2 or 3 point field goal?
 

This was posted on Reddit and I'm trying to figure out the answer.

Is this a 2 or a 3?

If I'm reading the NFHS case book correctly, it's a 3 point field goal as the position of the defender does not matter even though this isn't a try.

5.2.1 SITUATION C: A1 throws the ball from behind the three-point line. The
ball is legally touched by: (a) B1 who is in the three-point area; (b) B1 who is in
the two-point area; (c) A2 who is in the three-point area; or (d) A2 who is in the
two-point area. The ball continues in flight and goes through A's basket. RULING:
In (a) and (b), three points are scored since the legal touching was by the defense
and the ball was thrown from behind the three-point line. In (c), score three
points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred behind the three-point line.
In (d), score two points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred in the twopoint
area.


Someone in the comments said it's actually a college game so the next question is, what is the ruling in women's NCAA basketball?


Thanks

Edit: And yikes, that was not a good pass.

Does that count as 2 or 3?

Based on the video, I have a 3. The casebook is clear. It does not tell us how bad the pass or throw at the basket has to be.

Peace

Thanks for the reply.

Would the ruling be different in NCAA vs NFHS?

Someone cited 5.1.4 which states: Art. 4. A successful try from beyond the three-point line shall count three
points for the team when the ball is thrown or directed into its basket.
a. When a player scores a field goal in the opponent’s basket, it shall count
two points for the opponent regardless of the location on the playing
court from where it was released. Such a field goal shall not be credited
to a player in the scorebook but shall be indicated with a footnote.

I am assuming they are referring to when a player is confused and scores in the wrong basket. I would not consider the situation in the GIF to be what this rule is referring to. Am I wrong?

I am about to go to my game tonight. I would have to look it up, but the ruling that the NF has came from the NCAA I do believe. I have no reason to suggest that the ruling is different, but I would have to confirm that for sure.

I found it.

A.R. 103. A ball passed from behind the three-point line:

1. Enters the basket from above and passes through;
2. Is deflected and enters the basket from above and passes through; or
3. Strikes the side of the ring or the flange.

RULING 1: A three-point goal shall be counted.
2: When there is no possibility of the ball entering the basket from
above and the deflection causes the goal to be successful, it shall be
a two-point goal. However, when a ball is passed in the direction of
the basket with the possibility of entering the basket from above and
the deflection does not influence its success, a three-point goal shall
be counted.
3: The ball shall remain live. In 1, 2 and 3, when a passed ball hits the
ring or flange and does not enter the basket, there is no reset of the
shot clock.
(Rule 5-1.1, 5-1.2.a, 5-1.3 and .4, 4-24 and 2-11.6.d)



Peace

Well I'll be darned. I never would have figured the NCAA interpretation is different than the NFHS one.

I learn something new every day.

So the OP video is a 3 in NFHS and a 2 in NCAA.

I have a two on the video in the OP.

NCAA it is definitely a two. Tip is the only thing that allowed ball go in.

Now in high school we have the play cited above and also another one where a "try" from outside three line hits defense on shoulder. Ball bounces in. A try is a thrown ball. Ruling Score 2 only. The try ended is reasoning.

So, the first play cited above says thrown ball from behind 3 line, (reads like any thrown ball) touched by defense inside 3 line is 3 points. A pass from wing over the top deflected by a defender at the FT line into basket is 3?

I have reconciled those two high school case plays like NCAA ruling. If ball has absolutely 0,0, 0 chance of going in on a thrown ball, never gets above rim level without a tip, then defense tips it in..I'll count it 2.

I'm interested to hear others on those two plays nfhs. I think reading them like the AR Jeff put up earlier makes most sense...

I have a 2 on any ruleset. IT clearly is a pass that gets deflected in.

Even if it were a shot the shot was clearly over and the ball when tipped was at least 2 feet below the rim, and if it weren't tipped would be no way near going in the basket as it is way below the actual basket. This is no different to me than a tipped rebound that goes in.

Two Or Three ???
 

Years ago, when the three point line was first added to the NFHS rulebook, in order for three points to be scored, there had to be a "try", not a pass, or anything else. Problems occurred where alley oop passes "accidentally" went in the basket, so the word "try" was removed from the scoring definition. I also believe (I'm a little more fuzzy on this aspect) that if the defender, from inside the three point line, tipped the ball, it was originally scored as a two point basket (thus the case play now interpreting this as a three point basket).

Keep both of these ideas in mind as we try to interpret this situation.

I think that the rule, as written, and the case play, leans toward the interpretation of this situation (nice video) as being three point basket, even if we wouldn't score the basket if the horn ending the period sounded before the ball went in the basket because it wasn't a try, nor would we call a goaltending violation, also because it wasn't a try.

Thanks to all who replied.

So for NFHS, 3 points.

Depends on who you ask, I guess. Opinions seem to be split. To me, it's clearly a 2.

4.41.4b.

Maybe Billy can get past the throw in nonsense (please) and post this play. Three point try falls below rim level hits opponent on shoulder and bounces in. Score only two points. A try is also a thrown ball. A pass never was a try..like in the OP. Player hits it and knocks it in when it clearly had no chance of going in on its own. Wasn't ever above rim level. The rule 5 play above doesn't really tell us much about where the pass was headed etc. it's language"ball touched and continues in..." makes it seem as if it was always headed at the basket and had chance to go in.

How to reconcile these two plays? I think college route is best. A pass that has no chance whatsoever, obviously, that is then redirected should count 2. Just as the try , which again is a thrown ball, counts two if it falls below rim level.

2 here for me but this one bugs me...

Nice Citation BigCat ...
 

4.41.4 SITUATION B: A1’s three-point try is short and below ring level when it
hits the shoulder of: (a) A2; or (b) B1 and rebounds to the backboard and through
the basket. RULING: The three-point try ended when it was obviously short and
below the ring. However, since a live ball went through the basket, two points are
scored in both (a) and (b). (5-1)

5-2 2 Scoring: Art. 1 A successful try, tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who
is located behind the team's own 19-foot, 9-inch arc counts three points. A ball
that touches the floor, a teammate inside the arc, an official, or any other goal
from the field counts two points for the team into whose basket the ball is thrown.
See 4-5-4.

How about: Thrown ball (pass) from outside the arc touches an opponent and goes in?

Perhaps, as in a few other cases, the caseplay trumps the rule?

If it's going towards the basket and has a "chance" at going in I'm counting a 3. In this case that's clearly not happening so it's a 2.

A try is a thrown ball. If we only looked at the rule 5 play-we'd say the try that falls short and hits a defender on shoulder...then goes in-- ..was a thrown ball from behind the arc touched by defender. 3 pts. We dont say that though because we have the rule 4 play that says basket is a 2 because the try ended. Try ends once ball doesnt have chance to go in.

I dont think the rule 5 play means that any ball thrown from behind the arc that is deflected by defense and then goes in counts 3. EX. a player from the right wing behind the 3 line tries to throw ball over top to the left wing. Defender on FT line gets a hand on it and deflects it at basket and in. I think it is a 2 because it had zero chance of going in without the deflection.

So far it has been a once in a career play...but im not done just yet.

Try Or Pass ???
 

5.2.1 SITUATION C: A1 throws the ball from behind the three-point line. The
ball is legally touched by: (a) B1 who is in the three-point area; (b) B1 who is in
the two-point area; (c) A2 who is in the three-point area; or (d) A2 who is in the
two-point area. The ball continues in flight and goes through A's basket. RULING:
In (a) and (b), three points are scored since the legal touching was by the defense
and the ball was thrown from behind the three-point line. In (c), score three
points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred behind the three-point line.
In (d), score two points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred in the two point
area.

4.41.4 SITUATION B: A1’s three-point try is short and below ring level when it
hits the shoulder of: (a) A2; or (b) B1 and rebounds to the backboard and through
the basket. RULING: The three-point try ended when it was obviously short and
below the ring. However, since a live ball went through the basket, two points are
scored in both (a) and (b). (5-1)

So if a try hits a defender inside the arc (with the try, by definition, ending), it's only two points, but if a pass (thrown ball) hits a defender inside the arc, it's three points?

A try is also a thrown ball, as noted above multiple times.

Try ...
 

A try for field goal is an attempt by a player to score two or three
points by throwing the ball into a team’s own basket. A player is trying for goal
when the player has the ball and in the official’s judgment is throwing or
attempting to throw for goal.

In order for a thrown ball to be a try, in the official’s judgment, doesn't the thrower have to be attempting to throw for goal?

Can't a thrown ball also be a pass?

Isn't it true that all trys are thrown balls but not all thrown balls are trys?

So, is this true: If a try hits a defender inside the arc, it's only two points, but if a pass hits a defender inside the arc, it's three points?

Here is my assessment of the situation, in a nutshell.

4.41.4 SITUATION B: A1’s three-point try is short and below ring level when it
hits the shoulder of: (a) A2; or (b) B1 and rebounds to the backboard and through
the basket. RULING: The three-point try ended when it was obviously short and
below the ring. However, since a live ball went through the basket, two points are
scored in both (a) and (b). (5-1)

These three words are the key. If the ball is below the rim and clearly will stay below without the deflection, no way can it be a 3.

Perplexed In Connecticut ...
 

Agree.

No mention (below) regarding above, or below, the ring. Also, there is no mention regarding whether the official judges this throw to be a try, or to not be a try. So why does this one count three points? If it's simply a three point try that gets tipped by a defender below the arc (a common occurrence) then I get the three points, but what if this was a pass, that deflected off a defender's hand?

5.2.1 SITUATION C: A1 throws the ball from behind the three-point line. The ball is legally touched by: B1 who is in the two-point area; The ball continues in flight and goes through A's basket. RULING: Three points are scored since the legal touching was by the defense and the ball was thrown from behind the three-point line.

5-2 2 Scoring: Art. 1 A successful try, tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who
is located behind the team's own 19-foot, 9-inch arc counts three points. A ball
that touches the floor, a teammate inside the arc, an official, or any other goal
from the field counts two points for the team into whose basket the ball is thrown.
See 4-5-4.

I would imagine that 5.2.1 was intended to address a ball that is tipped as it is released to make clear that the shot blocker getting a finger on the ball does not convert it to a 2. And 4.41.4 was intended to make clear that once it is an obvious miss, we don't covert the fluke/own goal to a 3. IMHO, you need to look at context, and not assume these are written with the clinical precision of a contract lawyer. Keep it simple: If the ball is below the rim (and not still going up), rely on 4.41.4 and give them the 2. Don't try to be the smartest guy in the gym with an argument they get three just because the cases are imprecise.

Take it fir what it's worth from the soccer ref/BB dad.

Common Sense ...
 

Agree. I just wish that the rule, as written, and the casebook plays, as written, reconciled with each other, and clearly described your common sense take on these situations.

They are consistent.

When the ball is released on a trajectory that may or may not be a 3, we are to assume that the thrower is attempting to put it in the basket...they took that judgement away from us.

However, they did not change the rule on who a try ends....when it is clear that it can't go it. Any try or apparent try is over and a ball that goes in due to a deflection after that is only a 2. (Case 4.41.4B)

Had a play related to this in a college game today. A1, behind the arc, looked to me to be throwing a lob pass to post player A2. So, I didn't give the preliminary "3" signal. The ball went in. I signalled the three.

Turns out, she just has a very strange shooting motion and it was a try all along.

A Thrown Ball Can Be A Pass ...
 

Apparent try? How does the NFHS define that?

See case play below. Nowhere in the play does it say that this is a try, nor that it is to be treated as a try. Note the rule (below) that states that it can be a "thrown ball", the word "or" indicating that it my be something other than a try, or a tap, that still counts as three even if touched by a defensive player inside the arc.

5.2.1 SITUATION C: A1 throws the ball from behind the three-point line. The ball is legally touched by: B1 who is in the two-point area; The ball continues in flight and goes through A's basket. RULING: Three points are scored since the legal touching was by the defense and the ball was thrown from behind the three-point line.

5-2 2 Scoring: Art. 1 A successful try, tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who
is located behind the team's own 19-foot, 9-inch arc counts three points. A ball
that touches the floor, a teammate inside the arc, an official, or any other goal
from the field counts two points for the team into whose basket the ball is thrown.
See 4-5-4.

I don't want to count three points for a pass from behind the arc that deflects off the shoulder of a defensive player inside the arc and goes in the basket, but I believe that Rule 5-2-2, and Casebook play 5.2.1 SITUATION C, indicate otherwise.

5.2.1 is talking about a defender trying to block a 3-point shot/throw such that the defender's foot is in the 2-point area. Don't expand it beyond the intended case. Case plays are not usually meant to be broad and general but point examples.

5-2-2, again, is talking about the general case of a ball throw without considering other complications.

We have 4.41.4B that clarifies that when it no longer has a chance to go in as thrown, it reverts back to a 2 if anyone else diverts the ball into the basket.

Logical, But Not What The Rule States ...
 

Sounds logical, and well thought out, with a lot of common basketball officiating sense.

But that not what these citations state.

5.2.1 may not be talking about a defender trying to block a 3-point shot such that the defender's foot is in the 2-point area. It may be talking about a pass from behind the three point arc. A thrown ball can be a shot (try), a tap (same as a try accept regarding 0.3 seconds), or a pass.

And I get that case plays are not usually meant to be general, which is why I've gone to the actual rule that states that it can be a "thrown ball", which can be a shot (try), a tap (same as a try accept regarding 0.3 seconds), or a pass.

Most of us (hopefully, the rule changed from it's original form (had to be a try) when the arc was first painted on the court) are counting a wayward alley oop pass from behind the arc that goes in as three points. If that same alley oop ball touches the floor, a teammate inside the arc, or an official, it only counts two points, by rule. But the rule doesn't say anything about the same alley oop pass touching a defender. That only leaves one choice, three points.

I don't like that choice, but that's what the rule says.

In a real game, if a pass from behind the arc deflects off the shoulder of a defensive player inside the arc and goes in the basket, I'm probably counting it as a two. I can sell that to players, coaches, fans, and probably my partner, but that's not what the actual rule says.

We just have to use our knowledge of the history and the discussions of why these case plays were created to know where it is intended to be applied.

The 3-point throw was all about judging the intent of the shooter when the throw was potentially a 3. It was never about turning an obvious pass that had no chance of going in into a 3.

Judgment ...
 

Yes, back when the paint was still wet after the arc was painted on the court for the first time. Back then it had to be a try. That changed to allow a wayward alley oop pass from behind the arc to count as three, taking any judgment (thankfully, at the time of the change) away from the official.

I believe that the present rule is poorly written. Can we agree on that?

Thanks Again WreakRef ...
 

I love this video, and the thread discussion that it generated, so let's see it again:

Does that count as 2 or 3?

Let's Keep It Simple ...
 

5-2 2 Scoring: Art. 1 A successful try, tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who
is located behind the team's own 19-foot, 9-inch arc counts three points. A ball
that touches the floor, a teammate inside the arc, an official, or any other goal
from the field counts two points for the team into whose basket the ball is thrown.

Is this a thrown ball? Yes.

Is the thrown ball successful? Yes.

Is the ball thrown from behind the three point arc? Yes.

Does the thrown ball touch the floor, a teammate inside the arc, an official? No.

Does this count as three points? Yes.

Should it count as three points? My opinion, rule is poorly written, no.

I would love to see this same play, but with the ball deflecting off the head of a defensive player. Count that as three and the official will need a police escort out to his car after the game.

https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.J...=0&w=211&h=183

Billy, read the thing on page 8 about intent and purpose of the rules and move on.

He's Alive ...
 

What's worse than an unruly mob of Swiss farmers carrying lit torches and pitchforks?

An unruly mob basketball officials carrying lit torches and pitchforks.

Poorly written rule. I'll hang my hat on intent and purpose. But, still a poorly written rule.
And I still love WreckRef's video. You can't take that away from me.

Just finished watching Blazing Saddles so I must, I must add my thoughts.

In my judgement, the player is making a pass, not a throw for goal. (Is there anyone who thinks the player is shooting a shot? If the player was fouled would anyone here have them in the act of shooting? And if so, would anyone here give them a chance at a 4-point play? My guess is "no" to all those questions.)

Ergo, Rule 4 Section 41 and Rule 5 Section 2 allow me to judge that 2 points are awarded. If anyone judges that the player was shooting, then obviously award 3 points.

BillyMac, you indicated "Most of us (hopefully, the rule changed from it's original form (had to be a try) when the arc was first painted on the court) are counting a wayward alley oop pass from behind the arc that goes in as three points. If that same alley oop ball touches the floor, a teammate inside the arc, or an official, it only counts two points, by rule. But the rule doesn't say anything about the same alley oop pass touching a defender. That only leaves one choice, three points.

It looks as if you accidentally left out a portion of the rule (although you quoted the entire rule correctly in a different post). You appear to be indicating that the rule mentions a teammate but nothing about a defender. Below is the rule and I highlighted some wording that I feel includes a defensive player:

5-2 2 Scoring: Art. 1 A successful try, tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who is located behind the team's own 19-foot, 9-inch arc counts three points. A ball that touches the floor, a teammate inside the arc, an official, or any other goal from the field counts two points for the team into whose basket the ball is thrown.

They listed some specific items (floor, teammate, official) but they also have "or any other goal" . Would not the defensive deflection in the OP be part of "any other goal from the field"?

(Maybe I am advocating on your behalf. I do not see how 3 points could ever be awarded in the OP unless someone possibly thought the player was shooting and in that case, I would hate to see their judgement applied to any other part of the game)

Time for bed, I must, I must.

Any Other Goal From The Field ...
 

Nice try. I believe that "any other goal from the field" refers to shots (or wayward passes) from inside the arc, could be a layup, could be a midrange jumper, could be a dunk.

Poorly worded rule. Let's just go with intent and purpose.

I'm counting this as a 3. Rules support is there.

Remind me if it ever happens to me. It hasn't and likely never will.

Why would you ignore the case play that says otherwise?

It has obviously happened and will happen again.

Camron, your post/case(involves a try) leads me to believe that you feel the player was attempting a throw for goal or shot. Is it correct that you feel the player was shooting?

I agree IF the shot has clearly fallen short. In the video from the OP, the shot/pass has not had the opportunity to make it to ring level, much less fall below it. If I encounter this case, I'm counting 3. If I have to judge whether it is a shot or pass? Well much like the burden of proof lies with the prosecution, I think I'm going with a shot until proven a pass.

Poorly Worded Rule ...
 

The caseplay involves a try. The video involves a pass. Passes don't end when they obviously fall short and below the ring. Trys end under those same circumstances.

This op play was clearly a pass and had no chance to go in until the deflection. If any thrown ball counts 3 if thrown from outside arc then we wouldn't have a need for the rule 4 play. A try is a thrown ball. We'd Use rule 5 play and nothing else matters. Because we DO have the rule 4 play, below ring level phrase, we know rule 5 play can't really mean ANY thrown ball touched by D is 3 points. What does it mean?

I had a wing to wing pass deflected by a 6'7" defender at FT line. It went straight back and in. If I only considered rule 5 play it should been 3. Because rule 4 play I counted 2. If a pass has ANY ANY remote chance of going in and it's tipped by defender I'll count 3. If it has no chance without the deflection I'll count 2. I think we need to consider the plays together and figure out a meaning instead of just looking at each one individually.

Because I don't think the case play fits the video in this thread.

It didn't make it to the ring level but was falling....with no chance to enter. It was not going in. I think that is the relevant point from the case.

You're to judge shot over pass when there is ambiguity...no guessing the intent. But point of the case above is that when it is clear that it is not going in, any possible shot is over. We still judge the end of the "try"/"throw".

Really. I think it fits it almost perfectly....a throw that drops well short and isn't clearly not doing in that is deflected up on a new path such that it does in.

The only differences are head/shoulder/hand and the word try vs throw.

It's A Pass ...
 

Part of the definition of how a try ends (and part of the goaltending definition). But there is no such language regarding the end of a pass.

Don't even try to describe what occurs in the video as a try. It isn't a try. It's a pass. One can't use language that describes how the try ends, because it's not a try. It's a pass.

Almost Only Counts In Horseshoes And Hand Grenades ...
 

Agree. With emphasis on "almost". The rule is poorly worded.

Bucky,
$10 dollar fine for length of post. Pm me and I'll tell u where to send the money.:eek:

Forum Treasurer ...
 

All Forum dues, fees, and fines go to Mark Padgett.

He just sent me a reminder that my $25.00 annual Forum dues must be mailed to him before February 15, 2107. For some reason he will only accept cash, and only unmarked bills. No checks. No credit card.

I'd better get going on this to avoid late fees, like last year. Those stupid late fees will kill you.

With that due date, I would not worry about late fees.

Good call on post duration, my mistake.

"But there is no such language regarding the end of a pass." - I do not think language regarding the end is necessary, based on the definition of a pass: "A pass is movement of the ball caused by a player who throws, bats or rolls the ball to another player." Given the definition, sounds to me as if a pass(good or bad) ends when it touches another player or official or out of bounds.

OP was clearly a pass in my judgement, thus deflection into goal results in awarding two points. Now, there are instances where clearly a thrown(not as a shot) ball goes into the goal and I would award 3 points. Two immediate examples are lobs and someone saving the ball from going OOB. Lobs are passes and many times saves are just wild chucks where the player isn't even facing the basket. No player/coach would argue awarding 3 points in those instances but someone would definitely argue awarding 3 points from the play in the OP.

OK, I am done. Gotta go find $10.

If a try that has no chance to go in has ended, thusly it has no chance to count as three. Ergo a pass that had no chance to go in in the first place, has no chance to be a three.

Pass ...
 

No chance at all?

A1, from outside the thee point arc throws a cross court pass that hits the hand of defender B1, who is also outside the three point arc. The ball deflects into the basket.

Pass? Yes.

No chance to go in? Yes.

Two points?

Glad i'm not a horse….:D

Move On ...
 

Can't we all agree that it's a poorly worded rule, and use intent and purpose if it happens in our game, and move on?

Everybody has given their opinion multiple times.Over and over again. The horse is dead. And you are now killing the cat.:(

Curiosity ...
 

Nine lives?

Ha. Down to 2 or 3 on this thread. Moderator plz lock...

Travel! I know it to be true! ;)

Situation: NBA D League (or where ever it is) with 4 refs.

Play: A1 throws the ball semi-toward the basket. The ball is contacted by B1 within the 3-point arc and deflects through the basket. While the ball is in the air A1 contacts B2. R1 rules the original throw to be worth 3 points. R2 rules the original throw to be worth 2 points. R3 rules the contact a charge. R4 rules the contact to be a block.

Result: ?

I'm dead. No more lives left after this one….:(