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[Rich]

You say "issues" like school are just making stuff up.

I have few schools playing JV2 or FR. Some don't have JV teams. Many of the MKE schools have 4 levels.

I'm not for a second excusing the low pay. But don't think there isn't an issue cause more rural districts do it.

Further, why shouldn't supply and demand not be part of the decision on what to pay people? Till we're all willing to take time off and send a message, what incentive besides good faith do conferences have to fix things?

I've been on the commish side for 3 years. 3-person was brought forward and approved in my first meeting (me along with the outgoing commish) for last season. So schools already increased their spend at the V level by 50% last season as we held the pay at the same level ($60). Expecting schools to then increase again immediately is a tough sell, however we only spent 2 years at $60 and will go to $65 next year with plans to be at $70 within 5 years.

With the state not setting rates, it's a lot more complicated than people think.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by Rich

You say "issues" like school are just making stuff up.

I have few schools playing JV2 or FR. Some don't have JV teams. Many of the MKE schools have 4 levels.

I'm not for a second excusing the low pay. But don't think there isn't an issue cause more rural districts do it.

Further, why shouldn't supply and demand not be part of the decision on what to pay people? Till we're all willing to take time off and send a message, what incentive besides good faith do conferences have to fix things?

I've been on the commish side for 3 years. 3-person was brought forward and approved in my first meeting (me along with the outgoing commish) for last season. So schools already increased their spend at the V level by 50% last season as we held the pay at the same level ($60). Expecting schools to then increase again immediately is a tough sell, however we only spent 2 years at $60 and will go to $65 next year with plans to be at $70 within 5 years.

With the state not setting rates, it's a lot more complicated than people think.

There's a lot couched in here, all respectable. I don't mean to be ignorant of the schools' plight. But I do think their budget plight is more perceived and ingrained then anything. It is solvable. Other states, many without state office rate-setting involvement, have solved this. We're just behind, I guess. Sounds like WA and SC are behind with us (actually a little worse).

I highlighted the red sentence for a reason. I think we may be on the verge of a breaking point already. I don't foresee many officials unionizing to force change, but I do see the supply of officials starting to get tapped out in the Milwaukee area. Last Monday an assignor posted an opening for a 5:30 JV girls game on Friday (original official had bugged out, presumably for a varsity game somewhere else). He sent the email again on Wednesday, and again on Thursday. No takers. On a busy Friday night there just aren't that many folks available. The game magically got filled at the last minute, but I'm sure it took begging and pleading by the assignor. I'm thinking....maybe if the assignor had just told the school, "Sorry, I've got no one available for your $40 JV game; you'll have to cancel the game," a message would have been sent. If that were to start to happen routinely, the assignor could tell the conference ADs, "Look, I'm trying to get the games filled, but you're just NOT making the fees attractive enough to new and veteran officials alike; consider $50 for JV and $70 for varsity and you'll attract new talent to the avocation and encourage upward desire. Meanwhile we'll be more encouraged to get involved in training and development in exchange for the pay increase."

Of course they'd fire the assignor, but you can only ignore the problem for so long. Eventually the chickens come home to roost.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

I think we may be on the verge of a breaking point already ... I do see the supply of officials starting to get tapped out in the Milwaukee area. Last Monday an assignor posted an opening for a 5:30 JV girls game on Friday .. He sent the email again on Wednesday, and again on Thursday ... On a busy Friday night there just aren't that many folks available ...

We're having similar problems here. We have about 250 officials covering about 75 high schools (most with boys, girls, freshman, junior varsity, varsity) as well as many middle schools. No competition here, IAABO is the only kid on the block for high school basketball. Even with subvarsity officials working freshman/junior varsity doubleheaders, if a couple of guys get injured, or sick, or decide to take a three day ski weekend up north, we're having trouble covering really busy nights, usually Fridays. Sometimes we have to assign varsity officials to junior varsity/varsity doubleheaders, something that is greatly frowned upon by athletic directors, and varsity coaches, who want fresh officials for their varsity games. Game fees for 2016/2017: varsity fee: $94.63, subvarsity fee: $61.39, almost all two person games.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

We're having similar problems here. We have about 250 officials covering about 75 high schools (most with boys, girls, freshman, junior varsity, varsity) as well as many middle schools. No competition here, IAABO is the only kid on the block for high school basketball. Even with subvarsity officials working freshman/junior varsity doubleheaders, if a couple of guys get injured, or sick, or decide to take a three day ski weekend up north, we're having trouble covering really busy nights, usually Fridays. Sometimes we have to assign varsity officials to junior varsity/varsity doubleheaders, something that is greatly frowned upon by athletic directors, and varsity coaches, who want fresh officials for their varsity games. Game fees for 2016/2017: varsity fee: $94.63, subvarsity fee: $61.39, almost all two person games.

I laugh at that. They want fresh officials and then use 2-person crews.

Cry me a river.

Hire 3 to work both JV/V and it helps with both "problems", doesn't it?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Rich

They want fresh officials and then use 2-person crews.

Years ago, if a junior varsity official didn't show up for a game (traffic, schedule error, etc.) and the varsity official was at the site, the varsity official had to get permission from both varsity coaches to jump into the junior varsity game.

The winningest, and most influential, coaches in the state coaches association, who play full court defense, and man to man defense, are erroneously afraid that their best players will get in more foul problems with three officials. The state coaches association has sway over the high school interscholastic sports governing body. A few urban rivalries have three persons crews, but otherwise three officials aren't used until the quarterfinals of the state tournament.

And, of course, it's a little bit about money.

Note: Officials fees, in all sports, are tied to the state average teacher salary increase every year. I've gotten a basketball fee raise every year for the past thirty six years. Next year, officials in all sports have decided to accept a fee freeze due to state budget reductions in local school funding.

[Mbilica]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Years ago, if a junior varsity official didn't show up for a game (traffic, schedule error, etc.) and the varsity official was at the site, the varsity official had to get permission from both varsity coaches to jump into the junior varsity game.

The winningest, and most influential, coaches in the state coaches association, who play full court defense, and man to man defense, are erroneously afraid that their best players will get in more foul problems with three officials. The state coaches association has sway over the high school interscholastic sports governing body. A few urban rivalries have three persons crews, but otherwise three officials aren't used until the quarterfinals of the state tournament.

And, of course, it's a little bit about money.

Note: Officials fees, in all sports, are tied to the state average teacher salary increase every year. I've gotten a basketball fee raise every year for the past thirty six years. Next year, officials in all sports have decided to accept a fee freeze due to state budget reductions in local school funding.

This is an interesting perspective. In my side of Connecticut, we have a few preps and one postgraduate school which hire 3 officials for every game. But those games really are at a higher level than the regular high school game.

The fees are interesting. Basketball costs a LOT less to a school than football, despite the fewer games in football. That is because in football, each of the 5, 6, or 7 on field officials get the same varsity fee as any varsity official in any other sport, not to mention the equipment and larger coaching staffs. Plus schools hire another official to work the clock and pay him or her approximately 2/3 of a varsity fee. (If only we had paid timers in basketball!) Yet, football is not nearly the kind of cash cow in CT compared to some other states.

I have long advocated that schools hire 3 officials for soccer, basketball, baseball, and softball. The ADs I talk to are actually in favor of it. It is worth the money to them. Our local middle school conference even voted to have 2 officials instead of 1 for JV middle school games. At every level, the game gas become more of a wide open game, with teams spreading their offense, running the full court press on defense, and shooting more shots from outside the arc than working it into the post. I think most people would easily see the benefit of paying a 3rd official. The issue isn't the fees, it's lack of enough referees. It is the same problem in soccer, where the state uses 2 man until the state quarterfinals (I believe). Just not enough refs...

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mbilica

The ADs I talk to are actually in favor of it ...

With a few exceptions (money), it's the same in my little corner of the state. Most athletic directors like the idea. As I stated in a previous post, it's the coaches (I used to belong to the Connecticut High School Coaches Association) who are slowing the progress of moving to three man crews, and the CIAC (state governing body) listens to the coaches. If all the coaches wanted it, and if officials were willing to be a little flexible with fees (and if we could recruit more officials), it would eventually happen here.

[BlueDevilRef]

Originally Posted by Mbilica

This is an interesting perspective. In my side of Connecticut, we have a few preps and one postgraduate school which hire 3 officials for every game. But those games really are at a higher level than the regular high school game.

The fees are interesting. Basketball costs a LOT less to a school than football, despite the fewer games in football. That is because in football, each of the 5, 6, or 7 on field officials get the same varsity fee as any varsity official in any other sport, not to mention the equipment and larger coaching staffs. Plus schools hire another official to work the clock and pay him or her approximately 2/3 of a varsity fee. (If only we had paid timers in basketball!) Yet, football is not nearly the kind of cash cow in CT compared to some other states.

I have long advocated that schools hire 3 officials for soccer, basketball, baseball, and softball. The ADs I talk to are actually in favor of it. It is worth the money to them. Our local middle school conference even voted to have 2 officials instead of 1 for JV middle school games. At every level, the game gas become more of a wide open game, with teams spreading their offense, running the full court press on defense, and shooting more shots from outside the arc than working it into the post. I think most people would easily see the benefit of paying a 3rd official. The issue isn't the fees, it's lack of enough referees. It is the same problem in soccer, where the state uses 2 man until the state quarterfinals (I believe). Just not enough refs...

I do a lot of fastpitch and I really don't think we need 3. Maybe 5 plays in an entire year could have needed a third guy. To me, most softball games that have three are just for "looks". A lot of the rotations are just a guy who was in a pretty good position moving to another good position and being replaced by a guy to have the same look. And if it meant getting paid less, then absolutely don't want it. I just don't think it is necessary on a 200 ft field.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Rich

I laugh at that. They want fresh officials and then use 2-person crews.

Cry me a river.

Hire 3 to work both JV/V and it helps with both "problems", doesn't it?

Sort of....with the same number of games and the same number of officials, every official (on average) will have to work 50% more games under a 3-person system than a 2-person system. So, the overall freshness benefit is debatable. I do think it still leans in favor of 3-person, but it isn't as dramatic as it would be if the number of officials weren't constrained.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Sort of....with the same number of games and the same number of officials, every official (on average) will have to work 50% more games under a 3-person system than a 2-person system. So, the overall freshness benefit is debatable. I do think it still leans in favor of 3-person, but it isn't as dramatic as it would be if the number of officials weren't constrained.

Well, it certainly creates opportunities for those who would struggle to get varsity schedules. For me it means I can work 3-person every day. The years where I worked only a portion that way were worse in that it was a different system every night, which was tough.

[just another ref]

We still do a mixture of 2 and 3 man, it's strictly up to the home school. But one thing is changing: My last 3 dates have been all 3 man tripleheaders, JV boys followed by girls and boys varsity. Before this year, only once had I ever done 3 man for JV.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Sometimes we have to assign varsity officials to junior varsity/varsity doubleheaders, something that is greatly frowned upon by athletic directors, and varsity coaches, who want fresh officials for their varsity games.

Two things here: First, are you saying that some think you can't work more than one game in a day and still be "fresh" enough for the second one?

Second, even if you only work one, you still have had all day to get tired doing something else. Most of us have day jobs, some obviously more strenuous than others.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Two things here: First, are you saying that some think you can't work more than one game in a day and still be "fresh" enough for the second one?

Second, even if you only work one, you still have had all day to get tired doing something else. Most of us have day jobs, some obviously more strenuous than others.

1) Yes.

2) Then it would be day job, game #1, and game #2.

Things are slowly changing. Athletic directors, and coaches, are realizing that our local board is having trouble assigning officials to cover all games, especially Friday afternoons, and nights. Most are now accepting of officials covering freshman/junior varsity doubleheaders, and rarely, even junior varsity/varsity doubleheaders.