was not properly called. Some of it might have been angle or the official might have not been sure if it was done on purpose and the defender dislodged the ball.

And even a "pass" can be illegal if you dribbled under the right circumstances. So be careful with that being the standard.

Peace

Yes, player jumped in the air and released ball to floor..all legal. Then, defender touches ball first. No travel on all that however.....looks like a technical travel when he initially receives the pass.

The problem lies in the definition of dribble, which begins with the release of the ball. That is what a couple of posters are referring to as by rule. By the language of the rule, if the ball was released as a dribble, he illegally began a dribble after lifting his pivot foot and what comes after doesn't change that.

See what you are saying but don't quite agree. I feel that what comes after does determine everything. It can't be considered a dribble unless he is first to touch the ball after releasing it and it hitting the floor. Since defender was first to touch ball after it was released, there is nothing illegal about this play. We have all seen the case where a player jumps to shoot, is going to get blocked, and releases the ball to the floor as a dribble, as it comes back to his possession. Classic travel case. (always good entertainment to have this happen in a heated pick-up game and watch the argument unfold)

It is either a dribble the moment it leaves the player's hands or it isn't. Where it goes next really isn't relevant. If it goes to another player, it sometimes just becomes an interrupted dribble. Sometimes, it is unclear whether the player was passing to a nearby player but if there is no teammate in the area where the ball is released, it is, by definition a dribble when the player deliberately releases the ball to the floor and not towards another player. Waiting for another player to come get the ball doesn't make it a pass. If they wanted it to be a pass, they'd throw it towards someone, not to the floor at their feet.

The Road Not Taken ...
 

A reference to Robert Frost on the Forum. Is this a first?

Starting a dribble ... illegal dribble ... Wait to see what happens next ... Don't have to wait to see what happens next ...

We've been down this road before. Same road. Same fork. It hasn't changed.

Maybe we can get Theresia Wynns to walk down this path with us. She'll know the right way.

https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.0...=0&w=300&h=300

Gonna have to agree to disagree on this one. Your first statement is simply false. Your own examples even illustrate that idea. Below are some more:

If A1 bounces the ball to A2, it is a pass when A2 touches the ball, not when the ball leaves A1's hands.

When A1 bounces the ball to himself, it is a dribble when A1 touches the ball, not when A1 releases the ball.

If A1, in the air falling OOB, blindly throws the ball IB, it is a pass when A2 touches the ball, not when the ball leaves A1's hands on the save.

If A1, in the air falling OOB, blindly throws the ball IB, it is a dribble when A2 returns IB and touches(by continuing to dribble) the ball, not when the ball leaves A1's hands on the save.

There are also cases (one previously mentioned) that support all of this.

If an official calls traveling any time a player, with the ball in the air, releases it to the floor, and does not touch the ball, that would be flat out wrong/incorrect.

Imagine this scenario: Team A is up by 3 points with 5 seconds to go and is inbounding on the endline opposite their goal. Team A has to go the full length of the court. All 10 players are in the BC of Team A with Team B applying strong, full court pressure. A1 throws an inbound pass towards A2, somewhat high in the air. A2 jumps, gets control of the ball in the air, and instinctively, while still in the air, heaves the ball down court, disallowing B1 the chance to foul A2 or steal the ball, and knowing the time will expire. The ball, in the air, finally hits in Team A's FC, with 2 seconds to go. You call travel. Team A coach comes unglued, his head literally pops off, and every atom in his body simultaneously combusts (nice visual huh?). You rush over and explain to the flames, that once the ball left A2's hands, where the ball went next was not relevant. You go on to say that since there were no teammates in the vicinity of the ball, it had to have been a dribble by definition, ergo, it is illegal to start a dribble without a pivot foot, and traveling is a result. Video of play goes viral along with official defending himself ad nauseam on officiating.com

Extreme example, I know but I felt it illustrated everything the best.

Hey wait, I didn't mean to respond to Camron. Oh no! Broke my own rule!:mad:

And I probably have another fine coming for too many words. :( It took me so long, I did not even get a chance to see Billy's response! Ugh! Would have saved me!

All scenarios aside, the rule defines a dribble as a ball being pushed to the floor. Nothing about the dribble rule depends on what it touches next.

Please point us to these cases.

This is not an extreme example... it's a false example. Go re-read the definition of DRIBBLE and explain how throwing the ball in this manner could possibly be construed as directing the ball toward the ground.

4.15.4C, 4.44.3(A), 9.5 all mention A1 being first to touch ball…
As Billy said, we have been down this road before. I have reconciled it by saying if what the player does looks and is a "dribble"…a straight push down of the ball right next to him…then I don't have to wait to see if he touches it first. That was a "dribble' that ive seen 8 gabillion times before. violation.

However, there are times when I do have to wait to see what happens next, who touches it, to determine if something was a dribble. I do not and never agree that you always determine dribble or pass at the moment something leaves players hand. Example, I end a dribble. Toss the ball toward Camron. It bounces but then he runs away. I then go touch ball first. That is double dribble because i touched it first. if the ball just sat there it would be nothing.

If I havnt dribbled yet and throw the same pass and then run over to get it it is also a dribble. Just because it was thrown towards Camron doesn't make it a pass by rule. It looked like one out of my hand but it isn't one by rule. I can go recover it legally because it was considered a dribble.

Anyway, i did not watch this video. if a player jumps up and on way down pushes ball straight to floor(a dribble we've all seen forever) i think we can call the violation without him being first to touch. If he simply lets go of the ball i'm going to wait to see what happens next.

Let's Go To The Videotape ...
 

Please. Put 4.44.3A(d) up. That's most similar. Thx

Why would I? I did not claim anything, Camron did.

"It is either a dribble the moment it leaves the player's hands or it isn't. Where it goes next really isn't relevant. If it goes to another player, it sometimes just becomes an interrupted dribble. Sometimes, it is unclear whether the player was passing to a nearby player but if there is no teammate in the area where the ball is released, it is, by definition a dribble when the player deliberately releases the ball to the floor and not towards another player. Waiting for another player to come get the ball doesn't make it a pass. If they wanted it to be a pass, they'd throw it towards someone, not to the floor at their feet.

I guarantee that no official on the planet would call a travel for my scenario.

Bucky, I agree with you as you can see in my post above that there are times we have to wait to see what happens next to see if something is a dribble or pass.
However, i want to point out that your scenario above would not be travel even if the player pushed the ball down right next to him and kept dribbling. A player has to have a foot down before we start looking at the starting dribble with pivot foot off floor stuff. A player who catches ball in air can throw ball down immediately…while still in air…land and continue dribbling. 7.1.1D is the play where A1 jumps in air as ball going out of bounds. he grabs it and throws it back inbounds, lands and then comes in to grab it or continue dribbling. legal.

i know what you are saying but i wanted to point out that the "dribble starting with pivot off floor" language doesn't apply to a player who catches ball in air and lets go of it while still in air.

You are completely correct, thanks for pointing that out. I used that mostly to illustrate the "no one in the vicinity so it must be a dribble" idea. For true argument's sake, just have A2 catch the pass while grounded. Then have A2 jump in the air and throw the ball downcourt. Same thing, no ref is calling a travel when the ball hits the floor down court.

Whether it's a dribble or a pass is judgment. As bob would say, sometimes you just have to officiate.

Most of the time, we wait until someone touches it before making that judgment, but by rule it's not required.

We're making this issue way too hard.

Agree.

Another way to look at it: A pass cannot be a violation. If a player throws what starts out to be a pass, then goes and gets it himself, it can become a dribble, which may or may not be a violation, depending on whether his dribble is gone.

If a player has used his dribble, then forgets and pushes it to the floor in an apparent start to another dribble, it is a violation when it hits the floor. If he remembers and runs away from it at this point, it's still a violation.

Can't believe I read that. Completely false and no official in the world would call a violation when the ball hit the floor and the player did not touch it again.

Imagine, A1 holds the ball after dribbling, then makes a bounce pass to A2. You are calling a violation when the ball hits the floor? I don't think so.

Absolutely correct...exactly what the rule defines as a dribble.

A1 has used his dribble. He is guarded by B1. He give a head fake, puts the ball on the floor and breaks toward the basket. Ball hits the floor and is slapped out of bounds by B1.

What is your call?

You might want to avoid speaking for all officials for a while.

Whether you believe it or not: that's the rule and yes, quite a few high quality officials would certainly call it that way in limited circumstances. Normally, by the time we blow our whistle, the ball has already come up and touched the dribbler. The whole point here is that it's not required.

Before making that call, I'd have to be absolutely positive of the intent: any doubt at all and it's a pass until it comes back to touch the same player.

If the player ends a dribble, forgets and then the next thing he does is push the ball down to the floor like a dribble we've all seen millions of times...then I can and have called it a violation before he touches it again. If the player does something with it that doesn't look like a dribble I've seen a million times(your bounce pass example) I will wait to see what happens. This is what just another is saying and it is correct.

Ain't that the truth.

Peace

According to most who have responded on this topic, they would call a traveling violation at the "puts" action. I, on the other hand, would call an OOB violation on B1. Speaking for all officials, they would do the same too, lol. One can't avoid reality.

There is nothing here which would suggest a travel call.

Personally, I'd call an illegal dribble. The dribble began when the ball was released. If that were not true, a player who wanted to start a dribble and move would have to keep his/her pivot foot down until the ball came back to his/her hand.

When B1 touched that ball the dribble would have ended were it not for the illegal dribble that already made the ball dead.

At some point we have to make a judgement. We all know what a pass looks like and a dribble looks like. When the ball is released and pushed to the floor it is a violation. A pass and a start of the dribble are two very different things.

You are 100% wrong. If it looks like the start of a dribble I call the violation as soon as the action begins. That's my expectation at HS and college, and any official who know what they are doing will call the violation. So thanks, but you don't speak for me.

There's No Judge In Judgment ...
 

By definition, you are 100% correct. But sometimes, the start of a real ugly bounce pass and a the start of real ugly dribble can look very similar.

Yes, they can. I only advocate calling it on the release when it is clear...and most of the time it is.

That's rare. Even more rare when you consider it doesn't matter unless the player has already used and ended the dribble.

I'm with y'all.

I was watching the UCONN/MISS women's game on ESPN. With 6:44 left in the 1st quarter, a MISS dribbler performed a dribble that turned out to be a pass. Not necessarily my words but the ones I am using to describe it. Anyway, if Jrut or anyone else could get it, I would be interested to hear what you would say regarding it. Now, the dribbler was always dribbling but... I want you to pretend that she did not have her dribble, rather that she picked it up and then performed the last dribble/pass that was taken by her teammate. Sorry, hard to describe and it is a bit silly to have you "pretend" but I found it very interesting as it is a play that I have seen many times in real life and I would never dream of calling a violation (illegal dribble). Several of you have indicated that you would call a violation. Some have indicated that what happens next determines your call and even some have cited ugly passes/dribbles. All had good points. So, back to the play. IF the dribbler gathered the ball(picked up her dribble) and performed her last act with the ball, who here would call a violation?

(and if Jrut or anyone else can't get the video, obviously forget all this and accept my apologies for wasting anyone's time)

If there's an inkling that it's a pass, then no violation until she touches.