The Official Forum - Ref kills live ball on inadvertent horn

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- - Ref kills live ball on inadvertent horn - sub? (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/102051-ref-kills-live-ball-inadvertent-horn-sub.html)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 996610)

The timer/scorer doesn't get to make that decision.

Correct alternative... wait until the home dribbles down and scores, then blow the horn. I get that. But, in this particular situation, I think I made the right decision. Middle school games are not the same as high school varsity. I think a fair ruling is better than letting the on court officials screw up and cause bigger problems. Keep in mind, I screwed over my own son's team here. I won't ever do that again, but I'm glad I did it this one time. I can't plead ignorance anymore.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 996485)

I agree it's not an NCAA situation.

I also claim that if it *were* an NCAA situation, that the ruling would be the same and that subs would be allowed in. And, I claim that this is covered by rule in both cases and that the official does not have any discretion to "make it fair" (or whatever specific words you used).

I also claim that your blanket statement, "The NCAA is specific about the last minute of the game will not allow subs on an inadvertent horn or whistle" is false. There are times -- most times -- where the sub is allowed. If you didn't mean it as a blanket statement, then I post my clarification only for those who might mistakenly read it that way.

(And, I'm still waiting for the case play you mentioned back in post #4)

The reality to this situation it was created by the table doing something they are not supposed to be doing.

I am also not home (have not been home since Friday afternoon as a lot of) so I did not bring my book with me. Either way, it does not matter, this situation is not specifically covered in the rulebook you have the right to make some decisions. I am not just bring in subs when a table created a situation that would not have been taken. Because a team might have been unfairly penalized (like bring in a sub that would not influence action when they would not have been coming into play). Case play or not, to me unless this specific situation is covered, you have the right to decide what is the right thing to do. Always has been that way and always will be that way.

Peace

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 996439)

... if the sub was otherwise allowed, the fact that there was a horn / IW does not restrict the sub ...

Agree. Unless there is a specific rule, or interpretation, that doesn't allow the substitution (multiple free throws, sit a tick, illegal equipment, etc.), there is no rule that allows an official to not allow a substitute enter the game in the original post situation. If a whistle is sounded, the clock is stopped, and the ball is dead, unless there is a rule that forbids substitutions in that situation, then I'm allowing the substitutes to enter. The rulebook, and case book, specifically, and clearly, tell us when to not allow a substitute to enter. This is not one of those situations.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 996609)

Wait for the horn and then the responsible official blows his/her whistle and beckons....on EVERY sub. There should be a horn whenever there's a substitute ready to report. If it doesn't come in a few seconds, then whistle the sub in without the horn and remind the timer that we need a horn.

I don't want the clock operator to think it's OK to NOT blow a horn. When I need it, there won't be one.

IIRC, in Ohio a few years back there was a POE or some sort of directive from the state that clock operators were to NOT use the horn on subs when the officials are already taking care of business. Relatedly, the have been on us about overusing our whistles, not for fouls and violations, but in situations such as this. On the other hand I seem to recall something in the rulebooks that addresses the timer and use of the horn. Time to read!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hartsy (Post 996729)

Ohio is in its own world with respect to mechanics and can't be used as an example elsewhere.

Substitution after Horn while ball is live

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 996438)

The sub is neither legal or illegal. If I stopped play because of an inadvertent horn, I would put back the ball in play with the same status of the sub when the horn was blown. So if subs could not come in when the horn went off, I would not allow a sub to come in after I have stopped play. But that is on the officials to ultimately decide. But I believe there is a case play that covers this, but I do not have that in front of me right now.

Peace

This came up again tonight. Live Ball, horn, whistle to stop player from traveling. Nothing in the rules book tells me not to allow the subs at the table in.
I’m unable to find the Case Play, but I do believe it’s out there maybe 8 years ago.. any help would be appreciated

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stillblind (Post 1015715)

If you blow the whistle, the subs come in (in NFHS). In NCAA, not so.