VIDEO REQUEST - North Florida vs FGCU

[bucky]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I can't tell from the angles whether the defender reached trough the line or not. However, if it didn't, it would still be a T for unsportsmanlike conduct since the thrower was just getting the ball and heading OOB with it to make the throwin.

Your profound use of pronouns is killing me. What is "it" in "However, if it didn't.."?

The thrower is clearly OB when the ball is hit so if the defender did not reach over the line to hit the ball, then why would there be a T? In that case, the ball would be on the IB side and able to be struck legally by the defender, correct?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by bucky

Your profound use of pronouns is killing me. What is "it" in "However, if it didn't.."?

Oooo...grammar police. It is called a TYPO. Before you go criticizing someone's grammar, perhaps you should contribute something useful here.

FWIW, I had been referring to the ball where the use of it would have correct. I changed it to refer to the player instead but didn't do it completely.

Originally Posted by bucky

The thrower is clearly OB when the ball is hit so if the defender did not reach over the line to hit the ball, then why would there be a T? In that case, the ball would be on the IB side and able to be struck legally by the defender, correct?

That is the big question. From the video, we can't tell where the ball was relative to the line. Yes, the thrower was OOB, but that is about all we can be sure of. I'd suggest that the C couldn't be sure of the position of the ball either for the same reasons. He was not in the right position to be able to see whether it was or wan't.

As for calling the T anyway, being OOB isn't enough for the throwin to start (and to start the 5 count). In this case, the thrower was just getting OOB and turned around. I would not have started the throwin yet. I would call a T if the defender slapped the ball out of his hands before the thrower could get the ball OOB, turned around and ready to may the throw....the same as if he were to knock it out of his hands when grabbing it out of the net.

[bucky]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

As for calling the T anyway, being OOB isn't enough for the throwin to start (and to start the 5 count). In this case, the thrower was just getting OOB and turned around. I would not have started the throwin yet. I would call a T if the defender slapped the ball out of his hands before the thrower could get the ball OOB, turned around and ready to may the throw....the same as if he were to knock it out of his hands when grabbing it out of the net.

Not criticizing your grammar in anyway, just made a factual statement. I simply want to understand you before making a response. Man, you get defensive fast.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

As for calling the T anyway, being OOB isn't enough for the throwin to start (and to start the 5 count).

The thrower and ball, and their location IB or OB, has nothing to do with the start of a throw-in and the throw in count. Not sure why you mentioned that part unless what I just typed was what you meant.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

In this case, the thrower was just getting OOB and turned around. I would not have started the throwin yet.

Can't disagree more. To me, the player was obviously OB. If ball on OB side and hit, then T. If ball on IB side and hit, then continue play. And not sure what difference it makes when "you" start the throw-in.

No need to respond to this Cam. You won't get any more exchanges with me.

(In some way, this all reminds me of when I was in Portland in 1980 watching Mount St. Helens erupt)

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by bucky

No need to respond to this Cam. You won't get any more exchanges with me.

I love when people can't support their opinion and refuse to discuss it more.

Originally Posted by bucky

Can't disagree more. To me, the player was obviously OB. If ball on OB side and hit, then T. If ball on IB side and hit, then continue play. And not sure what difference it makes when "you" start the throw-in.

This is where you are wrong. When the official considers the throwin to have started makes ALL the difference, and it isn't necessarily when it seems you think it is.

If the official hasn't considered the throwin to have started, it would be T for the defender to knock the ball out of the opponents hands regardless of where the ball was...IB or OOB. The opponent has to let the throwin start before the ball is in play. Once the throwin starts, you'd then be correct. But the question to be answered is when does the throw in start. Does it start with the thrower steps OOB? Sometimes, but often not. At the disposal is more than just being OOB.

[BillyMac]

If the inbounder hadn't yet gotten out of bounds, and the ball was slapped away, would it be a technical foul, or would it be a delay of game warning (assuming there had not been a previous warning)?

A warning to a team for delay is an administrative procedure by an official
which is recorded in the scorebook by the scorer and reported to the coach:
ART. 1 . . . For throw-in plane violations, as in 9-2-10, 10-1-5c.
ART. 2 . . . For huddle by either team and contact with the free thrower, as in
10-1-5d.
ART. 3 . . . For interfering with the ball following a goal as in 10-1-5e.
ART. 4 . . . For failure to have the court ready for play following any time-out
as in 10-1-5f.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

If the inbounder hadn't yet gotten out of bounds, and the ball was slapped away, would it be a technical foul, or would it be a delay of game warning (assuming there had not been a previous warning)?

A warning to a team for delay is an administrative procedure by an official
which is recorded in the scorebook by the scorer and reported to the coach:
ART. 1 . . . For throw-in plane violations, as in 9-2-10, 10-1-5c.
ART. 2 . . . For huddle by either team and contact with the free thrower, as in
10-1-5d.
ART. 3 . . . For interfering with the ball following a goal as in 10-1-5e.
ART. 4 . . . For failure to have the court ready for play following any time-out
as in 10-1-5f.

NFHS
It would be a technical foul per 10-4-5a.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

NFHS It would be a technical foul per 10-4-5a.

A player shall not: Delay the game by acts such as:
a. Preventing the ball from being made live promptly or from being put in
play.
b. Failing when in possession, to immediately pass the ball to the nearer
official when a whistle blows.
c. The free thrower fails to be in the free-throw semicircle when the official is
ready to administer the free throw unless the resumption-of-play procedure
is in effect following a time-out or intermission.
d. Repeated violations of the throw-in, as in 9-2-10.

I understand that slapping the ball out of the hands of an inbounder who is out of bounds is an immediate technical foul, but in this case the "inbounder" is still inbounds (the throwin hasn't started). Isn't that interfering with the ball following a goal, and thus deserving of a delay warning (or technical foul for the second delay)?

10.3.10 SITUATION A: After a field goal, A1 has the ball out of bounds for a
throw-in. Thrower A1 holds the ball: (a) B2 crosses the boundary line and fouls
A1; or (b) B2 reaches through the out-of-bounds plane and touches the ball while
in the hands of A1. RULING: It is an intentional personal foul in (a), and a technical
foul in (b). In (a), such a contact foul with the thrower during a throw-in
shall be considered intentional, or if it is violent, it should be ruled flagrant.
COMMENT: Either act is a foul and it should be called whenever it occurs during
a game without regard to time or score or whether the team had or had not been
warned for a delay-of-game situation. If the player making the throw-in (A1)
reaches through the out-of-bounds plane into the court and B1 then slaps the ball
from the hand of A1, no violation has occurred. B1 has merely slapped a live ball
from the hands of A1. (4-19-3, 4; 9-2-10 Penalty 3, 4)

10.3.10 SITUATION D: A1 is out of bounds for a throw-in. B1 reaches through
the boundary plane and knocks the ball out of A1’s hands. Earlier in the game,
Team B had received a team warning for delay. RULING: Even though Team B had
already been issued a warning for team delay, when B1breaks the plane and subsequently
contacts the ball in the thrower’s hand, it is considered all the same act
and the end result is penalized. A player technical foul is assessed to B1; two free
throws and a division line throw-in for Team A will follow. The previous warning
for team delay still applies with any subsequent team delay resulting in a team
technical foul. (4-47; 9-2-10 Penalty 3; 10-1-5c)

[deecee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

If the inbounder hadn't yet gotten out of bounds, and the ball was slapped away, would it be a technical foul, or would it be a delay of game warning (assuming there had not been a previous warning)?

A warning to a team for delay is an administrative procedure by an official
which is recorded in the scorebook by the scorer and reported to the coach:
ART. 1 . . . For throw-in plane violations, as in 9-2-10, 10-1-5c.
ART. 2 . . . For huddle by either team and contact with the free thrower, as in
10-1-5d.
ART. 3 . . . For interfering with the ball following a goal as in 10-1-5e.
ART. 4 . . . For failure to have the court ready for play following any time-out
as in 10-1-5f.

No. Slapping the ball out of his hands is an unsporting act and is an automatic T.

[frezer11]

Originally Posted by bucky

The thrower and ball, and their location IB or OB, has nothing to do with the start of a throw-in and the throw in count. Not sure why you mentioned that part unless what I just typed was what you meant.



Can't disagree more. To me, the player was obviously OB. If ball on OB side and hit, then T. If ball on IB side and hit, then continue play. And not sure what difference it makes when "you" start the throw-in.

Seriously? Does this mean that as soon as the ball goes through the hoop that you start counting? Where the ball and inbounder are located absolutely are relevant here.

This is true AFTER the IB officially begins. But if a player has the ball and is on his way OB to begin the throw in and it is knocked out of his hands? I'd like to think we would all have a T there. I believe that what you are referring to is the situation where the inbounder reaches the ball through the plane, and that is touched/dislodged by the defender.

[bucky]

Originally Posted by frezer11

Seriously? Does this mean that as soon as the ball goes through the hoop that you start counting? Where the ball and inbounder are located absolutely are relevant here.

Yes, seriously. No, not as soon as it goes through the hoop because when the ball goes through the hoop, it is not readily available. Throw-in starts and count starts when ball is at the disposal of the thrower. I do not feel that ball and inbounder location are relevant to when throwin/count start as it is not described in the throw-in administration. An an example, the ball goes through the hoop, bounces, and comes to rest IB. The thrower, also IB, stands next to the ball for 3 seconds. Clearly, the ball is at his disposal and a count would be started. neither ball, nor thrower were OB but rather IB. The ball's location and the thrower's location, as far as IB/OB, matter not.

[frezer11]

Originally Posted by bucky

Yes, seriously. No, not as soon as it goes through the hoop because when the ball goes through the hoop, it is not readily available. Throw-in starts and count starts when ball is at the disposal of the thrower. I do not feel that ball and inbounder location are relevant to when throwin/count start as it is not described in the throw-in administration. An an example, the ball goes through the hoop, bounces, and comes to rest IB. The thrower, also IB, stands next to the ball for 3 seconds. Clearly, the ball is at his disposal and a count would be started. neither ball, nor thrower were OB but rather IB. The ball's location and the thrower's location, as far as IB/OB, matter not.

Fair enough, but if the eventual inbounder is clearly on their way to securing the ball and is going straight OOB, then you will hold the start of your count until they are there correct? That is why I don't think you can say that the location of either has "nothing" to do with the start of the throw in.

[bucky]

Originally Posted by frezer11

Fair enough, but if the eventual inbounder is clearly on their way to securing the ball and is going straight OOB, then you will hold the start of your count until they are there correct? That is why I don't think you can say that the location of either has "nothing" to do with the start of the throw in.

To answer your question, generally speaking, yes. The location indeed has nothing to do with the start of the throw-in in terms of the definition.

You mentioned going straight OOB, which to me implies some sort of speed/urgency. In that case, yes, waiting a bit seems appropriate. Now, imagine the thrower obtaining the ball at the top of the key (ball got inadvertently knocked there after a basket). He turns, and walks very, very slowly towards the endline, looking at his coach/others for some sort of direction or looking for perhaps someone else who is supposed to take the ball OOB. Looks like a stall tactic or confusion on their part. In that case, I am not waiting until he gets OOB before starting my count. Again, generally speaking, yes, wait until they have secured the ball and get OOB.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by bucky

Yes, seriously. No, not as soon as it goes through the hoop because when the ball goes through the hoop, it is not readily available. Throw-in starts and count starts when ball is at the disposal of the thrower. I do not feel that ball and inbounder location are relevant to when throwin/count start as it is not described in the throw-in administration. An an example, the ball goes through the hoop, bounces, and comes to rest IB. The thrower, also IB, stands next to the ball for 3 seconds. Clearly, the ball is at his disposal and a count would be started. neither ball, nor thrower were OB but rather IB. The ball's location and the thrower's location, as far as IB/OB, matter not.

When does it start, then? What is disposal? What criteria are used to start the count?

[MD Longhorn]

Seems to me that "Not Really An Official" needs to spend a little more time reading and understanding the concepts of this game and the input given by "Really an Official".

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bucky

Yes, seriously. No, not as soon as it goes through the hoop because when the ball goes through the hoop, it is not readily available. Throw-in starts and count starts when ball is at the disposal of the thrower. I do not feel that ball and inbounder location are relevant to when throwin/count start as it is not described in the throw-in administration. An an example, the ball goes through the hoop, bounces, and comes to rest IB. The thrower, also IB, stands next to the ball for 3 seconds. Clearly, the ball is at his disposal and a count would be started. neither ball, nor thrower were OB but rather IB. The ball's location and the thrower's location, as far as IB/OB, matter not.

99 times out of 100, you should not start the count until the thrower has the ball OOB and is looking for a teammate. This is what Camron was getting at. The fact that there are exceptions does not change that fact.

(moderator note) I'm not going to address your other garbage, Camron seems to have done that well enough, other than to say it really needs to stop now.