Looking for a Rule Reference

[Adam]

Need some help with a rule reference for those who don't mind.

Officials determine that A1 must have a sub (the reason doesn't matter). While we are waiting for the sub to report (the clock is ticking), B6 reports. The official makes him wait until the team A sub shows up.

Where's the rule backing for this, as opposed to waiving B6 in as we wait for A6?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Adam

Need some help with a rule reference for those who don't mind.

Officials determine that A1 must have a sub (the reason doesn't matter). While we are waiting for the sub to report (the clock is ticking), B6 reports. The official makes him wait until the team A sub shows up.

Where's the rule backing for this, as opposed to waiving B6 in as we wait for A6?

Adam:

I am eating lunch while I wait for Junior to get home of a Calculus exam before we leave for his college softball DH, so I would rather eat my Italian rather than dig through the rules BUT...

I do not believe that you will find anything prohibiting it. That said, my preference has been to not bring them in until the substitute for A1 has reported to the Scorer.

MTD, Sr.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Adam:

I am eating lunch while I wait for Junior to get home of a Calculus exam before we leave for his college softball DH, so I would rather eat my Italian rather than dig through the rules BUT...

I do not believe that you will find anything prohibiting it. That said, my preference has been to not bring them in until the substitute for A1 has reported to the Scorer.

MTD, Sr.

That may be the case.

I miss Italian food.

[Hugh Refner]

Originally Posted by Adam

While we are waiting for the sub to report (the clock is ticking),

Why is the clock ticking - or do you mean you are counting the time it is taking for the sub to get in?

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Adam

Need some help with a rule reference for those who don't mind.

Officials determine that A1 must have a sub (the reason doesn't matter). While we are waiting for the sub to report (the clock is ticking), B6 reports. The official makes him wait until the team A sub shows up.

Where's the rule backing for this, as opposed to waiving B6 in as we wait for A6?

I don't think there is either. in rule 3 and elsewhere you can't call a timeout once the replacement time starts running. player must be replaced. also, if the player being replaced was going to shoot FTs B6 can't come in until the last FT unless he was at the table prior to the need for replacement.

Maybe you are thinking of these. As you know, its good practice to wait to avoid table screwups but i don't recall a rule saying it isn't allowed.

[joelpoli]

For IAABO members: The 2014-15 IAABO Crew of two officials manual (at work copy) page 92 #8 states that when a player is directed to leave the game........and the 20 second interval of time is in place, the warning signal does not affect substitutions. Substitutes may be granted entry until the player has been replaced.

[Freddy]

NFHS Officials Manual:
"The warning signal does not affect substitutions on a player directed to leave the game, ie. disqualification, injury, blood. Substitutes may be granted until the player has been replaced and the ball is about to become alive."
(Though I don't know if this addresses the precise situation in question.)
(I'm waiting for someone to say, "Don't be a plumber", but I guess that retort only applies to questions I ask.)

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Freddy

NFHS Officials Manual:
"The warning signal does not affect substitutions on a player directed to leave the game, ie. disqualification, injury, blood. Substitutes may be granted until the player has been replaced and the ball is about to become alive."
(Though I don't know if this addresses the precise situation in question.)
(I'm waiting for someone to say, "Don't be a plumber", but I guess that retort only applies to questions I ask.)

1. yes it does.

2. I was really looking for a reference to back up the way I've been doing it. Seems it's been more of a best-practice. The delay doesn't hurt anyone (the subs will be in before the ball becomes live), but it appears there's no rule support there.

[Rob1968]

3-3-1 c. EXCEPTION: When a player is required by rule to be replaced prior to administering the free throw(s), then all other substitutes who have legally reported may also enter the game.

Case Book 3.3.1 SITUATION B and E may also be helpful.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Rob1968

Case Book 3.3.1 SITUATION B and E may also be helpful.

3.3.1 SITUATION B: A time-out is granted to Team A with play to resume by
administration of a free throw. A6 reports to enter after the timer’s warning signal
has sounded. Since A6 has reported too late to enter, could he/she enter if:
(a) either team is granted a time-out; (b) the resumption of play is delayed
because a player is injured getting into position for the free throw; or (c) Team A
is willing to “buy” A6’s way into the game with a technical foul? RULING:
Permissible in (a) and (b), but not in (c).

3.3.1 SITUATION E: B6 has properly reported to the scorer to enter the game.
A1 is then fouled in the act of a three-point try. Prior to the first attempt, A1 is
discovered to be bleeding: (a) B6 and A6, who is replacing bleeding A1, enter
prior to the first free-throw attempt; (b) substitutes A7 and A8 report to the scorer’s
table after B6 and A6 enter the game; or (c) all substitutes in (a) and (b) enter
the game when time-out is called by B3. RULING: In (a), A6 must replace bleeding-
player A1 before the free throw is administered, B6 may also enter because
he/she had legally reported to the table and another player had been directed to
leave the game by the official. In (b), A7 and A8 must wait until prior to the last
remaining free throw to enter the game. In (c), the time-out by B3 cannot be honored
until the substitute for A1 has properly reported and entered. Once the timeout
is granted, all substitutes may enter. A1 may remain in the game if Team A
requests and is granted a time-out.

[Raymond]

I think part of it is confusion with granting time outs in relation to subs as noted above by Billy. And I think the other part of it is a best practice so we don't lose track of what's going on with the subs.

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I think part of it is confusion with granting time outs in relation to subs as noted above by Billy. And I think the other part of it is a best practice so we don't lose track of what's going on with the subs.

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk

Yep. Got a lot of non-answers to my question, but it seems I thought a best practice had been codified at some point. It has not.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Adam

Need some help with a rule reference for those who don't mind.

Officials determine that A1 must have a sub (the reason doesn't matter). While we are waiting for the sub to report (the clock is ticking), B6 reports. The official makes him wait until the team A sub shows up.

Where's the rule backing for this, as opposed to waiving B6 in as we wait for A6?

There was an old ruling several years ago that instructed the official to hold all other subs until the one entering for the player directed to leave reported and then to bring them all in at the same time. I'll have to search for this, but I definitely remember it.

The current rules permit any subs to enter prior to the one coming in for the player directed to leave. There is now no need to make them wait.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

There was an old ruling several years ago that instructed the official to hold all other subs until the one entering for the player directed to leave reported and then to bring them all in at the same time. I'll have to search for this, but I definitely remember it.

The current rules permit any subs to enter prior to the one coming in for the player directed to leave. There is now no need to make them wait.

Nevada:

I do believe you are correct, and I would like to thank you in advance for climbing up into my attic to research it,.

MTD, Sr.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

There was an old ruling several years ago that instructed the official to hold all other subs until the one entering for the player directed to leave reported and then to bring them all in at the same time. I'll have to search for this, but I definitely remember it.

The current rules permit any subs to enter prior to the one coming in for the player directed to leave. There is now no need to make them wait.

Well at least I can now understand the genesis of my understanding.