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-   -   Duke @ Notre Dame Plays (Video) (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/102193-duke-notre-dame-plays-video.html)

ballgame99 Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:08pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 999003)
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LATE WHISTLE!

My God, I can't BELIEVE there are officials saying this. I expect it from clueless coaches, but not from officials who, supposedly, know better.

Look at the trail -- he's ALREADY waving off the shot as the player finishes. It's obvious that he called it on the curl and had no intention of awarding shots here.

#3 -- If the T is calling a hold/push to keep the player down, I don't hate the call. I don't particularly like it, either.

Sorry to have offended you. But my comment is based on the fact that in the last replay of the video the whistle doesn't blow until A1 is finishing down at the block. If that whistle is for a foul that happened two steps ago when he was turning the corner at the elbow, then yes, that is a late whistle. If you aren't going to let him play through it, and you aren't going to award shots, then why let him play through it and let him go up for a shot and get fouled again before you blow? I fully understand the concept of a patient whistle and to let the play happen, but isn't part of that seeing if the guy can play through a smaller foul to allow him to finish? It has always been my understanding that if you let him play through a small foul and then he gets fouled again going up for the shot you don't go back and say 'no shot' I have a hand check back here. This officials mechanics were very good, he clearly motioned that he had no shot, but that doesn't change the fact that he waited to long to blow if he was calling the hand check. And let's be honest, "waited too long" is a split second in this case.

And on 3, I wasn't clear what I meant, I understand that is T's call, but in this particular case the T was at a bad angle and was pretty deep, and he probably guessed there was a push, so he should just hold off on that call.

Remington Wed Feb 01, 2017 01:18pm

On play #2.........If you slow it down you can see it is a 10-1-4 foul before the ball is gathered. Yes, I had to slow it down to see that and typically if you have to slow it down either call is supported at live game speed. The player has his right forearm on the players side and left hand on his shoulder as he turns the corner. The official had a patient whistle but he also needs time to process it. IMO either call was supported when the observer broke down the play.

so cal lurker Wed Feb 01, 2017 01:21pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ballgame99 (Post 999012)
he probably guessed there was a push, so he should just hold off on that call.

Seriously? You're going to critique a D1 official by assuming that he guessed and based on that conclude that he should have held off? There's no question there was a push there -- the only question is whether it should have been called. I'm never a fan of isolating a single play like this on that type of contact. We expect players to adjust to the game that is being called by the officials that day -- but then we critique a call out of context of the other calls in the game. In a vaccum, I'm inclined to think it should be called, BUT in my mind it is certainly gray enough that the context of the game such that the level of contact being permitted throughout determines if it was (A) a clear call that had to be made, (B) a 50-50 call that could go either way, or (C) a "gotcha" call that came out of nowhere. (And I haven't seen any of the game other than the three clips, so I have no way to pick one of the categories.)

Rich Wed Feb 01, 2017 01:41pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ballgame99 (Post 999012)
Sorry to have offended you. But my comment is based on the fact that in the last replay of the video the whistle doesn't blow until A1 is finishing down at the block. If that whistle is for a foul that happened two steps ago when he was turning the corner at the elbow, then yes, that is a late whistle. If you aren't going to let him play through it, and you aren't going to award shots, then why let him play through it and let him go up for a shot and get fouled again before you blow? I fully understand the concept of a patient whistle and to let the play happen, but isn't part of that seeing if the guy can play through a smaller foul to allow him to finish? It has always been my understanding that if you let him play through a small foul and then he gets fouled again going up for the shot you don't go back and say 'no shot' I have a hand check back here. This officials mechanics were very good, he clearly motioned that he had no shot, but that doesn't change the fact that he waited to long to blow if he was calling the hand check. And let's be honest, "waited too long" is a split second in this case.

And on 3, I wasn't clear what I meant, I understand that is T's call, but in this particular case the T was at a bad angle and was pretty deep, and he probably guessed there was a push, so he should just hold off on that call.

There is no such thing as waiting too long to blow. Clearly you don't understand that concept.

And on #3, I would categorize that as a hold moreso than a push.

so cal lurker Wed Feb 01, 2017 02:31pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 999018)
There is no such thing as waiting too long to blow. Clearly you don't understand that concept.

Question from the soccer referee who doesn't do BB: In this context, what is the *point* of waiting? If it's to see if he gets through it, he does and makes the basket. Is it just thinking and running back through your head?

(In soccer, if we were waiting we would call the more serious offense -- the later foul on the shot. But this ain't soccer . . . )

Rich Wed Feb 01, 2017 02:45pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by so cal lurker (Post 999023)
Question from the soccer referee who doesn't do BB: In this context, what is the *point* of waiting? If it's to see if he gets through it, he does and makes the basket. Is it just thinking and running back through your head?

(In soccer, if we were waiting we would call the more serious offense -- the later foul on the shot. But this ain't soccer . . . )

It's processing the play and making sure that he's right.

Lots of coaches are faster than me when identifying travels or fouls, but I have to actually be right -- and that means that all plays deserve that extra processing time.

jeremy341a Wed Feb 01, 2017 03:03pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 999018)
There is no such thing as waiting too long to blow. Clearly you don't understand that concept.

And on #3, I would categorize that as a hold moreso than a push.

Honest question and not argumentative. Why would you wait if you are going to call the first contact a foul anyways?

On 3 right or wrong if he doesn't have his hands on his back he doesn't get called for the foul. He put the official into a bad spot.

MD Longhorn Wed Feb 01, 2017 03:53pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeremy341a (Post 999025)
Honest question and not argumentative. Why would you wait if you are going to call the first contact a foul anyways?

If you are an official, you shouldn't have to ask this.

It's not that he's seeing the contact, processing it, deciding it's a foul, and then waiting some more...

It's that he's waiting until he's processed what he has seen, and then calling it.

Rich Wed Feb 01, 2017 03:56pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeremy341a (Post 999025)
Honest question and not argumentative. Why would you wait if you are going to call the first contact a foul anyways?

On 3 right or wrong if he doesn't have his hands on his back he doesn't get called for the foul. He put the official into a bad spot.

Cause I'm not ever in a position where I'm locked and loaded.

"Watching, watching, 2 hands, that's a foul, WHISTLE."

It wasn't that long.

jeremy341a Wed Feb 01, 2017 04:02pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn (Post 999027)
If you are an official, you shouldn't have to ask this.

It's not that he's seeing the contact, processing it, deciding it's a foul, and then waiting some more...

It's that he's waiting until he's processed what he has seen, and then calling it.


My mistake I will give back my 7 games I have yet this week.

jeremy341a Wed Feb 01, 2017 04:05pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 999028)
Cause I'm not ever in a position where I'm locked and loaded.

"Watching, watching, 2 hands, that's a foul, WHISTLE."

It wasn't that long.

It wasn't that quick either for a pretty simple call. Whistle at the moment of release makes it look bad. Although IMO he was correct that the original foul was before shooting motion began.

MD Longhorn Wed Feb 01, 2017 04:06pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeremy341a (Post 999031)
My mistake I will give back my 7 games I have yet this week.

Sorry... you said you were asking an honest question. I believed you.

The only reason I said, "if you are an official" is that I don't know you and you might not have been one - a coach or fan could have asked that question. That said ... since you've been on the court, I'm not following why you didn't understand what Rich was saying.

Bob Bball Wed Feb 01, 2017 04:19pm

Big Boys
 
These officials are big boys in a big league. hey did not get here without making mistakes and learning from them.
I would think once they sat down talked , saw the video, they would admit that the calls were suspect at best, and survive through a learning situation.
One of the good things about officiating, you learn in every game!

Rich Wed Feb 01, 2017 04:27pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeremy341a (Post 999031)
My mistake I will give back my 7 games I have yet this week.

I might give mine back tomorrow. I could use a night off.

Raymond Wed Feb 01, 2017 04:29pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 999036)
I might give mine back tomorrow. I could use a night off.

I never want to have 7 games in week.


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