Ref kills live ball on inadvertent horn - sub?
 

NFHS:

Official bounces the ball to FT shooter A1, who is shooting his last awarded FT. While A1 has the ball, the clock operator buzzes the horn. All 10 players stop in confusion. C blows his whistle and has the FT shooter give the ball to the L. The clock operator indicates that it was an inadvertent horn. As L, holding ball, prepares to administer the FT, B2 rushes to the table to sub. C blows his whistle and beckons B2 into the game.

Legal or illegal substitution?

If the ball is dead and the clock is stopped when a sub reports, the sub comes in.

When a horn blows i will kill a play 9 times out of 10 because someone is going to get screwed up by it. If the ball becomes dead (i did not "ignore" the horn) subs should be let in. Having said that, I have killed a live ball and prevented a sub to come in from time to time. Not often, but some tables blow the horn the minute a coach yells "sub" with the kid nowhere near the reporting area.

I've killed the ball because of the horn but not allowed the sub in during that dead ball. That isn't your play. Technically, in high school, if i kill it i think i should let the sub in.

The sub is neither legal or illegal. If I stopped play because of an inadvertent horn, I would put back the ball in play with the same status of the sub when the horn was blown. So if subs could not come in when the horn went off, I would not allow a sub to come in after I have stopped play. But that is on the officials to ultimately decide. But I believe there is a case play that covers this, but I do not have that in front of me right now.

Peace

Please post it if you find it.

I agree with Adam -- if the sub was otherwise allowed, the fact that there was a horn / IW does not restrict the sub.

NCAA could be different in the last minute (but not in this specific case, I don't think)

The NCAA is specific about the last minute of the game will not allow subs on an inadvertent horn or whistle.

But if the situation is also not specifically addressed (if there is no interpretation or rule) then it is up to the officials (or Referee) to make that decision. But I would not allow a team to benefit by the mistake of the table.

Peace

(1) I know there's a difference between NCAAM and NCAAW on this (or at least there used to be), but I'm not sure it's not ALL IWs / horns that prohibit subs in the last minute.

(2) There is a specific rule in FED -- something along the lines of "other than the above (e.g., fist of multiple FTs, sub needing to wait for the clock to run), a sub is permitted anytime the ball is dead and the clock is stopped."

NCAA Men's A.Rs.
 

A.R. 45. After a successful field goal with 48 seconds left on the game clock, he timer sounds the game-clock horn for substitute A6 to enter the game.

Ruling: A6 shall not be permitted to enter. While the game clock is stopped after successful field goals in the last 59.9 seconds of play, only those substitutions permitted by rule are allowed. A team may request a timeout and then make substitutions anytime the ball is dead and the game clock is stopped. (Rule 3-6.1.h)

A.R. 46 gives a few more situations, but basically does not allow a sub in this situation unless a team requests a timeout. Otherwise, we ignore the horn.

I do not totally disagree, just think that this is not a situation that is completely covered under the rules and the Referee can decide what is fair. I think you have to weigh who benefited from this and why they would benefit from this. If we have an IH, I would like to make the situation go back to normal as soon as possible and not allow a sub when we would not have had the horn. If there is a huge delay or something that might have nothing to do with a horn being blown inadvertently, then I would have no issue with the sub. This is why I tell tables to often do not blow the horn at all for subs. They will even blow the horn just because the coach says, "sub sub sub sub" and the player is not off the bench. I am not giving a sub just because the horn was blown. During a FT is a little bit more laid back period, but still want to keep the integrity of the action that took place.

Peace

yes, but that has nothing to do with the OP. In the OP, even if it happened in the last 59.9, the clock was stopped for the foul / FTs and not for a made basket. All the restrictions on subs surround the made basket in the last 59.9 situations.

I was only referencing this because you mentioned it. This is also not an NCAA situation. And I think the NCAA has changed a rule and created an A.R in order to address this situation specifically. I am not sure this is addressed in that kind of detail with the NF. I think there was a case play, but I am not sure if it is still valid or in the current books.

Also, we do have the right to ignore the horn. But that requires some judgment or a way to determine that players did not react. I have an older video with a situation where a horn was blown in the Big East Tournament and players hardly reacted.

Peace

I rarely react to these horns. I generally find it easier to ignore on free throws. Everyone looks at me, I say "play on", and the ball never becomes dead. Problem solved.

But if I do decide to kill it, anyone who gets to the table as a sub is coming in. I have no rules support for deviating from the normal substitution rules (NFHS).

I agree it's not an NCAA situation.

I also claim that if it *were* an NCAA situation, that the ruling would be the same and that subs would be allowed in. And, I claim that this is covered by rule in both cases and that the official does not have any discretion to "make it fair" (or whatever specific words you used).

I also claim that your blanket statement, "The NCAA is specific about the last minute of the game will not allow subs on an inadvertent horn or whistle" is false. There are times -- most times -- where the sub is allowed. If you didn't mean it as a blanket statement, then I post my clarification only for those who might mistakenly read it that way.

(And, I'm still waiting for the case play you mentioned back in post #4)

Hold your breath. I'm sure the answer is coming. That's if your not dead from hokding your breath about the throw in play that allows defender to stand in certain place. Rip Bob.

For NFHS the rule is simple and clear. If the clock is stopped and the ball is dead, then a properly reported or reporting substitute shall be allowed into the game, barring the restrictions for multiple throw FTs and previously exiting players when the clock has not yet run.

Preventing a legal substitution in an NFHS contest is just making up your own rules. Quality officials don't do that.

In the OP, let's say the sub doesn't make it to the table before we have provided it to the shooter, but the table goes ahead and blows while it is at the disposal of the shooter. I've had vet partners who go ahead and kill it, but don't let the sub in.

Same thing if the sub doesn't get to the table before we hand it to the inbounder and the horn sounds during the inbound, or even right after the inbounds. I've had partners kill the play but not allow the sub.

I tend to agree with the thinking behind this; if the sub didn't make it in time, the table can't just blow the horn and stop play whenever they feel like it. This would be ripe for abuse by a friendly home table. While there may not be rules justification for this, it seems to be fair to all parties.

In the OP, if it truly was an inadvertent horn, and the coach sneaks a sub up there, I'm fine with that.

Your first play is the OP.

In both, the rules are clear -- let the sub in -- no matter how "unfair" it might seem to you.

If you don't want to let the sub in, then don't blow your whistle to kill the play. Tell the shooter / inbounder to "play on."

I wouldn't ignore the horn as the table might be trying to inform us of an error. A correctable error (and who wants those) might be avoided if we blow the whistle.

Yesterday, I was working as the clock operator in my son's middle school game and the officials (from my IAABO board) failed to award the 2nd free throw to the visiting team on the 8th foul. This was despite verbal confirmation between the table and the officials that there would be two shots. In addition, the lead official announced two shots when he bounced the ball to the shooter. So, when the home team grabbed the rebound of the missed first free throw, the visiting team coach and I were both surprised when the officials allowed the game to continue. When they crossed into the front court and were about to take a shot, the visiting coach was beside himself. So, I hit the horn hard and explained that they get one more free throw. So, the officials went back down to the other end and administeted the 2nd free throw. It ended up being a big play in the game.

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The official might be able to look at the table to assess what is happening (look for a sheepish grin, the "my bad" motion, waving the official to the table, etc.) And the table should wait until the ball is dead to signal.

I'm not sure why two FTs are awarded on the 8th foul, but even if there is an issue -- the table should wait until the ball is dead (in these instances).

Why wait? If they score and the ball is at the disposal of the thrower in, then we have passed the dead ball opportunity to correct the error, since the live ball was dead on the goal and live again. Plus, 2 points would be on the board that don't come off, even if the officials recognized the error somehow before the ball was at the disposal of the thrower in. The visiting team was in disarray because they expected another free throw. It would be patently unfair to allow the home team to take advantage of a correctable error once recognized. I chose to save the crew. The crew had no problem with me doing this. It prevented a potential Technical foul as well.

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there's a timeframe in between those two events to sound the horn.

My point is, allowing the score would have been unfair. It was 5 on 3.

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No, the OP was an inadvertent horn; official kills FT attempt; then coach sends sub to table and gets them in. My first play is coach sends sub to table late, horn blows while FT is in process, official kills.

In the first play the play was dead regardless of the sub. In the second, the table is trying to get a late sub in the game.

Ok, so the table controls when subs are late and can come in then? If we let the horn just blow randomly to let players in the game we are living in a lawless society and it will be anarchy. And if I just tell them to "play on" and somebody travels or double dribbles because they are confused by the random horn, then I have a mess on my hands. I will go for law and order over that.

This happens maybe twice per season, so its not a huge deal either way I guess, but if you get a table that is out of control with the horn we need to address.

Constant horns from the clock operator and coaches or bookkeepers yelling "SUB!" are 2 things I could do without. Players need to be at the table before play is ready to resume, and if I have already waved in the sub there is no need for a horn.

Same thing.

Bob, If there's not a scoring play in progress I'd like them to blow horn sooner than later. Just simpler to correct in my mind.

As far as sub question, If the ball is in the BC under no pressure I can and do say play on. But if it's in FC and horn blown I'll probably Kill it. Danger that someone froze. I know the rule says let them in but I will consider the circumstance. If home team coach yells sub and his scorer blows horn with ball in FC I will kill it and not let that sub in.

If it's just a screwup, or neutral table or for visitors I'd follow rule. I can think of two tables at this moment who will blow horn moment home coach yells sub. Visitors have to be at x etc. I just don't allow that if I'm worried the horn will have effect on play.

[QUOTE=ballgame99;996551]

Ok, so the table controls when subs are late and can come in then? If we let the horn just blow randomly to let players in the game [COLOR="RoyalBlue"]we are living in a lawless society and it will be anarchy[/COLOR

Lawless society...Anarchy...😺.

If you believe the clock operator is timing his horns to unfairly benefit one of the teams, you can have him or her replaced.

Wait for the horn and then the responsible official blows his/her whistle and beckons....on EVERY sub. There should be a horn whenever there's a substitute ready to report. If it doesn't come in a few seconds, then whistle the sub in without the horn and remind the timer that we need a horn.

I don't want the clock operator to think it's OK to NOT blow a horn. When I need it, there won't be one.

The timer/scorer doesn't get to make that decision.

Correct alternative... wait until the home dribbles down and scores, then blow the horn. I get that. But, in this particular situation, I think I made the right decision. Middle school games are not the same as high school varsity. I think a fair ruling is better than letting the on court officials screw up and cause bigger problems. Keep in mind, I screwed over my own son's team here. I won't ever do that again, but I'm glad I did it this one time. I can't plead ignorance anymore.

The reality to this situation it was created by the table doing something they are not supposed to be doing.

I am also not home (have not been home since Friday afternoon as a lot of) so I did not bring my book with me. Either way, it does not matter, this situation is not specifically covered in the rulebook you have the right to make some decisions. I am not just bring in subs when a table created a situation that would not have been taken. Because a team might have been unfairly penalized (like bring in a sub that would not influence action when they would not have been coming into play). Case play or not, to me unless this specific situation is covered, you have the right to decide what is the right thing to do. Always has been that way and always will be that way.

Peace

Substitutes ...
 

Agree. Unless there is a specific rule, or interpretation, that doesn't allow the substitution (multiple free throws, sit a tick, illegal equipment, etc.), there is no rule that allows an official to not allow a substitute enter the game in the original post situation. If a whistle is sounded, the clock is stopped, and the ball is dead, unless there is a rule that forbids substitutions in that situation, then I'm allowing the substitutes to enter. The rulebook, and case book, specifically, and clearly, tell us when to not allow a substitute to enter. This is not one of those situations.

IIRC, in Ohio a few years back there was a POE or some sort of directive from the state that clock operators were to NOT use the horn on subs when the officials are already taking care of business. Relatedly, the have been on us about overusing our whistles, not for fouls and violations, but in situations such as this. On the other hand I seem to recall something in the rulebooks that addresses the timer and use of the horn. Time to read!

Ohio is in its own world with respect to mechanics and can't be used as an example elsewhere.

Substitution after Horn while ball is live
 

This came up again tonight. Live Ball, horn, whistle to stop player from traveling. Nothing in the rules book tells me not to allow the subs at the table in.
I’m unable to find the Case Play, but I do believe it’s out there maybe 8 years ago.. any help would be appreciated

If you blow the whistle, the subs come in (in NFHS). In NCAA, not so.