Four questions
 

Some things creating some arguments.

1) A1 jumps to attempt a three-point shot but the ball immediately slips out of his hands and goes backwards and away from the basket. He returns to the floor and takes 2-3 steps to get to the ball where he taps the ball to a teammate. Ruling?

2) A1 jumps to attempt a three-point shot but the ball immediately slips out of his hands and goes backwards and away from the basket. He returns to the floor and takes 2-3 steps to get to the ball where he grabs the ball regaining control. Ruling?

3) A1 jumps and releases the ball on a try. The ball is in the air when A2 shoves B1 and the official blows the whistle. After the whistle is blown the ball goes through the basket. Does the basket count?

4) A1 attempts a try near the basket. In a legitimate attempt to block the shot defender B1 misses the ball and slaps the backboard. As a result of the slap the backboard is moving. The ball goes off the glass, hits the moving rim, and bounces out. Ruling?

1. Sounds like a fumble. You can always go and retrieve your fumble after you have ended your dribble, provided you don't dribble again.

2. Same as play 1

3. Yes

4. Play on

1 & 2, allow player to recover fumble, just can't dribble again.

3. yes of course.

4. as long as the backboard wasn't struck in attempt to knock the ball off of the ring (very unlikely) you play on.

Re: 1) and 2) see 4-21 FUMBLE and Case Book 4.44 SITUATION B

Re: 3) see Basketball Rules Fundamentals 2. and Rule 6-7, EXCEPTION a.

Re: 4) see Case Book 10.3.4

These citations may not settle all of the idiosyncrasies your companions may invent in your conversations, but the Rules Book, and Case Book are always a good starting point.

No argument on here. I agree with all of the previous responses.

Jurassic would have disagreed and been correct.

In #1 and #2: If the player had not dribbled prior to the attempted shot, the player would be allowed to dribble after recovering the fumble.

In 1&2 if you deem it a legal shot attempt then legal, otherwise violations on the shooter. An airborne shooter can only do 2 things shoot or pass, short of that or a defender touching the ball it's a violation in my book.

It's June, and I'm far away from being in "rules mode," but I wouldn't cite 4.44B for 1 and 2. In those plays above the ball is clearly slipping out of the shooter's hands. They are not "trys" under the rules so team control is not lost. 4.44 B allows the player to run and recover a "try", dribble etc because player and team control is lost. That is the basis of that play. So I think it is different than what we see in the OP 1 and 2.

Again, I'm not in rules mode and I know one of the arguments is that when a player jumps to shoot there's language saying he must shoot or pass etc. (he can also call timeout). The play id cite is the one where the player ends his dribble and fumbles it away. He is allowed to go retrieve it. We know that when I end a dribble I'm supposed to pivot, shoot or pass etc.(timeout also). That case play allows the player to go get the ball if it was actually "fumbled." accidental loss of player control.

If the ball slips out of the shooters hands and goes backward---truly a "fumble" ACCIDENTAL why would we not let him go retrieve it? The player who ends the dribble isn't supposed to be able to move the ball to another location on court by himself but we allow it if it was accidental/fumble. Why treat the shooter differently? If it is truly a fumble/accidental. Personally, I'm thinking the ACCIDENTAL nature of the loss of player control is the key not whether the player has ended the dribble or is shooting.

Anyway, this is off top of my head. There may be other plays that i'm not thinking of or interps etc. thx

We agree. Your first paragraph, above, and my references, help set the parameters for the discovery of what is directly pertinent, in the discussions/arguments to which the OP alluded. Most of the discussions regarding the topics at hand, involve the different legal/illegal actions after a fumble, as compared to those following an unsuccessful shot attempt.
Some persons may also differentiate between a fumble by an airborne player and a player in contact with the floor, as well as whether a dribble has occurred, before the loss of ball control, for example, whether the fumble by the airborne player should be considered as the start of a/another dribble, when the player is thereafter, first to touch the ball.

I know. Most of my comments were directed to the issue deecee raised. I'm just not computer literate enough to put quotes from separate people on same reply…...

I can't completely disagree with your logic, nor would I fault an official for allowing this (BTW if my partner allows this in a game and I am in the same position I would follow his/her lead). However, with that being said and airborne shooter is only "allowed" 2 actions (shoot or pass) otherwise we have a violation.

Since the rulebook treats a player who has gone airborne very differently I do not see why the concept for a player who has not gone airborne and loses the ball "fumble" would apply.

In all honesty at the varsity level or above a player going for a shot isn't just going to lose control as described so I dont really have to worry about this. I may expect this at a lower level of play like middle school or lower.

Obviously a player ending dribble, standing on floor etc is physically different from shooting a basketball. I think that's not the right focus. The player on ground has rules that do not allow him to move the ball from location to another without someone else touching, shooting etc. He's allowed to go from point A to B if he fumbles the ball. Again, why apply it differently? The physical acts are different but both are Accidental/fumble losses of control. When I have time I will search Jurassic posts. RIP Jurassic

All he would have done was belittle the person who disagreed with him rather than do much to support his point...so I wouldn't put much weight into anything he said.

A fumble is an exception to all of the normal rules that limit what a player can do. It isn't integral to the main rules but the rules/cases around fumbles establish that travel rules and such are excepted when a player fumbles.

Let's Go To The Videotape ...
 

4-41: Shooting, Try, Tap
ART. 1 The act of shooting begins simultaneously with the start of the try
or tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight, and includes the airborne
shooter.
ART. 2 A try for field goal is an attempt by a player to score two or three
points by throwing the ball into a team’s own basket. A player is trying for goal
when the player has the ball and in the official’s judgment is throwing or
attempting to throw for goal. It is not essential that the ball leave the player’s hand
as a foul could prevent release of the ball.
ART. 3 The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually
precedes the release of the ball.

Are we 100% certain that situation 1 and 2 do not represent trys?

When I catch the ball and start to raise it up to shoot or pass..and then defender hits my arm you as referee have to make judgment. Was I shooting or passing. If I start bringing ball up and mean to shoot or pass...but it slips out of my hand...it is a slip/fumble. It was going to be a try or pass but it ended up a "slip/fumble." Not a try

Attempt ???
 

Sounds good, but I'm still hung up on the word "attempt", both in sj's post, and in the written rule. sj is actually calling this a shot attempt. In sj's (an official) "judgment" the player is "attempting to throw for goal", words right there in Rule 4-41.

He is "attempting" to try for goal. If he's fouled before ball slips give him 2. If the ball slips..he was "attempting" to try for goal but it is not a try. Slip. Attempting a try and bring a try are fifferent here....

Attempt An Attempt ???
 

4-41: Shooting, Try, Tap
ART. 1 The act of shooting begins simultaneously with the start of the try
or tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight, and includes the airborne
shooter.
ART. 2 A try for field goal is an attempt by a player to score two or three
points by throwing the ball into a team’s own basket. A player is trying for goal
when the player has the ball and in the official’s judgment is throwing or
attempting to throw for goal. It is not essential that the ball leave the player’s hand
as a foul could prevent release of the ball.
ART. 3 The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually
precedes the release of the ball.

Let's try it this way. If I have the ball on offense, in the paint and jump with it I can make it look to you, the referee and the world, that I'm going to shoot it. I may be thinking pass the entire time. If I am fouled at that moment you have to make a judgment on whether I was attempting to shoot or not. If I'm not fouled you don't have to make that judgment yet. If instead of shooting it, I dump it down to A2 are you going to start the 3 count in lane over? No. I didn't shoot it, I passed it so team control continues.

In the OP the player starts up with the ball and it slips and flies backwards. If there's a foul while he is going up etc you have to make a judgment at that time as to what you think he was or wasn't doing. If there isn't a foul, wait and see what he does with the ball. If it slips and flies behind him it's a fumble. Team control continues. If he releases it and it looks like a try to you then that's what it is.

In summary--a fumble is a fumble. A try is a try....:)

We are paid the big bucks to determine if a player was passing or shooting. The expectation when a player goes airborne and it's towards the basket (or they are open and facing the basket) it's a shot attempt. 9999 out of 10000 times it's clear as day. I'm ok getting that 1 time wrong.

Some are comparing this to fouling situations, but is that right? The ruling for when a player is fouled (during a shot or not) is not necessarily the same as when a player fumbles the ball. Right?

What I am saying is that if a player is at the top of the key, goes up with ball and looks like he is going to shoot it, but the ball slips out of his hands and flies behind him that is not a try and a loss of team control. That's a fumble. If the ball went backward into the BC and offense was first to touch it i would call BC violation. He was going to shoot it but he didn't get a shot off. it slipped. I watch the whole play. Just because he started a motion upward with the ball that could be interpreted as a shot doesn't mean that everything that follows IS a shot/try, imo. The ball in the OP was fumbled backwards. I don't call that a try and thus a loss of team control. thx

Once the ball is no longer in player control and it was not released on a try, the player is no longer attempting to score and it is no longer a try. The player is also not an airborne shooter because he/she didn't release the ball on a try.

For A Split Second ...
 

4-41-4: The try ends when the throw is successful, when it is certain the
throw is unsuccessful, when the thrown ball touches the floor or when the ball
becomes dead.

In the case of the fumbled (slipped) "attempt", was it ever a try, and if so, it no longer is a try when it was "certain" that the throw is "unsuccessful"?

Couldn't it have been a try for the split second that the player had the ball in his hand, as determined by the official ("A1 jumps to attempt") to be an attempt, but then the try ends a split second later when the ball is fumbled (slips)?

Remember, in the official’s judgment, if the player is attempting to throw for goal, then that, by definition, is a try, not matter how pretty, ugly, successful, or unsuccessful the attempt may be.

In any case, it's all academic because if the try is never released, then team control doesn't end.

Unless, of course, somebody tries to convince us that the slip (fumble) was a "release".

https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.M...=0&w=200&h=161

See what Cameron said. Watch the whole play. If there is a foul while player is going up then you have to make a decision. Otherwise wait to see what happens and that will tell you what to do. Again, a fumble is a fumble....I'm fine with these debates but you might consider PM ing some folks. I think, at least on this issue, you might be bringing more confusion... Thx

Sometimes A Fumble Is Just A Fumble ...
 

Agree. But can a try, i.e., an attempt to throw for a goal (habitual throwing movement to start a try), precede a fumble (slip)?

Looks like in the video the official called an illegal dribble violation. Maybe because white touched the ball twice before it hit the floor? I want to make sure that I understand the possible interpretations of the OP that are being discussed in this thread.

First, A1 was attempting a try and it ended very badly in a fumble. Nevertheless, because A1 was attempting a try he could recover (rebound) the ball and dribble (even if he had dribbled before).

Second, A1's fumble was not a try for goal, but because it was a fumble he could recover the ball and dribble (if he had not dribbled before).

Third, A1 was an airborne shooter, and his only options were to pass or attempt a try. If in the official's opinion, the fumble was not a try then it would be a violation for A1 to recover the ball. (Presumably, because this would be a traveling violation because A1 started a dribble with his pivot foot off the floor?)

Thanks.

Shakespeare's Hamlet Soliloquy Quoted On The Forum ??? Boom Goes The Dynamite ...
 

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/qFp0sZDOe9M" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Of course it's a try. It's an attempt to throw for a goal (habitual throwing movement to start a try).

Was the try released, which would have ended team control? Aye, there's the rub.

I, for one, believe that the try was released. It was an ugly, unsuccessful release, but it was a release.

Team control ends on the release of a try. White 3 can legally recover the ball at any time, even legally taking steps to do such, and can legally do anything with it, pass, shoot, dribble, or request a time out.

To play Devil's advocate, some might say that the try ends when it is certain the throw is unsuccessful, that the fumble came before the release, thus ending the try before the release, which maintained team control for the White Team. In this case White 3 could legally recover the ball, even legally taking steps to do such, because a player can always recover an accidental, unintentional fumble, but White 3 may be limited to what he can legally do next depending on what preceded the accidental, unintentional fumble. In this case he already lifted his pivot foot to shoot, so the Devil probably (having trouble finding a rule citation for this) wouldn't allow him to legally start a new dribble.

But I'm not the Devil, I'm only his advocate, and as Flip Wilson used to say, "The Devil made me do it".

Lost in the fumble discussion is an interesting point about #4. I agree that in NFHS this is nothing. Many HS coaches think it's BI, and this may be in part because (correct me if I'm wrong) in NCAA it IS BI.

I believe that was an NCAA rule addition about four years ago, no?

NCAA 9.15.AR2.5
Causes the basket or backboard to vibrate when the ball is on or within the basket or the backboard and/or is on or in the cylinder.

HS no call, NCAA BI.

I had a BV HS game last year where I was L in a fast break and had this play partner called the T. There was about 3-4 minutes left of a close rivalry game. I didn't think it was a T so I went to him before he reported and asked if he thought it was a block attempt (which I thought it was - ball and block attempt were on the same side of the basket and I thought the player was close to blocking the ball, he did hit the backboard very hard). His reply was "no" so there was nothing else to discuss further IMO. Coach was irate and asked me and I told him we discussed it and we agree that it was not an attempt to block the shot.

I think the backboard is still shaking to this day.

Let's change the scenario a bit. Just want to see the right way to handle this:
You approach your partner with your question and his answer is, "Yes, but that doesn't matter," thereby revealing a misinterpretation of the rules.

Do you let him hang with it or try to get him to rescind the T (is that even possible)?

I would make my case like hell that the T was in error and it should be an inadvertent whistle. If he wants to stick with the T I am ok with that because it's his decision but I will make it clear that:

1) He will have to deal with the coach(es) regarding the call
2) If I get a call from the assignor or a higher up that I will tell him my side and what was discussed and that the T was entirely his call

IOW I couldn't back an incorrect application of the rule and he can stick his neck out but all the blowback is on him. Realistically some crap will fly on to me too by default but there is only so much I could or can do at that point.

My response to a coach would be "You will have to ask my partner about the T".

Good to hear from you, SJ. Glad to see you're still kicking.

1 & 2 are fumbles. A fumble is an unintentional/accidental act. So for someone to say all the player can do is shoot or pass, those are intentional acts and it doesn't apply to this scenario. Also, if the player had not dribbled prior to jumping, certainly he can dribble.

In 3, since the shot has been released, the basket counts. Only a player control foul causes a shot in flight to become dead.

4 is nothing.

Lah me. (in memory of Jurassic because he had a particular part in the previous debates on this)

In post #28 of this thread I provided the link to a previous discussion on this very action. That thread includes the correct NFHS ruling, which is traveling. The NFHS does not permit an exception for a fumble in this case as the NCAA does.

The ruling given below is the most recent issued by the NFHS and nothing has come out stating otherwise. You can also find this in our past interps thread.

SUPPLEMENT #1 (11/9/00)
SITUATION 1: A1 is an airborne shooter preparing to release the ball on a shot attempt. Instead of releasing the ball on the try, A1 fumbles the ball (while still in the air) and drops it. A1 then returns to the floor and secures possession of the ball. RULING: Traveling violation. While airborne the bail must be released for a try or pass. (4-43-3a; 9-4)

Nice Citation, Thanks ...
 

... because that player traveled by starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor?

Also, keep in mind, that in SITUATION 1 (above) there is no question as to whether, or not, the ball has been released on a try. It hasn't ("preparing to release", "Instead of releasing"). Several posts in this thread (including posts by yours truly), have questioned whether there was a release, or not. The fact that there was no release in SITUATION 1 simplifies the play.

Still a great citation. Thanks Nevadaref.

I choose to agree with those that say this is not a violation. If you intentionally allow the ball to drop, as stated in this play, you didn't fumble it.


A fumble is not a dribble.

4.15 COMMENT:

It is not possible for a player to travel during a dribble. A player is not dribbling while slapping the ball during a jump, when a pass rebounds from his/her hand, when he/she fumbles, or when he/she bats a rebound or pass away from other players who are attempting to get it. The player is not in control under these conditions. It is a dribble when a player stands still and bounces the ball. It is not a dribble when a player stands still and holds the ball and touches it to the floor once or more than once.

The play says the player FUMBLES the ball. That word it not ambiguous at all. How did you get intentionally drops from FUMBLES?

The play that Nevada cites, which has never made its way to a casebook, says the player "fumbles AND DROPS" the ball. The argument is that the player fumbled the ball, controlled it again AND dropped it. In order to "drop" something you have to have it. They could have simply said player "fumbles the ball and then goes and retrieves." They didn't. They said "and drops." Those 2 words mean something.

Frankly, as I said earlier, there isn't any logical reason to treat a fumble different when player goes up to shoot. I believe "accidental loss of player control" is what matters. If accident, let them retrieve it.

I don't think he intended to say that. I believe he is saying that for it to be a travel, if you go by the rule, the player would have to intentionally release the ball.

That's what he was saying, and I don't see how his point was at all ambiguous.

Thank you gentlemen.