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-   -   2 or 3 point field goal? (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/102204-2-3-point-field-goal.html)

BillyMac Mon Feb 13, 2017 05:30pm

Almost Only Counts In Horseshoes And Hand Grenades ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 1000141)
I think it fits it almost perfectly ...

Agree. With emphasis on "almost". The rule is poorly worded.

BigCat Mon Feb 13, 2017 06:12pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bucky (Post 1000053)
Just finished watching Blazing Saddles so I must, I must add my thoughts.

In my judgement, the player is making a pass, not a throw for goal. (Is there anyone who thinks the player is shooting a shot? If the player was fouled would anyone here have them in the act of shooting? And if so, would anyone here give them a chance at a 4-point play? My guess is "no" to all those questions.)

Ergo, Rule 4 Section 41 and Rule 5 Section 2 allow me to judge that 2 points are awarded. If anyone judges that the player was shooting, then obviously award 3 points.

BillyMac, you indicated "Most of us (hopefully, the rule changed from it's original form (had to be a try) when the arc was first painted on the court) are counting a wayward alley oop pass from behind the arc that goes in as three points. If that same alley oop ball touches the floor, a teammate inside the arc, or an official, it only counts two points, by rule. But the rule doesn't say anything about the same alley oop pass touching a defender. That only leaves one choice, three points.

It looks as if you accidentally left out a portion of the rule (although you quoted the entire rule correctly in a different post). You appear to be indicating that the rule mentions a teammate but nothing about a defender. Below is the rule and I highlighted some wording that I feel includes a defensive player:

5-2 2 Scoring: Art. 1 A successful try, tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who is located behind the team's own 19-foot, 9-inch arc counts three points. A ball that touches the floor, a teammate inside the arc, an official, or any other goal from the field counts two points for the team into whose basket the ball is thrown.

They listed some specific items (floor, teammate, official) but they also have "or any other goal" . Would not the defensive deflection in the OP be part of "any other goal from the field"?

(Maybe I am advocating on your behalf. I do not see how 3 points could ever be awarded in the OP unless someone possibly thought the player was shooting and in that case, I would hate to see their judgement applied to any other part of the game)

Time for bed, I must, I must.

Bucky,
$10 dollar fine for length of post. Pm me and I'll tell u where to send the money.:eek:

BillyMac Mon Feb 13, 2017 07:20pm

Forum Treasurer ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BigCat (Post 1000153)
$10 dollar fine for length of post. Pm me and I'll tell u where to send the money.

All Forum dues, fees, and fines go to Mark Padgett.

He just sent me a reminder that my $25.00 annual Forum dues must be mailed to him before February 15, 2107. For some reason he will only accept cash, and only unmarked bills. No checks. No credit card.

I'd better get going on this to avoid late fees, like last year. Those stupid late fees will kill you.

bucky Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:51pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1000165)
All Forum dues, fees, and fines go to Mark Padgett.

He just sent me a reminder that my $25.00 annual Forum dues must be mailed to him before February 15, 2107. For some reason he will only accept cash, and only unmarked bills. No checks. No credit card.

I'd better get going on this to avoid late fees, like last year. Those stupid late fees will kill you.

With that due date, I would not worry about late fees.

Good call on post duration, my mistake.

"But there is no such language regarding the end of a pass." - I do not think language regarding the end is necessary, based on the definition of a pass: "A pass is movement of the ball caused by a player who throws, bats or rolls the ball to another player." Given the definition, sounds to me as if a pass(good or bad) ends when it touches another player or official or out of bounds.

OP was clearly a pass in my judgement, thus deflection into goal results in awarding two points. Now, there are instances where clearly a thrown(not as a shot) ball goes into the goal and I would award 3 points. Two immediate examples are lobs and someone saving the ball from going OOB. Lobs are passes and many times saves are just wild chucks where the player isn't even facing the basket. No player/coach would argue awarding 3 points in those instances but someone would definitely argue awarding 3 points from the play in the OP.

OK, I am done. Gotta go find $10.

just another ref Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:54pm

If a try that has no chance to go in has ended, thusly it has no chance to count as three. Ergo a pass that had no chance to go in in the first place, has no chance to be a three.

BillyMac Tue Feb 14, 2017 07:21am

Pass ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 1000181)
Ergo a pass that had no chance to go in in the first place, has no chance to be a three.

No chance at all?

A1, from outside the thee point arc throws a cross court pass that hits the hand of defender B1, who is also outside the three point arc. The ball deflects into the basket.

Pass? Yes.

No chance to go in? Yes.

Two points?

BigCat Tue Feb 14, 2017 10:53am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1000194)
No chance at all?

A1, from outside the thee point arc throws a cross court pass that hits the hand of defender B1, who is also outside the three point arc. The ball deflects into the basket.

Pass? Yes.

No chance to go in? Yes.

Two points?

Glad i'm not a horse….:D

BillyMac Tue Feb 14, 2017 04:00pm

Move On ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BigCat (Post 1000211)
Glad I'm not a horse…

Can't we all agree that it's a poorly worded rule, and use intent and purpose if it happens in our game, and move on?

BigCat Wed Feb 15, 2017 04:00pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1000247)
Can't we all agree that it's a poorly worded rule, and use intent and purpose if it happens in our game, and move on?

Everybody has given their opinion multiple times.Over and over again. The horse is dead. And you are now killing the cat.:(

BillyMac Wed Feb 15, 2017 04:08pm

Curiosity ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BigCat (Post 1000362)
... killing the cat.

Nine lives?

BigCat Wed Feb 15, 2017 04:22pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1000365)
Nine lives?

Ha. Down to 2 or 3 on this thread. Moderator plz lock...

Camron Rust Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:46pm

Travel! I know it to be true! ;)

bob jenkins Thu Feb 16, 2017 08:30am

Situation: NBA D League (or where ever it is) with 4 refs.

Play: A1 throws the ball semi-toward the basket. The ball is contacted by B1 within the 3-point arc and deflects through the basket. While the ball is in the air A1 contacts B2. R1 rules the original throw to be worth 3 points. R2 rules the original throw to be worth 2 points. R3 rules the contact a charge. R4 rules the contact to be a block.

Result: ?

BigCat Thu Feb 16, 2017 09:28am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1000392)
Situation: NBA D League (or where ever it is) with 4 refs.

Play: A1 throws the ball semi-toward the basket. The ball is contacted by B1 within the 3-point arc and deflects through the basket. While the ball is in the air A1 contacts B2. R1 rules the original throw to be worth 3 points. R2 rules the original throw to be worth 2 points. R3 rules the contact a charge. R4 rules the contact to be a block.

Result: ?

I'm dead. No more lives left after this one….:(


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