Clock operator error

[northbendon]

5 secs Togo in the game team A down 2 shooting 1&1 shot missed rebounded by team A two passes and several sec's go by shot made. Clock never starts ..the officials come together waive off shot.. game over correct ruling?


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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by northbendon

5 secs Togo in the game team A down 2 shooting 1&1 shot missed rebounded by team A two passes and several sec's go by shot made. Clock never starts ..the officials come together waive off shot.. game over correct ruling?

Most good officials have mental countdown counts going on in their heads near the end of periods. If this was the case, in this situation, legal.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Most good officials have mental countdown counts going on in their heads near the end of periods. If this was the case, in this situation, legal.

No, Billy, mental counts are not official counts which can be used as definite knowledge to fix a timing error.
If either official has a visual count, then that may be used. Otherwise the timing error is just part of the contest and play continues.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

No, Billy, mental counts are not official counts which can be used as definite knowledge to fix a timing error. If either official has a visual count, then that may be used.

Maybe you're correct. I don't have a citation that supports my "mental count" interpretation. Do you, hopefully, have a citation that supports that the mental count must also have a "visual" component?

[Nevadaref]

When the NFHS rules book lists the counts which officials are to do in 2-7-9.
These are what 5-10-2 refers to the R using. That rule says "an official's count." It does not say "an official counting."

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

That rule says "an official's count."

You forgot to mention the "or" part.

2-5-5: The referee shall: Decide matters upon which the timer and scorer disagree and
correct obvious timing errors.

5-10: ART 1 The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer to start or
stop the clock properly only when he/she has definite information relative to the
time involved. The exact time observed by the official may be placed on the clock.
ART. 2 If the referee determines that the clock malfunctioned or was not
started/stopped properly, or if the clock did not run, an official’s count or other
official information may be used to make a correction

Nevadaref is correct about an "officials' count", but the rule also includes "or" other official information.

In my opinion it's always preferable to have a visible count in such situations, but lacking that, it is also permissible to use "other official information".

The NFHS trusts officials to use their "mental clock" to accurately create a visible count (and a nonvisible count for three seconds), then why wouldn't they allow us to use a mental count when we have it (I'm not talking about just making up a mental count (guess, estimate), but to only use a mental count when we actually have it).

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Most good officials have mental countdown counts going on in their heads near the end of periods.

At the minimum, I believe that the NFHS would allow officials use a non-visible three second "mental count" to correct obvious timing errors. Hopefully, Nevadaref, and I, can, at least, agree on that.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

No, Billy, mental counts are not official counts which can be used as definite knowledge to fix a timing error.
If either official has a visual count, then that may be used. Otherwise the timing error is just part of the contest and play continues.

I disagree. The accepted, and legal, threshold is definitive knowledge. Once doesn't need a visual count to have this information.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by deecee

I disagree. The accepted, and legal, threshold is definitive knowledge. Once doesn't need a visual count to have this information.

Agree...any knowledge the official has can be used to correct the clock. It need not be visual.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

When the NFHS rules book lists the counts which officials are to do in 2-7-9.
These are what 5-10-2 refers to the R using. That rule says "an official's count." It does not say "an official counting."

There are "official's counts" that are not visible. Ok, there's one, but still.

I always have a visible one during these situations, but I can't see where it's required.

[JRutledge]

Until they define what definite knowledge is, we can us all kinds of methods to adjust the clock. It is acceptable to use visual clock, but if we know time should have run off the clock, we only can use a visual count? Nope, I do not see anything that suggests that. Now we probably should not get silly and take off like 20 seconds, but a few seconds I see nothing wrong with adjusting a clock in some way.

Peace

[Rich]

The count in my head is as good as any other count till I'm told otherwise by someone who matters. It's definite knowledge.

[NCAAREF]

So my question is...when do you start this "official count"? With 5 seconds left...10 seconds left...30 seconds left??? I was in the stands for a playoff game one time with Team A down by 1 with 3 seconds left on the clock. Team B was shooting a 1 and 1. They couldn't get the clock fixed so the official said he "would do a count". Well guess what? Longest 3 seconds I ever saw...missed FT...rebound by Team A....dribble... dribble...pass to the wing...dribble...dribble..pass to front court...one dribble...shot...good...game over! So if that official really counted 3 seconds in his head but his partner counted it faster...who was correct? A real Pandora's box I say....

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by NCAAREF

So my question is...when do you start this "official count"? With 5 seconds left...10 seconds left...30 seconds left??? I was in the stands for a playoff game one time with Team A down by 1 with 3 seconds left on the clock. Team B was shooting a 1 and 1. They couldn't get the clock fixed so the official said he "would do a count". Well guess what? Longest 3 seconds I ever saw...missed FT...rebound by Team A....dribble... dribble...pass to the wing...dribble...dribble..pass to front court...one dribble...shot...good...game over! So if that official really counted 3 seconds in his head but his partner counted it faster...who was correct? A real Pandora's box I say....

I would never plan to depend on the count like that. Someone has to have a watch with a stopwatch on it.

The officials count is a backup to what is normally a functional clock. A bit of inaccuracy in the backup is far better than nothing at all.

If the time is around 30 seconds, being off 1-2 is not a big deal. You can stop the clock at an appropriate time and get things fixed. When it gets to under 10, and certainly under 5, having to stop things to fix a clock can be a distinct disadvantage to someone. You would never want to stop a fast break for what looks like an open shot to fix the clock with 3-4 seconds left. Let it play out and count it manually.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

If the time is around 30 seconds, being off 1-2 is not a big deal. You can stop the clock at an appropriate time and get things fixed. When it gets to under 10, and certainly under 5, having to stop things to fix a clock can be a distinct disadvantage to someone. You would never want to stop a fast break for what looks like an open shot to fix the clock with 3-4 seconds left. Let it play out and count it manually.

Completely agree.

It's no different then NCAA officials with a monitor letting a final play play out knowing the clock didn't start on time, then going to the monitor and confirming with a stopwatch. Only difference in a low-tech game is that the stopwatch is in your head.

This situation happened to me earlier this year. 2 seconds left, baseball pass inbound by team down by 3, ball gets tipped by a defender, I start counting. Sure enough, clock didn't start. Lots of stuff happened when the ball came down, but I already knew time should have expired. Wave arms, game over, run off court. Glad I counted.



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