Double Dribble or Out-of-Bounds?
 

Had this happen in a game this week and am hoping for a clear answer to take to my chapter meeting tonight:
Player A1 is in front court, ends dribble and is trapped by two defenders. Player A1 panics and attempts to dribble around defender. However, as player A1 begins dribble, the ball hits the defender's foot and goes out of bounds (it clearly was not an intentional attempt to throw it off of the defender) . My thought was that the defense should be awarded here for good play. The real question to me is determining what started the 2nd dribble attempt. Was it when the ball left player A1's hand or would the ball have had to hit the floor after leaving A1's hand to be considered a dribble? Thanks

It's not a double dribble until the second dribble attempt hits the floor and returns to the dribbler's hands.

If the second "dribble" attempt hit the defenders foot, then double dribble rules are off as they could have picked it right back up and started dribbling again because that could be treated the same as interrupted dribble.

I know that's right in my head, but sure I didn't use correct wording/terms/verbage. So.....Waiting for someone to tell me where/why I'm wrong. ha.

To me, this is out of bounds on team B. I know you said it was obvious they weren't trying to throw it off their foot, but that's what happened. The ball never hit the floor. The result is the same as throwing it off the opponent's foot. Ball to team A.

Don't overthink this stuff.

Irrelevant. Why are we worried about motives here... call what happens, not what the players may have meant to happen.


This "thought" normally gets us in trouble. We should not be rewarding good play or penalizing bad play. Instead, we should be adjudicating what we see in accordance with the rules.

Look up the definition of a dribble in Rule 4.

Thanks for the reply but can you point out where it states this in the rule book? As far as I read, a dribble begins when the ball is intentionally pushed or batted "to" the floor. I guess that we can assume that "to" implies that the ball actually reached the floor.

A dribble would have to constitute returning to the dribbler. Otherwise a bounce pass (ball is intentionally pushed to the floor) would be considered a dribble.

Rock'nRef is correct.

While we may wait to see where it goes, the dribble does begin when it leaves the hand being pushed the floor.

Incorrect. There is an NFHS Case Play which states that the player does not have to touch the ball again.

Bounce Pass ...
 

Did TSYouthSports mean an illegal dribble?

I would love to see this interpretation, otherwise, how could an official judge the difference between the start of another (illegal) dribble, and the start of a bounce pass?

9.5 SITUATION: A1 dribbles and comes to a stop after which he/she throws the
ball against: (a) his/her own backboard; (b) the opponent’s backboard; or (c) an
official and catches the ball after each. RULING: Legal in (a); a team’s own backboard
is considered part of that team’s “equipment” and may be used. In (b) and
(c), A1 has violated; throwing the ball against an opponent’s backboard or an official
constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is first to touch the ball after it
strikes the official or the board. (4-4-5; 4-15-1, 2; Fundamental 19)

4.15.4 Situation A

When A1 palmed/carried the ball, the dribble ended, and when he/she pushed the ball to the floor a violation occurred.

Palming/Carrying ...
 

Keep in mind that palming/carrying can be either an illegal dribble violation (usually by a stationary dribbler (no movement of pivot foot)), or a travel violation (moving pivot foot while holding (palming/carrying) the ball), depending on the details.

4.15.4 SITUATION A: As dribbler A1 attempts to change directions to avoid
guard B1, he/she allows the ball to come to rest in one hand in bringing the ball
from the right to the left side of the body. A1 pushes the ball to the floor in an
attempt to continue the dribble. RULING: When A1 palmed/carried the ball, the
dribble ended and when he/she pushed the ball to the floor a violation occurred.
(9-5)

What's your point?

There is another play where a player, after ending a dribble, throws the ball and it hits an official. Ruling is double dribble IF player first to touch it. Your play above and this play do not look like dribbles. Not a typical push down to the floor. Looks like pass so they dont immediately say double dribble. Only if player touches it first is it double.

In the palm/carry play it's double when player pushes it to the floor. I reconcile these by saying if what the player does after ending his first dribble...looks like a dribble....then it is a dribble. Violation without touching again. If what he does after he ends the dribble looks like something else then i will wait to see what happens. If he's first to touch, violation.

I will want to be sure that what the player is doing is dribbling again but if he pushes ball straight down or close to him with no one else around i will call that a dribble without him actually touching it again.

Agree.

If a player dribbles for the 2nd time without the ball returning to his hands and you don't call it double dribble, you won't hear a word from an assigner and you can always say your judgement was it was not a dribble.

But mess it up the other way and call a double dribble and be wrong you will most definitely hear about it.

Again, to me this is simple and it is being made complicated. I'm never going to call a double dribble if the 2nd dribble doesn't return to the hands, ever!

I read in another thread someone said we shouldn't think about intent while applying the rules. How are we to know with 100% certainty that a 2nd dribble attempt is not a pass, or a drop of the ball or whatever.

I disagree with that advice. Many times we are required to judge intent.

For example...a shot is or is not shot based not on whether the ball goes in or hits the rim but based on whether the official believes the player was trying to shoot the ball. We must absolutely judge intent in several situations.

A player should not get out of an illegal dribble after starting it because they realize they shouldn't have dribbled. Once they push it towards the floor, we have to judge if it was a pass or a dribble. Even if it goes to another player, it can still be a dribble (by rule)...that just means the other player intercepted the ball during the dribble.

By your argument, you could never be wrong...just say you judged it to be a dribble.

Waiting to see what happens next to see of you can somehow avoid blowing the whistle is not refereeing.

If what he does looks like a pass ...it is one unless he is the first person to touch it. If he simply drops the ball...it is a drop unless he is the first to touch it. If what he does is dribble then it's a violation without another touch.

Something like walks like duck, quacks like duck, it's a duck.....

I actually agree with you. Just stating something I saw previously where someone used that as an explanation

Many years ago, we had quite the looooong and spirited discussion on this. As was often the case, opinions ran quite strong. I was in quite the small minority at the time.



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